Branching question

[Chockstock]

Ok, this is a question mostly for our older members and veterans who I think will be able to help me out.

I know as a yuk, branching is still pretty far away (having to pick a major is a much closer decision), but I've been really looking into what I want to branch. You may have heard this, but USMA is making an overhaul of the branching system and I am liking what I hear so far - as individuals, we will "apply" for the branches of our choice, and the officers on the branch panel will review our applications and "accept" them and offer an invitation to join the branch. Really similar to applying for college.

Anyhow, I am considering Armor as my top choice right now. But after speaking with some officers over summer training and doing some research, I've realized that Armor as a branch has been left mostly on the sidelines - although heavy tracked vehicles were used in Iraq and Desert Storm/Shield, their use has been almost non-existent in the mountainous regions of Afghanistan. And with the troop drawdown and relative stability in Iraq, tanks aren't really being used anymore. An officer I spoke to at buckner told me that I won't be able to get as much combat experience as an armor officer and that training opportunities are decreased as well due to the military being cash-strapped.

Question: Is there a future for Armor and Armor officers? Its my passion and dream to work with heavy armoured vehicles but it seems that the nature of this war, as well as the rise of electronic/space/cyberspace warfare really puts tanks out of the equation.

Thank you :smile:

-CS

[scoutpilot]

Armored vehicles have been sidelined to a large degree, but Armor officers have not. Many have gone to Cav squadrons (RSTAs) which are now organic to each BCT. These units feature a mix of Armor and Infantry officers and soldiers. In heavy brigades, you can serve in a CAB as well.

Is there a future for armor? Of course. So long as China and Russia and Iran and the rest of the not-so-friendly world is rolling around in BTRs and the descendants of the T-64/72 and T-80 line, we will ensure we have the best armored forces on earth. Will they always have a role? Not always. But the most powerful system on the Abrams--the one our enemies (and even our allies) have tried in vain to copy--is the crew of American soldiers who make the machine function. They are what makes the tank what it is, and they are incredibly adaptable. They need adaptable leaders.

Try not to worry top much about the current fight. It'll largely be over by the time you join the force in 3 to 3.5 years.

[patentesq]

Its my passion and dream to work with heavy armoured vehicles . . . .

Follow your passion and dream. You should always do that, because you will do much better doing something you love than not. And just know that your passions and dreams will evolve over time as you gain more experience. As you face forks in the road, go with your gut.

Your destiny plays a part, too. Don't begrudge your branch if you happen to branch Aviation or Infantry -- there are "heavy armoured vehicles" aspects in those branches as well (i.e., Apaches or BIFVs).

[MemberLG]

The simple fact is you will be a leader first than whatever else.

If branch Armor, the time that you will spend it a tank will gradually decline. The most time you will spend on a tank is when you are a platoon leader than it will a big drop. In theory there are other positions (company XO, company commander, BN S3 and BN CDR) where an Armor officer will spend some time on tank, but much. When I was a mechanized infantry, sometimes it was entertaining to watch Bn S3 and Bn CDR at our gunnery trying to qualify.

[alparent]

The simple fact is you will be a leader first than whatever else.

If branch Armor, the time that you will spend it a tank will gradually decline. The most time you will spend on a tank is when you are a platoon leader than it will a big drop. In theory there are other positions (company XO, company commander, BN S3 and BN CDR) where an Armor officer will spend some time on tank, but much. When I was a mechanized infantry, sometimes it was entertaining to watch Bn S3 and Bn CDR at our gunnery trying to qualify.

How long is someone generally a platoon leader? What happens after that?

[cisco]

How long is someone generally a platoon leader? What happens after that?

PL's are 2LTs and 1LTs after 18 months of being a 2LT, you'll become a 1LT, you're that rank for around 4 and a half years and then get promoted to Captain. So, around 6 or so years of being a PL and LT.

[scoutpilot]

PL's are 2LTs and 1LTs after 18 months of being a 2LT, you'll become a 1LT, you're that rank for around 4 and a half years and then get promoted to Captain. So, around 6 or so years of being a PL and LT.

6 years? You must be talking about some other country's Army.

The current PL promotion point is still at 18 months, so after 1.5 years you'll pick up 1LT. In general, you should expect to spend anywhere from 6 months to a year training prior to your first duty assignment, with the exception of aviators, who will spend about 16-24 months training. The captain promotion point varies based on the needs of the Army. During the lean times (the surge in Iraq) we were promoting LTs to CPT at the 37 or 38-month mark. It has recently gone back up to around 41-42 months. The goal is to return it to 48 months, eventually.

At most, a LT should expect to be a platoon leader for about 2 years. That's a best-case scenario. 18 months in a platoon is about the norm. About 1-in-3 LTs will move up to an XO slot, if their unit has XOs. The rest will go to staff.

So, you should expect to be a LT for about 3.5 years, of which a portion will be spent training.

[cisco]

6 years? You must be talking about some other country's Army.


Lol.


48 months? I could of sworn I read it differently somewhere else :confused:
Don't I feel dumb.

[scoutpilot]

Lol.


48 months? I could of sworn I read it differently somewhere else :confused:
Don't I feel dumb.

You "could of" sworn or you "could've" sworn? Either way, it's not 6 years.

"Mend your speech, lest it mar your fortune." -Bill Shakespeare.

[LineInTheSand]

The majors I've worked with said people are making captain in 3 years.


Whatever it is, you will make O-3 in the Army faster than any other service in the U.S. military.

[scoutpilot]

The majors I've worked with said people are making captain in 3 years.


Whatever it is, you will make O-3 in the Army faster than any other service in the U.S. military.

The fastest promotion rate was in 2006, when they started the list at 38 months. That was back when the Army was hemorrhaging captains. The economy hadn't tanked and they had to offer the retention bonus to captains. Last year and this year the list started at 42 months.

[LineInTheSand]

This was 2009 we talked specifically about promotions in the Army. I'm sure it's slowed as the economy has headed south. Making O-4 is pretty fast too.

[alparent]

So....how does making Captain change your job description? With each increase in rank, I'm guessing more responsibility. But how does that incorporate itself into your day to day life- time (or no time) in tank, job location, etc??

[scoutpilot]

This was 2009 we talked specifically about promotions in the Army. I'm sure it's slowed as the economy has headed south. Making O-4 is pretty fast too.

If you consider 9 years fast.

[scoutpilot]

So....how does making Captain change your job description? With each increase in rank, I'm guessing more responsibility. But how does that incorporate itself into your day to day life- time (or no time) in tank, job location, etc??

Captain is a highly variable rank in terms of job. As a junior captain, you'll spend most of your time on staff. As a mid-grade captain, you'll be in a command (if you're not a screwup). As a senior captain, post-command, you'll either be back on staff or filling a non-operational role in a job outside of a line unit. That could be as ROTC cadre, a career course instructor, an OC at a training center, or any other of a number of options. It all depends on what the Army needs.

[LineInTheSand]

If you consider 9 years fast.



I do.

[scoutpilot]

I do.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. It takes half a career to reach O-4 as it is.

[LineInTheSand]

It's just faster than other services. I guess the question is relative. Yes, faster than other service, in general is 9 years "fast" probably not.

[Packer]

LITS : What is the promotion rate in the CG?

[LineInTheSand]

Rate or general time frames?


I don't have the promotion rate in front of me, but it takes 4 years to make O-3, and 10 years to make O-4.

[Packer]

General time frames, which you answered. That sounds about the same as the AF.

[LineInTheSand]

Takes 1.5 years to make O-2 in the Coast Guard, it's 2 years for the Air Force.

[alparent]

Thank you for explaining!

[Aglahad]

I got to train with a cav unit (armor) for a bit and most of the PLs were 1LTs. The squadron was inundated with new LTs so most of the new guys were to sent to be assistants in S shops. This example rubs against the common notion that you are a PL once you leave BOLC. From what the LTs told me, they didn't have a choice for between heavy or Cav at ARBOLC. They were slotted based on their post and available positions.

Scout, correct me if I am wrong but I have heard that with the possible transmission to a more garrison focused army the length of 4 to maybe 5 years?
Right now its 0-18 months 2LT....1.5 yr-4ish 1LT....4-8ish CPT....hitting MAJ around 7-9 years and LTC 15ish+ depending on slots?

[scoutpilot]

I got to train with a cav unit (armor) for a bit and most of the PLs were 1LTs. The squadron was inundated with new LTs so most of the new guys were to sent to be assistants in S shops. This example rubs against the common notion that you are a PL once you leave BOLC. From what the LTs told me, they didn't have a choice for between heavy or Cav at ARBOLC. They were slotted based on their post and available positions.

Scout, correct me if I am wrong but I have heard that with the possible transmission to a more garrison focused army the length of 4 to maybe 5 years?
Right now its 0-18 months 2LT....1.5 yr-4ish 1LT....4-8ish CPT....hitting MAJ around 7-9 years and LTC 15ish+ depending on slots?

No, it will not take 5 years. Currently they're working it back to 42 months, with a longer term goal of returning it to 48 months to captain. The overwhelming majority of those who make major will do at about 9-9.5 years. A very few may make it at 7.5 or 8. Those are called Below the Zone promotions (BZ and double BZ). They happen when a branch is short on majors, or an officer fills a strange billet that requires an O-4 (usually Congressional jobs). The latter is extremely rare. BZ promotions are rare in general, and vary by branch.

LTC is really variable. Lately, it's been happening between 16 and 18 years.

[Pima]

So strange to see how each branch is different. For example, AF got rid of BPZ for O4 yrs ago, at least a decade. The 1st time you can be BPZ would be O5. I do agree BPZ is rare, very rare.

Out of curiosity, why the long time discrepancy for O2, (1.5-4) and O3 (4-8 yrs)?

How many actually hang around after their commitment period if it took them 4 yrs to make O2 while others make it in 1.5 yrs? I would think they would bolt because of the writing on the wall is there.

Also, does the Army have the rule 2 boards and out, or can they keep going for O2 and O3 until they get picked up? Basically in the AF, as long as you haven't messed up (DUI) on your 2 yr AD marker you are promoted to O2. On your 4 yr marker you are promoted to O3, so that is why I am interested in learning how the Army boards work and why one can be picked up at 1.5 yrs, but another at 4 if they are in the same yr group.

[scoutpilot]

So strange to see how each branch is different. For example, AF got rid of BPZ for O4 yrs ago, at least a decade. The 1st time you can be BPZ would be O5. I do agree BPZ is rare, very rare.

Out of curiosity, why the long time discrepancy for O2, (1.5-4) and O3 (4-8 yrs)?

How many actually hang around after their commitment period if it took them 4 yrs to make O2 while others make it in 1.5 yrs? I would think they would bolt because of the writing on the wall is there.

Also, does the Army have the rule 2 boards and out, or can they keep going for O2 and O3 until they get picked up?

You misunderstood it, though that's probably the result of how it was written.

"1.5-4" means that you will be an O-2 from the 1.5 year to 4 year mark in your career. Aglahad then shifted the meaning of her numbers when discussing major, and talked about when you "hit" major. Thereafter, the numbers are supposed to be promotion points vice timespan spent in grade.

It makes sense that the AF got rid of it. By their nature, they hold onto their officers longer and thus it's not needed.

[aglages]

Aglages then shifted the meaning of her numbers when discussing major, and talked about when you "hit" major.Aglages in neither a "her" nor involved in this thread (up to now).

[scoutpilot]

Aglages in neither a "her" nor involved in this thread (up to now).

Haha, sorry, I just popped back in to edit that.

Not Aglages. Aglahad.

[aglages]

Haha, sorry, I just popped back in to edit that.
No problem. Thought I had another senior moment for a second.

[Pima]

Thanks for the clarity scout, I did interpret it wrong.


I agree it made sense for the AF to get rid of it, but not only from retention rate, but because there is also a reg for amount of yrs before you can pin on a rank, thus fast trackers land up spinning their wheels for yrs. Use Gen. John Hesterman as an example:
Second Lieutenant June 1, 1983
First Lieutenant June 1, 1985
Captain June 1, 1987
Major March 1, 1994
Lieutenant Colonel Jan. 1, 1997
Colonel April 1, 2000
Brigadier General June 4, 2007
Major General Feb. 12, 2010

He was a double BPZ for O4, Double for O5, Double for O6...notice he pinned on O6 at his 16 yr marker, he was actually selected at his 15 yr marker, but it took him about 18 months to pin on. He then went to a screeching halt regarding his rank. It had nothing to do with the Peter Principle, but everything to do with you can't be an O7 without at least 20 yrs in AD, and you have to have X amount of time in rank. Plus, again since he was so young, his line number would be the highest, and he had to wait it out. Now he is back on track again. I am not 100% sure, but I thought I heard he just got his 3rd star or he is up for it...can't remember.

Everybody in the AF would be shocked if he doesn't retire as an O4.

What's even more interesting is that his wife was a fast tracker too.
Second Lieutenant May 17, 1986
First Lieutenant August 17, 1988
Captain August 17, 1990
Major August 1, 1996 (1 BPZ)
Lieutenant Colonel July 1, 1999 (2 BPZ)
Colonel July 1, 2004 (IZ, but still below zone for her yr group counterparts)

She retired as an O6 just recently. Imagine how sweet their retirement paychecks are? 1 at O6 and 22+ yrs. and another will be at least an O9 with 30. Just in retirement pay alone it is probably going to be in the 6 digits at the ripe old age of 52+/- .

[Aglahad]

Haha, sorry, I just popped back in to edit that.

Not Aglages. Aglahad.

I am a male too. :p

[scoutpilot]

I am a male too. :p

Hmm. Perhaps the Nurse Corps led me to a poor assumption. My mistake.

[Aglahad]

Hmm. Perhaps the Nurse Corps led me to a poor assumption. My mistake.

No worries most people think I went combat arms or anything besides Nurse Corps... but I didn't haha

[scoutpilot]

No worries most people think I went combat arms or anything besides Nurse Corps... but I didn't haha

Unfortunately you'll deal with that for most of your career. My last boss was a Special Forces major, but before the Q course he spent 5 years as an Army Nurse.

The stigma goes both ways. My wife is a doctor in the ED. She will frequently be almost done treating a patient and they'll say "when will the doctor be in?" this happens not infrequently, even though her scrubs are embroidered with "(Firstname Lastname), M.D."

I'm sure you'll hear the term "male nurse" ad nauseum. She frequently gets called "lady doctor" so it goes both ways. For the record, she prefers male nurses. She finds them to be calmer, more professional, and their strength comes in handy.

[flieger83]

My classmate "Johnny" Hesterman has done well...(he didn't like that nickname last time I saw him)

But I like my classmate Dave Goldfein's career a tad more.

http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=9475

He was early to 0-5 and 0-6. The rest..."typical" for folks like him.

Or maybe it's 'cause I know him better than I know JH? :rolleyes:

(They're both REALLY excellent guys!) :thumb::thumb:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[hornetguy]

I'm going to nitpick you just cause I have fun doing it. :)



Everybody in the AF would be shocked if he doesn't retire as an O4.


What will be that massive court marshal you predict will bust him from his current O7 or O8 down to O4? I'm guessing you were trying to say four star? ;)

Imagine how sweet their retirement paychecks are? 1 at O6 and 22+ yrs. and another will be at least an O9 with 30.

At least an O9? OK, so no court marshal, who are we going to war with that our forces are massive enough to have an O10, 5 star general again?! I'm scared now! :eek:

Makes perfect sense sans the at least part. ;)

:biggrin::yllol::shake:

[scoutpilot]

I'm going to nitpick you just cause I have fun doing it. :)



What will be that massive court marshal you predict will bust him from his current O7 or O8 down to O4? I'm guessing you were trying to say four star? ;)



At least an O9? OK, so no court marshal, who are we going to war with that our forces are massive enough to have an O10, 5 star general again?! I'm scared now! :eek:

Makes perfect sense sans the at least part. ;)

:biggrin::yllol::shake:

What's a court marshal? Is he a U.S. Marshal who works in a court? Maybe while he's there he can assist with a court MARTIAL.

Also, O-10 is a 4-star. Arithmetic is fundamental.

Busting chops for errors goes better when you don't make them yourself.

[hornetguy]

What's a court marshal? Is he a U.S. Marshal who works in a court? Maybe while he's there he can assist with a court MARTIAL.

Also, O-10 is a 4-star. Arithmetic is fundamental.

Busting chops for errors goes better when you don't make them yourself.

So it would seem. You've caught two spelling mistakes by me in a week. Herm.

I should go brush up on my contrails and stop thinking about enlisted ranks. :confused:

At least I got one good jab on O4. Pima is used to me poking at her often. :) She serves it right back. Ha.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p267/guscruz/BunnyPancake.gif

[Aglahad]

Unfortunately you'll deal with that for most of your career. My last boss was a Special Forces major, but before the Q course he spent 5 years as an Army Nurse.

The stigma goes both ways. My wife is a doctor in the ED. She will frequently be almost done treating a patient and they'll say "when will the doctor be in?" this happens not infrequently, even though her scrubs are embroidered with "(Firstname Lastname), M.D."

I'm sure you'll hear the term "male nurse" ad nauseum. She frequently gets called "lady doctor" so it goes both ways. For the record, she prefers male nurses. She finds them to be calmer, more professional, and their strength comes in handy.


Ya I don't really know why there is "lady doctor" stigma when it seems in a lot of areas of medicine the ratio is 50/50. Ya for areas I am interested in (ER?ICU/Flight/CRNA/Surgical) there are A LOT more men with A LOT higher pay incentives. CRNAs in the civvie world can top out at 200k.. In fact the army forward surgical team (ABN) nurses have some pretty high speed skill sets... field intubation, chest tubes, PICC lines etc...I rarely get flak besides an occasional infantry NCO who likes to give me a hard time.