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Pima
7th April 2010, 05:58 PM
A lot of threads are flying now about actual time commitments. I would like to read from the cadets/candidates what they believe their actual commitment is?

For example, do you think that accepting a rank means you owe NO commitment? Do you believe if you accept a military move after 3 yrs in service that you can still dive at 5? Do you believe that if you use the military to get a Masters degree you will not owe back time?

In other words do YOU believe you can do a 5 and dive? (Caveat:UPT).

Eagle 1
7th April 2010, 09:26 PM
As a USAF pilot, I'd incur a 10 year commitment after training. I plan on making it a career, but by the sounds of that, it seems like at least 12-13 years.

SamAca10
7th April 2010, 09:50 PM
I knew that there was a commitment each time you advanced in rank, but I don't know how much that time commitment is. Would anyone happen to know?

I was planning at least serving the full 8 year commitment .

Isn't it possible for SA grads to use the post 9/11 GI Bill to pay for their Master's Degrees? I think LITS mentioned something once on SAF

raimius
8th April 2010, 03:28 AM
Commitment for UPT (10 years, after gaining wings)
Commitment for PCS or promotion
Commitment for graduate studies (based on time of study and/or date of last class)

KveTina
8th April 2010, 03:41 AM
About how many people actually do the five and dive? Is it really that many people who are really planning on five and diving?

Mikeandcris
8th April 2010, 04:17 AM
Is the length of commitment a moving target based on the needs of the military and the whims of the administration?

flieger83
8th April 2010, 05:58 AM
If the commitment is a huge concern...

Be glad you're not French and attending L'École de l'Air...or however its spelled (I do decent Russian and good Spanish, but French...not since 3d grade).

Their commitment is 25 years after graduation.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

TheKnight
8th April 2010, 07:53 AM
About how many people actually do the five and dive? Is it really that many people who are really planning on five and diving?

My current plan is to do so. However, I'm open to the fact that in 9 years my mind may have changed. When I first started applying to WP I was pretty sure I'd leave as soon as my commitment was finished. However, now that I've learned more about the Army etc etc etc. I'm pretty sure (not certain) I may stay longer than that.

I'm not really concerned about it. My plans for the future (although I love what I plan to do) are not fixed to the point where I would be upset about not being able to leave after the 8 year commitment.

Pima
8th April 2010, 12:49 PM
Sam,

Unless they have changed it recently. Accepting a promotion (actually pinning on) is a 3 yr commitment. PCSing and PME are also 3 yrs too. However, they can all run concurrent. For example you pin on O3 at 4 yrs, you now can dive at 7 yrs. Register for your last Masters at 4 1/2 yrs you are in until 7 1/2. Move at 5 and you can dive at 8.

The exception is you can turn down a PCS aka NON VOL move, and that means you are not taking the extra commitment. However, you will still move and you have officially informed the incoming base that you intend to dive. We have seen many guys do this at various markers. For example, it is 10 yrs for UPT once you get your wings (realistically that means 11). Accept Major at 9 and you can leave at 12. If they come to you at 10 yrs 9 mos and order you to move, if you accept it you are stuck until 14. You can say Non Vol, you will still move, but only spend 1 yr and still get out at 12.

There still is the rule that the military(at least AF) will not force you to move if you have less than 1 yr commitment left. That is why I said 10yrs and 9 mos. they hit you with orders, because they can still force you to go.

One other thing to cadets and young officers, just because the orders are cut for 3 yrs it does not mean you will do exactly 36 mos. It can vary, for example Bullet had a 3 yr tour assignment for AK. We arrived with 3 other fliers. We were the only ones to leave at 35 mos. One was hit with orders and left at 30, another left at 42. We all went to the exact same follow on in NC. The final one went desk and left at 48.

BTW one reason I started this thread was to enlighten people that 5 and dive due to military regs is not as easy as it sounds. PCS at the 3 yr marker and you owe 6. If you think about it, most assignments are 3 yrs, that means you are on the hook. I want people who think that they are going to do 5 and bolt to realize they not only need to plot their career, but also their commitments (PCS, Masters, Promotion) if they want to dive at 5. Basically if you want to dive at 5, you will refuse O3 rank. O2 is at the 2 yr marker so you will finish that commitment at 5.

bruno
8th April 2010, 12:54 PM
AirForce Instruction 36-2501 "Officer Promotions and Selective Continuations" reads:

3.15. Active Duty Service Commitment for Promotions. No Active Duty Service Commitment will be incurred for officer promotions (see paragraph 3.14. for restrictions on retirement eligibility )

Pima
8th April 2010, 01:26 PM
Bruno, you did read the 1st part from that instruction is for GENERALS, not company or field. It is stated in the first paragraph that this is for FLAG.

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI36-2501.pdf

futurepilot22
8th April 2010, 02:27 PM
PIMA, I'm reading the document you linked, and while the first paragraph mentions General boards, I don't think that 3.15-which is what Bruno was citing- was referring to only General boards. I could be wrong, though.

Just_A_Mom
8th April 2010, 02:45 PM
futurepilot22 - you are not wrong. bruno is correct.
someone else is sadly mistaken and keeps attempting to impart incorrect information.

sprog
8th April 2010, 03:01 PM
futurepilot22 - you are not wrong. bruno is correct.
someone else is sadly mistaken and keeps attempting to impart incorrect information.

Agreed, Bruno is correct.

Just_A_Mom
8th April 2010, 03:18 PM
On the Army side - here is the document detailing the Active Duty Service Obligations as of Aug 2009.
http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r350_100.pdf

Read at your leisure.

raimius
8th April 2010, 03:19 PM
RULE
If the ADSC incurring event is for:

1 EAD from a service academy 5 years

2 EAD for all other commissioning sources 4 years for Line and
JAG corps officers, 3 years for Chaplains

3 EAD from AFROTC 4 yrs

4 EAD for recall to active duty Equal to DOS on EAD orders 31 AF Form 24 or 125

5 Direct Accession/Minimum Term of Service 3 yrs (notes 10,11, and 12) 31 AF Policy

----------------
6 PCS (CONUS to CONUS) 2 years (note 5) 11 DoDD 1315.7
7 PCS (Overseas to CONUS) 1 year 11 DoDD 1315.7
8 PCS (CONUS to Overseas) Equal to initial DEROS or subsequent changes to DEROS 11 DoDD 1315.7
----------------
*9 Promotions

Enlisted: 2 years for promotion to E-7, E-8. 3 years for promotion to E-9.
Commissioned officers: No ADSC required. Federal law requires O-4s to serve 6 months and O-5s and O-6s to serve 3 years to retire in grade. (see note 13)

----------------
*10 Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT). (Only those who started training on or after 1 Oct 99) 10 years (see notes 1,2, 14 and 15) 80 10 U.S.C 653(a), AF Policy

*11 Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT). (Prior to 1 Oct 99)
8 years (see notes 1, 2, 14 and 15) 04 10 U.S.C 653(a)

*12 Undergraduate Navigator Training (UNT) 6 years (see notes 1, 2, 14 and 15) 04 10 U.S.C 653(a)

*13 Air Battle Manager (ABM) Ground Training (W-ABM-AMS-TN) 3 years (see notes 1, 2, 12, 14 and 15)
Straight from AF e-publishing.

Although there is still some confusion on the part of many (including people at USAFA), that should solve the debate.

futurepilot22
8th April 2010, 03:26 PM
From JAM's link:

2–5. Promotion
a. A warrant officer who accepts a promotion to the grade of CW3, CW4, or CW5, incurs a 2-year ADSO. This
ADSO begins on the date of promotion and must be served before voluntary retirement.
b. A commissioned officer who accepts a promotion does not incur an ADSO. However, an officer in the grade of
lieutenant colonel or colonel must serve in that grade for not less than 3 years from the date of promotion to voluntarily
retirement in that grade unless waived under some other provision of law. An officer promoted to the grade of
lieutenant, captain, or major must serve in that grade for not less than 6 months from the date of promotion to
voluntarily retire in that grade.

It would appear the question has been answered...

Just_A_Mom
8th April 2010, 06:57 PM
Isn't it possible for SA grads to use the post 9/11 GI Bill to pay for their Master's Degrees?

Yes. The benefits are graduated and full benefits are received after three years of service. The service time clock for an SA or ROTC grad does not start ticking until their SA or ROTC active duty commitment is fulfilled. 5 years for SA and generally 3 or 4 years for ROTC.

here is a info sheet from the VA:
http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/Post-911_General_Info(2).pdf

Just_A_Mom
8th April 2010, 07:00 PM
About how many people actually do the five and dive? Is it really that many people who are really planning on five and diving?
a good number - this varies according from academy to academy and what wars we are fighting.
Cadets who insist they will five and dive sometimes end up making it a career and some of those who insist they will make General will five and dive.
While its good information to know, it's way to early to worry about any of this, IMO.

Just_A_Mom
8th April 2010, 07:04 PM
Is the length of commitment a moving target based on the needs of the military and the whims of the administration?

No. Not really. The commitment is really 8 years of which 5 years are required to be on active duty. For ROTC scholarship winners it's 3 or 4 years AD. Some ROTC cadets will serve all eight years in the Guard or Reserves. Just remember every contract is 8 years.

After the AD time (or Reserve/Guard) is served the remainder can be served in the Reserves (or Guard) or IRR.
They can keep you longer than 5 years Active Duty if they need you. The can and has happened in the Army a few years ago in the height of the Iraq war. Also, during war time you can be called up out of IRR. Rare but it has happened.

The Government does not promote a bunch of officers on a whim to force them to remain in the serivce.

LineInTheSand
9th April 2010, 12:39 AM
Yes. The benefits are graduated and full benefits are received after three years of service. The service time clock for an SA or ROTC grad does not start ticking until their SA or ROTC active duty commitment is fulfilled. 5 years for SA and generally 3 or 4 years for ROTC.

here is a info sheet from the VA:
http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/Post-911_General_Info(2).pdf

With the exception of the Coast Guard Academy....no need to wait for the end of the 5 year commitment.

Sweetness62
9th April 2010, 01:04 AM
LITS - what exactly is the difference for graduates of the USCGA?

LineInTheSand
9th April 2010, 01:39 AM
They don't have to wait 5 years.

Not sure why.

kp2001
9th April 2010, 06:03 AM
They don't have to wait 5 years.

Not sure why.

(I'm going to assume this is true)

It's probably has something to do with the different funding source for the CGA, or even more likely whoever wrote the law forgot (didn't know about) the CGA.

Luigi59
9th April 2010, 11:58 AM
They don't have to wait 5 years.

Not sure why.

They don't have to wait 5 years........for what? :confused:

Just_A_Mom
9th April 2010, 12:33 PM
Luigi - post #21.

LITS - I thought the Coast Guard paid for grad school for nearly every officer anyway. If they do then there is no need to use the New GI Bill. You can just keep it in your back pocket and use it later on.

LineInTheSand
9th April 2010, 02:43 PM
Luigi - post #21.

LITS - I thought the Coast Guard paid for grad school for nearly every officer anyway. If they do then there is no need to use the New GI Bill. You can just keep it in your back pocket and use it later on.

You thought wrong. Most of the people I know went through grad school on their own. Out of 205 classmates, maybe 10 went to grad school already with maybe another 10 going in the next few years.

Luigi, 5 years before you get the full support as an active duty member under the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

LineInTheSand
9th April 2010, 02:45 PM
(I'm going to assume this is true)

It's probably has something to do with the different funding source for the CGA, or even more likely whoever wrote the law forgot (didn't know about) the CGA.



Right, I would love to know. Sometimes its nice to be forgotten.

Just_A_Mom
9th April 2010, 04:14 PM
You thought wrong. Most of the people I know went through grad school on their own. Out of 205 classmates, maybe 10 went to grad school already with maybe another 10 going in the next few years.

Luigi, 5 years before you get the full support as an active duty member under the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

Interesting because when I went on a tour at the CGA they emphasized graduates education opportunities - paid for by the Coast Guard. Claimed that it was more than any other service, etc. Big selling point.
Was that off base?

So where does it say what the Post 9/11 GI bill qualifications for Coast Guard member are?

LineInTheSand
9th April 2010, 05:36 PM
Interesting because when I went on a tour at the CGA they emphasized graduates education opportunities - paid for by the Coast Guard. Claimed that it was more than any other service, etc. Big selling point.
Was that off base?

So where does it say what the Post 9/11 GI bill qualifications for Coast Guard member are?

No idea JAM.

I know of more than one CGA grad who has not served their 5 year obligation yet who were found to qualify for the Post 9/11 GI Bill (the one you call "new GI bill").

I would love to know who told you that. Yes, graduate school is important, but if I take my shoes off I can count on two hands and two feet the number of classmates I have had who have already attended grad school or who will attend grad school in the next year. Tuition assistance and having 100% of grad school paid for by the Coast Guard are different monsters. A number of grad school assignments for various ranks are available each year.

Luigi59
9th April 2010, 06:27 PM
Interesting because when I went on a tour at the CGA they emphasized graduates education opportunities - paid for by the Coast Guard. Claimed that it was more than any other service, etc. Big selling point.
Was that off base?

No, you are not off base. 80% (4 out of 5) USCGA graduates continue their education at graduate school, with the USCG typically paying all costs (in exchange for extra service commitment - 3 months for every 1 month in the first year, then a one-to-one payback). It (80%) is a higher percentage than any other service academy.

I would love to know who told you that.

It is printed in almost all of our literature as well as part of the AAP training knowledge base.

Just_A_Mom
9th April 2010, 07:44 PM
Thanks, Luigi!!!

LineInTheSand
10th April 2010, 02:42 AM
No, you are not off base. 80% (4 out of 5) USCGA graduates continue their education at graduate school, with the USCG typically paying all costs (in exchange for extra service commitment - 3 months for every 1 month in the first year, then a one-to-one payback). It (80%) is a higher percentage than any other service academy.



It is printed in almost all of our literature as well as part of the AAP training knowledge base.

Of course we're NOT saying that 4 out of 5 CGA grads have their grad school paid for by the Coast Guard, or that those alumni are getting that grad school with a service commitment. Many of my classmates are getting masters, BUT far less than 80% are doing so on the Coast Guard's dime. When my class has anywhere near 160 members attending grad school on the Coast Guard's dime, I'll let you know.

Just_A_Mom
12th April 2010, 12:31 PM
LITS - This is direct from the CGA website:
http://www.uscga.edu/display.aspx?id=460


Every junior officer in the Coast Guard can apply for the opportunity to obtain advanced education at Coast Guard expense. These educational programs generally range from 12-24 months in length and come with an additional service obligation of three months for each month of education for the first year and then a one-for-one after the first year of education received. There is an excellent chance of going to a post-graduate institution of your choice, as long as the university offers the degree program for which you have been selected.
While in school, you continue to receive full pay and benefits - your only job is to study and earn your degree! A complete list of Advanced Education programs of instruction can be found in the Educational Programs List (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-w/training/CG-132/CG-1322/policy/adved.htm). Note the opportunity for mid-grade and senior officers to attend prestigious Senior Service Schools like the Naval War College and the Air War College, as well as opportunities to attend executive development programs like the Harvard Security Fellowship, or Sloan Fellows Program.
While acceptance into these programs is based on job performance and academic potential, there is such a broad range of opportunities offered that any Academy graduate has a good chance of being selected for one of the programs. For instance, in the last 10 years, every Academy engineering graduate who has applied for an engineering post-graduate program has been accepted and has gone on to complete a master's degree!


I sincerely hope this is not a mischaracterization of reality once in the Coast Guard.

LineInTheSand
12th April 2010, 01:32 PM
I will get some numbers later today.

Thank you for your defense of the Coast Guard Academy.

Just_A_Mom
12th April 2010, 01:42 PM
Thanks-

LineInTheSand
12th April 2010, 05:12 PM
I'm still having trouble finding "80%" in the literature. I am not convinced that the 80% is for the Coast Guard funded graduate schools. In the last year just under 30% of the people who applied to a program were accepted. That does not mean there are not many other Coast Guardsmen using the GI Bill or paying their own way, but it certainly falls below the 80%.

Luigi or JAM, do you have that number actually posted anywhere in a way that indicates the 80% applies to those attending on the Coast Guard's dime?

It certainly doesn't indicate 80% in the piece JAM quoted.

I do think a large number of Coast Guardsmen, especially CGA graduates, go on to get a masters. Maybe that number is higher than the other services, maybe not, but I cannot find anything about 4 out of 5 Academy graduates receive their graduate degree on the Coast Guard's dime in a Coast Guard grad program.

Luigi59
12th April 2010, 05:47 PM
Luigi or JAM, do you have that number actually posted anywhere in a way that indicates the 80% applies to those attending on the Coast Guard's dime?

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFQYqUaVYT8

Pay close attention beginning at the 2:50 mark.

2. http://www.uscga.edu/display.aspx?id=552

2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence.

3. Rear cover of AAP Pocket Guide (line 10)

4. AAP Pocket Guide, page 25.

Or, you can call the Admissions Department at 860-444-8500 and ask.

:cool:

LineInTheSand
12th April 2010, 06:32 PM
We're looking at it now to see where the numbers are coming from. Thanks.

SamAca10
12th April 2010, 09:39 PM
Well, not sure about numbers but I did find this out guys...


Smallest of the five U.S. federal military academies
Four-year Bachelor of Science degree program
Founded in 1876 aboard the schooner Dobbin
Highly selective
No tuition
No congressional nomination necessary
Holistic education includes academics, physical fitness, character and leadership
Multiple roles of multi-mission, maritime Coast Guard accommodate diverse interests
2 graduates are NASA astronauts
80% of graduates go to graduate school (most paid for by the Coast Guard)
85% of graduates choose to serve beyond their five-year commitment

http://www.cga.edu/display1.aspx?id=340

LineInTheSand
13th April 2010, 12:33 AM
That may be a more accurate statement.

Here's my reasoning...


Straight out of the Coast Guard Academy, newly minted ensigns will go to three general areas. First, most will be aboard a ship for their first tour. That tour will generally last two years. Some will go to a sector. Those tours generally last 3 years. Some will go to flight school. That will last over a year and then they will learn about their aircraft and will be stationed at an air station.

So, let's say a majority of the class transfers after two years, some of those will go to a staff tour. Some will go to a NAG cutter, serve there for a year and return for XO of a 110', CO of an 87' or go to a staff tour. Those staff tours will generally be 3-4 years long, with some officers "short touring". Some officers will go to grad school after their first tour.

Now we get to Year Five from graduation. You will have a small amount, maybe 7% who are separated from service. Another 8% will "Five and Dive" or get out after their five year commitment. This will leave about 85% who will serve past their five year commitment.

The Coast Guard officer corps is 45% Coast Guard Academy graduates.

About 29% of the Coast Guardsmen who applied for the Coast Guard funded graduate programs were selected, meaning 71% of the applicants weren't selected.

It may be fair to assume that not all of that 71% were CGA grads.

On top of that, you also have to factor in the people who reapply for grad school each year, if they were not selected the year before.

Do I think a large number of Coast Guard Academy graduates have masters? Yes. Do I think 80% of Coast Guard Academy graduates have masters degrees that were fully funded by the U.S. Coast Guard? No. There just aren't the numbers for that.

Does this make sense?

Pima
13th April 2010, 04:55 PM
Sam,

One thing to realize is that for promotion purposes officers will need to get a masters degree. In the AF, currently, for O-5 it is the 1st time that the board would see if you have a Masters. If you don't you have a slim to none chance for promotion. O4 and below it is "masked" in other words you may have gone the military's dime, but nobody is evaluated or awarded points if they do or don't have one.

You should also realize that the branch you serve in can change this at any given notice. They will give fair warning, but in essence if they change the rule, you will need to immediately enroll so you will be competitive.

For example, back in 92-93 the AF did not mask Masters for O4. AF members tried to have their Masters by 2 BPZ boards. The AF changed the rule to masking Masters for O4 and members delayed their Masters until they were coming up for O5.

To tie this into the AF doing a RIF, they could decide to "un-mask" for the O4 board and the military members who waited can be passed over.

The military changes and you must be flexible too. 1991 you were in for 10-12 yrs before meeting an O4 board, 2000 board and it was 8 yrs. Yrs ago you could be promoted BPZ for O4, now you can't (maybe it is back again, I don't keep up). Yrs ago you got an "X" by your name on the promotion list which meant you were eligible for In Residence School (PME), now they don't do that.

My true point is if you try to map out your career at this point you better use a pencil and not a pen because it will change more than you ever thought.

Finally, it really is best to get your Masters as early as possible for multiple reasons. The first three are:
1. Younger rank, less responsibility for your duty job. The FCC has to write the OPR or OER, the young lt doesn't. The young lts primary job is to learn the job.
Old joke, but it is true...butter bars crap falls off...railroad bars and it sticks. Lt is seen as young and new. Captain, is seen as you should know better.
2. Earlier on, less life issues...babies/kids/spouse take up a lot of personal time.
3. Commitment issues...the longer you wait, the more time you will be required to stay. You will be required to payback time for taking TA from the military for your Masters.

This is far down the road, and the road will twist, just keep it in your sights because I have seen many AF and Army officers wake up one morning and say OH SH*T, I am coming up for BPZ and I don't have a Masters. They then find themselves trying to be an officer, father, husband and student in a very short time span.

Just_A_Mom
13th April 2010, 05:16 PM
LITS - fair enough.
Is Tuition Assistance available for Coast Guardmen? Perhaps *they* are counting those who earned a grad degree with tuition assistance and adding that number to the fully-funded number?

LineInTheSand
13th April 2010, 06:22 PM
Tuition assistance if available, yes. Maybe that number was added, but the tuition assistance would not cover 100% of the costs.

It may also be a case of just "passing a number down", whatever the reason, they're checking it out.

LineInTheSand
19th April 2010, 02:26 AM
Final determination, the numbers were incorrect. The 4 out of 5 was not "fully covered" but instead included ANY kind of tuition assistance.