Athletic Recruit who isn't "into" the military

[myboy2012]

DS has dreamed of Annapolis since he could say the word. We always told him to work hard, be a leader and perhaps he'd get the chance. He followed our advice and received a nomination, he's academically and physically qualified and we are waiting to hear on DoDMERB status.

DS informed us today that a classmate has been recruited by USNA and USAFA to play football. He was excited until his friend said: "Yeah, I'm going to accept the appointment...I'm just really not into this whole military thing." DS is devastated...there's the possibility that he might not get the appointment he desperately wants (you never know until that envelope arrives) and his classmate who could care less has two...

:frown:

[Bumblebee]

Its very frustrating I'm sure.

Some people want it for different reasons.

Money is a large part of it.

[Pima]

It is frustrating as a parent to watch our children in any situation be upset. As a citizen it is more upsetting to know that there maybe someone who is serving for the wrong reason. I hope for your son that he does get his dream, but I also hope he has a back up plan. My ds wants the AFA and that is it. If he doesn't get it he will be going to get his commission via AFROTC, thus he will get his ultimate dream of being an officer and that is all that matters. How you get there doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is that you get there.
We have a friend who got only 1 nom for the AFA, but not the USNA, when they found out another cadet took the AFA our friend was than offered the USNA (which was their 1st choice), so you never know what may happen.
In the end if your sons friend hasn't really thought about what the next 9 years will be like (if they take flight training 8 yrs after finishing UPT or @32)he might be very sorry.
Unfortunately, there are people there for the wrong reasons, but there are also people in the AFA that are attending to get a pilot slot and will leave as soon as possible to become a bus driver in the sky. Everyone is there for different reason, we just have to believe that no matter what happens it happens for a reason.

My best wishes for your son that his dream comes true.

[myboy2012]

Pima,

Yes, it is frustrating. DS definately has a backup plan. He'll also go the ROTC route. He has been accepted to 2 very good colleges and each has offered him scholarships (although he is waiting to hear about NROTC). He wants to be a Naval Officer. His first choice is to go to Annapolis but if that doesn't happen, he knows there are other ways to accomplish his dream. The most upsetting thing is that we look at an appointment to any service academy as an honor reserved for the very best of the best. How sad that there is someone who isn't there with his whole heart into it while there are others who would do anything to be given the chance.

[Pima]

I know your feeling, but I still believe that in this day and age with the military being overtaxed and overburdened that I actually pity the child. Free education or to be able to play ball is never the reason to join. If my ds did not have a back-up plan for ROTC, I would tell him don't take it. 4 yrs of educ., 5 yrs, active and 3 yrs res., before you add on any committment to train for your "real" job, i.e. flying is 8 yrs after pinning on your wings (@ 18 mos to get at least for the AF) means that he will be @32 before he can say goodby to the service, no free education or playing a sport is worth that...only if your heart and soul is in it will you look at it with joy and glee. I had a friend who did it for the free education, she was called up from the reserves from Desert Storm I and stated to me that she felt like she made a deal with the devil. She resigned her commission as soon as she got back.

My DS originally wanted to go to Notre Dame AFROTC for a long time, he eventually decided he wanted the AFA. I am sure that your DS is the same as mine, they want to serve as an officer and they will.

[mom3boys]

I talked to a local mom whose son is an athlete at a SA. She knows my son is an athlete, too (although for a non-revenue generating sport, unlike her son). She asked if mine will be entering through the front door or the back door. Her son was recruited and did not have to seek a nom (read: did not jump through the hoops and mass of paperwork associated w/ seeking mulitple noms). He hadn't considered an SA until the recruiters came to call...but he has loved the academy and looks forward to being an officer after his athletic career ends. The young man you speak of may have a change of heart, or may choose not to attend. The academies cannot fill their sports rosters with top athletes who have dreamed of nothing else their entire lives...it's just the facts. If they did that, bball and football would be simply intramurals, wouldn't it?

[Pima]

I agree, but I also wonder, when the SA's were created did they recruit athletes, or just potential officers?

I honestly have no problem with it, because these candidates must also meet the rigors of gpa, sat, act, etc. We have a friend whose son is a jr. the AFA has already contacted him back in OCT for swimming. They are considering it and I know he will be a fine officer and would have made it in either way. I am not sure he will do it b/c he was a military brat, but Dad retired many moons ago and he likes his home state...my bet if he gets UNC, he'll go there otherwise he'll go AFA

[usna1985]

What you say happens -- kids attend SAs solely, or at least primarily, b/c it is their best chance to play Div I football. A couple of comments (my opinion only).

1. Some kids make comments like the one made by the son's friend b/c they think it's cool or macho ("yeah, I don't care"). Deep down, maybe the guy does care -- who knows.

2. Even if they're going to a SA to play football, some will end up loving it and, to everyone's surprise, end of making the military a career. I personally know several examples. Not suggesting this is common, but it happens.

3. If they really don't like USNA, my guess is that they'll transfer after one or two years. Doesn't solve the "admissions" issue, but it's hard to commit for 9 years to something you don't like at all.

4. While I'm sure the situation is discouraging, like so many things in life, it happens and there's not a lot you can do about it. As an adult, you know this will happen over and over again in various contexts (jobs you should get but someone else does, etc.). Thus, worrying about it only makes you more depressed and won't do a thing to improve your son's situation.

I really hope it works out for your son and that he gets the chance to fulfill his dream. Try to keep your (and his) focus on that and forget about what may or may not be going on with those around you.

[LineInTheSand]

This reminds me of Eckel. That is the USNA grad who wasn't really into it...got his commission as an ensign in the US Navy and never made it to LTjg because the Navy gave him the big ole boot. He has to pay back the US govt. for the investment the tax payers made. He now plays for the New England Patriots (hate them), and people want to say he's a good guy because he served in the Navy. Well to those people, he didn't serve honorably and he was able to do what few people can, NOT make O-2. That's just pathetic.


He's pathetic...and I'm done with the Patriots (for a variety of reasons, BOOOOOO).

[Just_A_Mom]

For another view -

read "Absolutely American" - he highlights and follows a recruited football player. This guy was into football and only football. WP was his only DI choice so he went. They seriously doubted he would make an officer.
He was just so bad militarily - wouldn't shave, shine his shoes etc.....
he almost didn't commit. they put him in charge of beast summer before committment and it clicked. all of it.
then the Giants wanted to draft him. something line $800,000. they said come now or never.
won't spoil it for you but in my copy is a picture of him leading troops in Afghanistan.

[Pima]

I remember being at a squadron party many years ago, and the ringknockers were talking about when they decided they wanted to go to the AFA...There were 3. I will always remember the answers and where they were standing b/c it shocked me...please realize Bullet wanted college life, but to be an officer so he went ROTC. This also goes back to the day when acad grads received a full commission upon graduation and could not be rif. Just to let you know I was shocked b/c DH always wanted to be in the AF, so I thought this would be true for acad grads

Here were the answer:

1st guy (LTC and CO of his own squadron): When I didn't get accepted to USNA...retired as a full bird

2nd guy (LTC and ADO): when they recruited me for sports and I learned I could fly... followed by I am just waiting until I can go fly the airlines...retired as LTC

3rd guy (Maj and ADO): when I was 3...he is still in and a full bird now.

So you see 3 guys, who all were at the academy at the exact same time, different grad yrs., all went to the acad for different reasons...all did 20+ yrs...IMHO, they were/are all great officers and flyers.

Remember, there will be people who also go through ROTC for the "free" education...I personally couldn't care less what their motivation is, as long as they give their heart, soul and everything in between when they are active duty.

[wpmom2011]

I want to add another viewpoint. A lot of kids are going through the same thing, but involving civilian colleges. There are only so many slots at some of the most sought-after colleges, and the retention rates vary for those, too. There will always be kids going away to college (and SA's) that find that they don't belong there and end up leaving.

For those more dedicated young people, I'll say - Don't give up. If you don't get an appointment your first year out of high school, keep applying. Go to Plan B, work hard in Plan B, and then reapply. That will also show that your persistent and dedicated - someone will notice.

It's very common for those recruits that aren't into the military not to last long once they get to a SA. It takes a huge commitment and dedication to go the distance. And from what I hear about the added issues of being on a corps squad like football (at WP), they may even have it harder than a non-corps cadet.

[myboy2012]

I'm not worried about my son. I know he'll be a naval officer one way or another. I sincerely hope his friend has a change of heart, gets there and finds he loves it. If he weren't an athlete, he'd likely be a very competitive candidate and he can certainly handle the academics. With any luck there will be 2 new officers come 2012, and I'll know and love them both!

[Pima]

My hopes, wishes and thoughts that your words will become reality...either way, AMerica can feel wonderful knowing that we have the top of the tops as our officers.

Good luck, keep us posted...maybe someday our AF son will cross paths with your Navy son at the Pentagon:thumb:

[USNA69]

It has been mentioned that kids come to the SAs for various reasons. Not all of them are noble and/or patriotic. The difference with the recruited football player is that he is on a team, a team where he will continue to learn teamwork and a place where he will learn that it is not for self but for the team. A place where quitting is not an option. Noble traits for a grad. Therefore, it is not surprising, for USNA at least, that varsity athletes in general, football players in particular, do measurably better in the fleet both in performance and in retention.

[LineInTheSand]

USNA69,

I assume you're overlooking Eckel, that USNA football grad who get the boot before making LTJG (and that's obviously not easy). Sure, he's playing for New England...but how much negative attention has he brought. Not honorable, sadly.

[LineInTheSand]

I don't buy that for a second. Wasn't it a vasity athlete, a USNA football in particular that was Court Martialed a few years back? Not just a football player...but the QUARTERBACK. Have we already gone over Eckel? The star USNA football player who apparently wasn't in it for "Service to Country", when he had mutliple problems while at the academy, got his commission, and with in a year lost his commission. As I remember it, he applied for a wavier for his obligatory 5 years AD service so he could play for the New England Patriots, however when that was denied, he some how found himself in a great deal of trouble and found his way out of service early. That's ok though, because the NE Patriots were right there waiting for him, and he knew it.

My classmate, a vasity football player, was also Court Martialed (first in the Academy's history). Another varsity football player from my class also lost his commission, never making O2 because of some "problems" after he graduated.


Are football players visible? Yes, I would say so. Do many of them make it through, so at some point a service academy team that has trouble competing against civilian colleges can compete? I think so.


Are all football players bad? No. A good number of my friends played (granted it was Div. III).

Do I buy the claim that football players in particular do better in the fleet? No. I think if someone is performing and played club ice hockey well then someone might say "yeah and he went to the academy", and if they played football, then that would invariably come up "yeah and he went to the academy and played D-I football!"


I don't buy it, too many court-martials and lost commissions in the past few years for me to classify them in particular as "better in the fleet".

[LineInTheSand]

Here you go, see what the Boston Globe has to say about one USNA vasity football player, Eckel.


Too much shoal water out there for some people. This guy ran aground EARLY at the Academy, "somehow" made it through, and ran aground again.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/11/18/troubled_waters/

[USNA69]

The predicted retention rates of graduates who letter in a varsity sport is 4.39%
higher than non-athletes; 52.42% for letter winners compared to 48.03% for non-athletes.

This is the result of a recent NPS detailed study which is probably more accurate than wild speculation based on one or two individuals. The football difference was the greatest, around 8%.

[beatkp]

Here’s an example of CGA football making a impact on a coastie’s career decision:

Washington Post Article

First Person Singular
Adm. Thad Allen, commandant, U.S. Coast Guard

Sunday, October 14, 2007; W16

I thought I was too small to play Division I football, and Coast Guard had a Division III team. Strange reason to go to [the Coast Guard Academy], but that's what happened. I was only going to stay five years and get out -- I think that's what everybody says -- but it just starts growing on you, especially when you're involved in search and rescue.

We encounter people every day that have been thrown overboard, that are in an airplane that's crashed in the middle of the ocean, on a boat that's capsized or sinking. It doesn't take very many life-and-death cases where you pull somebody out of the water, you give them back their life, to get pretty stoked about this line of work.

When I was a lieutenant in the winter of 1980, we had a barge with about 3 million gallons of oil that grounded at the entrance to the Brigantine wildlife refuge, just north of Atlantic City. There were two men trapped in the deckhouse on the barge. It was almost a whiteout with the blizzard, and we couldn't get anybody to the barge.

Finally, one of our motor lifeboats was able to get near the surf line and could see the barge. I was in the command center talking to the boat on the radio, and the coxswain said: "I think I can make it. I'm going in." Then there was nothing on the radio for 30 minutes. If [the crew members] couldn't get back to the surf line, they were going to be in peril, too. I remember them coming on the radio saying: "We got them! We made it!" -- and by that time I think I'd aged 10 years. The barge was the Michelle F, and the coxswain's name was Matthew Greer. You don't forget that stuff. It's physical and it's emotional. It kind of takes your whole being.

Interview by KK Ottesen........................................... ............................


Adm. Thad Allen told the present football coach George that he thought about Dropping On Request five times, but football helped him to persevere. Look at him now, one of the most admired leaders in the US.

[USNA69]

Wasn't it a vasity athlete, a USNA football in particular that was Court Martialed a few years back? Not just a football player...but the QUARTERBACK.

Yep, and he was found NOT GUILTY.

[LineInTheSand]

ADM Allen may have found support from teammates, I'll agree.


Five times for considering DOR? I don't know many cadets who haven't had that thought multiple times. There wasn't a semester there that I didn't at one point think "why am I doing this to myself." Did I have a football team to get me through it? No. My strength came from myself, my family, and a HUGE part of it came from my shipmates (especially classmates). I can NAME the people in my class that made that difference for me.

OH NO, NEW STAT...let's see the percentage of people with friends who make it through. I'm going to assume that number is HIGHER than 8%.

I don't want to make any WILD speculation, but I assume my EXPERIENCES are a little more recent.


Let's base it on NUMBERS? How about 100% of CGA Court Martials were football players.

I take "PREDICTED" numbers for what they're worth, but you're welcome to put more stock in them.

I respect ADM Allen a great deal, that is a sentiment that can be felt across the Coast Guard. What else would you expect for him to say to the football coach? I thought about quiting and the team did nothing for me?

My company mates, members of my class who I named on my page in the Tide Rips (our year book); I credit them for their great influence and support. For some it may be a team. But to say that a football player is somehow above the rest....that's buying into a system that makes some members of a fleet feeling above the rest...an idea that will set them up for failure pretty quickly.



The USNA QB was found not guilty for the RAPE charges, but was found GUILTY for conduct unbecoming and disobeying a lawful order.
Is that Navy QB wearing butter bars these days?

[beatkp]

/\/\/\/\/\
First off, I did not intend to imply that a Service Academy Football player is somehow above the rest of his peers but was only responding with an example to the original question, an athletic recruit (a football player) who isn’t “into” the military.
In the article on Adm. Allen explained how he came to a service academy with the intent to play football and then he was only going to stay five years and get out. Hardly a military oriented mind set.
Then he goes on and explains how it (military service) grows on you.
I thought this article was a good example of someone, who might attend a service academy with the intent to play football, think they’re not into the military and what may be a result of his experiences. I only used an example of the CGA since I have a vested interest there.

If I gave the impression that football players stand a better chance at staying beyond their obligation of five years, it wasn’t intended.

If I’m not mistaken, 85% of CGA grads stay beyond five years and huge majority of those wasn’t because of playing football. Besides the previously mentioned percentage, I do not have a clue about the sustainability of officer retention levels in the Coast Guard regarding football players.

But what I do know is that CGA football players do have a special camaraderie that helps them get through the tough times, especially during the season and they do have family believe or not, that helps them out also. During the three and a half month long season of getting knocked around for three to four hours a day and having to do the same military and academic obligations as everyone else can make a tremendous amount of stress.

[LineInTheSand]

No, Beat, you did not give the impression that they stand above their shipmates, USNA69's 8% comment did.


I appreciate the Allen quote, and I've seen it before.


As for the family they develope with their teammates, I don't doubt that. That can be good when it means support and encouragement. It can also be bad when a teammate steps in to keep his teammate from being held accountable. If I had 5 cents for every time I had to deal with an upperclass teammate of a 4/c football player that could not do his freakin' job....I would probably have around....20-30 cents. I don't accept the "I'll deal with him because we're teammates and he'll understand." Football players can get waivers for some of the physical requirements during their cadet careers, however these weight waivers don't work for commissioning requirements, so many times there is a battle at the end of a players 4 years to drop to the required weight to meet standards.


I am by no means condeming teams. I think teams are great, and the sports provide a much needed release for aggression and energy.

[Just_A_Mom]

beatkp - that was a very nice post.
The Service academies value athletes. especially those who play on teams.

92% of all West Point cadets earned varsity letters in high school - I am sure this is by design and not coincidence.
West Point espcially values those who participate in TEAM sports. I am sure they have good reason.

Are there some bad apples? Sure. Those who are high profile athletes who turn bad get a lot of bad press. It is more "newsworthy".
The fact is those who enjoy and are good at team sports are especially suited to the structure of a military lifestyle. They understand the concept of the mission and the team and can translate that into the military mission.

If you gave me 10 bright, fit and eager kids who had never considered the military before and 5 were varisty athletes in a team sport (football, soccer, field hockey, ice hockey, lacrosse) and 5 never played on a team - I would bet on the team athletes.

[USNA69]

I assume my EXPERIENCES are a little more recent
First off, I would like to thank you for toning down your original comment which was much more critical of the vintage of my experience. Experience is a wonderful thing. We learn a lot from it. However, if we were forced to rely solely on experience, we would all be walking around with stove element burn scars etched into our hands. Also, I might remind you of the old Indian parable about the six blind men and the elephant. Each had a totally unique experience and they were all in complete disagreement. So there is more to education than experience. Also, hopefully, we should learn to look at things as a whole rather than from a few specific examples. Thousands of varsity lettered athletes are in the fleet. You are basing your conclusion on only one or two bad ones to the exclusion of the vast majority. Hopefully it is your emotions talking and you, in fact, know better.

I intentionally left off the link to the statistics I quoted. There are several studies on the internet. One is even a NY Times article from 1920. Go find them. Read. Learn something.



But to say that a football player is somehow above the rest...

Can’t imagine how you ascertained this. Data for studies is based on historical performance. And that is based on actual service member military performance, not putting someone ‘above the rest’ on a pedestal. They earned their performance marks and the fact that they are more likely to make the Navy a career, speaks for itself. You were admitted to USCGA based on who you were in high school. Various backgrounds predict future performance. We would be stupid not to know these backgrounds and take advantage of them.

LITS, you still have lots of things to learn. Take advantage of all avenues. Your limited parochial past experiences is only a small part.

[LineInTheSand]

To quote you:

"football players in particular, do measurably better in the fleet both in performance"

Selective quoting, yes, but you said it.

Definition for "Better" - that which has greater excellence or is preferable or wiser.

Preferable? Well that is "more worthy."

I can't imagine why I would believe you were saying they are above someone else. And we all know, especially in the Navy, performance is the ticket.



It's true, I did tone done the first form of my orginial comment, having consulted the Service Et. Man., I wanted to leave age out of it, however, now that you brought up my apparent "limited parochial past experiences", I'll refrain from toning it down.

Your experiences, as a midshipman, ended almost four decades ago (yes...that's almost half a century). This was before women were admitted. They would have to wait another decade before one would even graduate. This was a different Navy, a different America, and a different time. Some things apply from half a century ago, other do not. While your comments regarding your experiences may be "fun" or "nice" or may reflect the "old" way of doing things, they are surely dated. Some things never change, however many things do.

I may have limited past experience, but my past experiences aren't so far in the past that they have little bearing on present day affairs.

I don't know what you were TRYING to say, I only know what you DID say. I would suggest maybe using words other than comparative ones next time. "Better" may not be the best word, especially when there are some glaring examples of how this isn't true.

[USNA69]

Okay, let me try again, keeping it simple and to the point. USNA and the Navy attempt to determine 'predictors' of anticipated performance. They have made studies, several from NPS grad student studies and available on the internet, to determine the corelation between undergraduate attributes and fleet performance. As determined by fitness report grades, they have determined that varsity lettered athletes, perform "better" than non athletes. Football players led the pack. As determined by resignation dates, they have determined that varsity lettered athletes remain on active duty longer than non athletes. Therefore they have a 'better' retention rate. If it makes you feel "better', there are a number of words you can use as a substitute for 'better'. I would also hope that the average reader would ascertain that I was speaking of the groups as a whole and certainly allow for specific exclusionary examples.

The above, I have learned from attending USNA briefings, talking with administrators, and reading from various sources. It has absolutely nothing to do with my personal experiences, who I went to school with, how much fun I had, or what the condition of the Navy was while I was active duty. You, however, used your limited parochial experience solely as the basis of your argument. The fact that they are limited and parochial is that they can in no way compensate for the amount of legitimate and pertinent information readily available to contradict your opinion. Also, I have no idea what the inclusion of your observations about 'my' experiences have to do with this discussion.

Perhaps we are contributing nothing further to the constructive nature of this thread and might cease the irrelavent critique of my background.

[LineInTheSand]

"Perhaps we are contributing nothing further to the constructive nature of this thread and might cease the irrelavent critique of my background."


Bullet could have said the same thing when you attack his background.


Keeping it simple and to the point is a great idea, something I don't know many a Naval officer could live without, especially as I look out at the ship next to mine here, on this Navy base.


I don't care what dicussion you've had with any administrator from USNA. There aren't many branches out there allowing grads to go straight to Grad school after they get their commissions. That says something about the state of you officer corps, and possibly the product.


Do these vast studies go into the reason for people leaving the Navy? Does it calculate that perhaps the "brighter" students see what they would be worth on the outside. It's not uncommon for an admiral to comment that they were on academic probation. In fact the running joke was that the lower 50% of the class are the ones in the end with the stars, everyone else just got smart.


How is your study tracking performance, or is it only tracking retention?

[kp2001]

I am just going to step in and ask everybody to take a few deep breaths and try to return the thread to the original purpose of discussing an athletic recruit who isn't fully into the Academy.

I would ask everybody to remember to please treat each other with the due respect each individual deserves.

And now back to our original programming.......

[Just_A_Mom]

^^^^^
Thanks KP2001.

Please take a minute to refresh yourselves with this forum's CoC part of which reads:
This forum is intended for applicant's parents to ask questions concerning the admissions process in general and Service Academy life. It is our desire that all information provided in response to those questions be accurate and that the threads not drift off-topic. As such, please reply only if you are certain of your answer. If your answer is based on one or more conditions, then please state them. Providing links to official or otherwise trustworthy sources is particularly encouraged.


Please keep this fact based and on-topic. Please post only if you have something constructive to the conversation. The forum is to be of service to those parents who have children at, appointed to or who are considering applying to a service academy.
If you would like to debate the character flaws of academy football players that might be best on the "off topic" forum.

As KP2001 said - back to discussion athletic recruits who are not "fully into" the academy.............................

[Exar Ganis]

I'm sure the kid was just being modest... Ive seen way too many kids like that...

[LineInTheSand]

"Please keep this fact based and on-topic."


Rgr, wilco.




In the end, it doesn't matter WHY they came, if they make it through, the same will be asked of them...unless....


They play pro-basketball and buy out their years. I think that would not be a fair use of an academy spot for someone who actually serves their country.


If they graduate and serve, I don't completely care about their motivation to join from the start, that's dynamic and it can change. If they weren't into it from the start and don't serve...that's a problem for me.

[mom3boys]

I guess what annoys me about the former Navy guy who went to play for the Patriots is that the nice guy in Absolutely American, when he could not get out of his obligation honorably, went on to serve. That's honor.

[USNA69]

How is your study tracking performance, or is it only tracking retention?
One study which stands out is the promotion to O-4 for the classes of 1981-1985. I can think of no better gauge of performance than promotion and O-4 is the first rank that becomes somewhat selective. The collective rate for non-athletes was 77.2% while that of the 104 football players who graduated during this era was 94.1%, the highest of all team athletes. I would say that definitely the football players are, for lack of a better word, better performers.

[SubSquid]

LT(jg) LITS,

Sir, with all due respect, allow me to interject some personal experience and some anecdotal evidence that would tend to support USNA69's statitistics.

My son is a second try candidate for the Naval Academy. He was 3Q'ed and nominated last year and, unfortunately, was not selected for appointment.

He is a a smallish (5'11", 180 pound) player. He spent his high school career as an outside linebacker (at 160 pounds) and was selected for numerous team and conferance awards. When his dream was side tracked last year, he opted to go to college and play D3 football for at high tier college in PA. At the onset, he was told by the Coach and Defensive Coordinator that he would have to change to Safety. During June, July and August, before camp, he spent three days a week with a speed and agility trainer to improve his skills necessary to be successful at this new position. He was friends with the outgoing senior safety for this team and spent countless hours with him learning the program, before camp.

During his Fall Semester, carrying a full academic load, he would spend 18 hours a day, between football, class, homework, and study to be the best he could be in his multi-task environment. His tanacity, relentless desire to win, faith in the team, devotion to the team and focus towards his academics were laudable but not unexpected by those who know him.

In the end, he was a recognized leader of the team (as a Freshman) and managed a 3.3 CUM in his academics, highest of his freshmen teammates. Was he the best in academics at the college? Obviously not. Non sport scholars managed 4.0's. They received scholarship money for their excellence. My son received no additional scholarships. But he did received many slaps on the back from his team mates and coaches for a job well done. Priceless.

I guess the point is that team athletes are rarely the top 50% of their class but they are leaders that know how to bring out the best in their team, learn how to react correctly under extreme pressure, build loyalities, and always play to win. I believe that's what the academies look for and, what Officer Review Boards see in varsity athletes. Determination, Focus, and Team leaders. Sir, I'll ask you the question: What kind of leader are you for the sailors in your division? This is a rethorical question, I do not want an answer. From reading your entries I know.

Bottom Line:

Varsity athletes know how to buy into the culture. They know how to win. They know how to lead. All very successfully.

Sir, thank you for your time.

[LineInTheSand]

I sit here in a port call having read your post and I wonder how exactly this applies to an academy. Yes, varsity atheletes have dedication, I had a letter in high school.

Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.

Thank you for your personal experience, but I do not see how it applies to the performance of officers from any branch, in the US Armed Forces.

[LineInTheSand]

USNA69, I disagree once again. O-3 selection still falls with in the 5 year commitment. O-4 selection however falls outside of the 5 years. Of the non-football officers who did not make O-4, how many voluntarily dropped out, and how many were not selected for LCDR/Major?

Are we selectively determining what these stats mean?

[USNA69]

I am having more trouble than usual following your logic. Maybe it is due to it being 1AM during a port visit.

It is immaterial what "we" think. USNA has determined that the parameters are valid for viable predictions.

This data is only for those going before the O-4 board and does not include those who have already resigned. It is for those who have selected the Navy as a career. It is a snapshot of the 10 year mark for those in the classes of 1981-1985 who remain on active duty. Since my previous retention statistics were in the 50% range, it would seem obvious that percentages in the 78%-95% range would not include those who had resigned. I would think that Football players promoted at a 22% higher rate than non athletes proves better performance. Call it what you will. It seemed relatively straight forward to me (and to USNA leadership).

subsquid, thanks for your post. I, and many others, I am sure, see it as a very valid example of the effects of college football on an individual's personal and professional growth. Just as pertinent for NAVY athletics as a CGA courts martial, I would think. Maybe it is time to dig out all of General MacArthur's observations on Army football. It still applies, I guess to the consternation of a few. However, somehow, I feel that college athletics might not really be LITS'S issue here:

Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.

Hard to argue with logic such as this who also thinks subsquid's post is immaterial. Maybe subsquid's observation on your leadership capabilities might also flaw your definition of 'very respectable'. I think I am going to crawl back in my hole.

[USNA69]

I can't resist:

Me:
I can think of no better gauge of performance than promotion and O-4 is the first rank that becomes somewhat selective. The collective rate for non-athletes was 77.2% while that of the 104 football players who graduated during this era was 94.1%, the highest of all team athletes.

LITS:
Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.

I am definitely crawling into my hole and remaining there. LITS, trust me, my failure to respond to any further posts of yours has nothing to do with my inability to continue the discussion.

[LineInTheSand]

Originally Posted by LineInTheSand
How is your study tracking performance, or is it only tracking retention?

"One study which stands out is the promotion to O-4 for the classes of 1981-1985. I can think of no better gauge of performance than promotion and O-4 is the first rank that becomes somewhat selective. The collective rate for non-athletes was 77.2% while that of the 104 football players who graduated during this era was 94.1%, the highest of all team athletes. I would say that definitely the football players are, for lack of a better word, better performers."



Again, using studies that suit your needs. Not only that but studies that are over 10 years old. Maybe for a grad of 1969 these look pretty recent, but for anyone else, who realizes that the Class of 1994 made O-4 three years ago...your stats looks a little dated. I also wonder how much a class of 1981 stat looks when you consider that women had only graduated a year before that class, so...this isn't the most accurate cross section of what you might find today, now that women have been attending the service academies since 1976, and first graduated in 1980. Finally I wonder if your study indicates how many great performers and very qualified Naval/USMC officers went Five and Dive when they figured out the US Navy organization wasn't what they wanted to be a part of.

[LineInTheSand]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LineInTheSand
Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.

"Hard to argue with logic such as this who also thinks subsquid's post is immaterial. Maybe subsquid's observation on your leadership capabilities might also flaw your definition of 'very respectable'. I think I am going to crawl back in my hole."


I see it as immaterial for a variety of reasons. First his son, as far as I can tell, hasn't been accepted to the USNA. Maybe he should be, but apparently, despite all of his reasoning, the Admissions Board sees the pats on the back from the teammates and coach, as not enough to "make it work". Am I against team sports? Heck no. I played ice hockey and soccer, and took a brief stab at lacrosse. These are team sports. I appreciated my role on those teams, but does that make me a better officer? I don't think so. Do I think football has a leg up on these sport for creating better officers? No. If I needed a course in leadership, I can assure USNA69 and Subsquid, the last place I would look for that course is from members of the Navy. It is a fine naval force, and I'm happy we have these kinds of ships defending the nation, but unfortunately it takes a little more than wearing a tan uniform to impress.

Maybe he has been accepted, and Subsquids profile is old, if that's the case, I really hope he does well, and does not follow the path of a few leaders like Kyle Eckel, Lamar Jones, or Webster Smith. I do think they are exceptions to the rules, they certainly negate SubSquids bottom line of "Varsity athletes know how to buy into the culture. They know how to win. They know how to lead. All very successfully."


I want to make sure you understand that post was also made with all due respect.