Need an education on RPA Pilots

[MomWPgirl]

Hope someone can give this Mom information on RPA pilots. My DS, AFROTC senior graduating in May recently called asking for my thoughts. He received a Public Affairs Officer slot.....his first choice as he is a communication/mixed media major and he was thrilled. Initially, he sought an RPA slot but felt he didnt have a chance so did not continue to persue it. He was informed today an RPA slot is open for him. Now he is unsure about which direction to go. I feel PA is where his gifts lie but the RPA slot truly excites him. My question is what type of opportunities are there for RPA pilots both in military and civilian environments. I dont know much about this area....any information is greatly appreciated.

[flieger83]

This is MPO...

An RPA pilot...they are in HIGH demand right now; both in the civilian (think gov't employee and agencies that might be interested in recon, intel, etc.) and military world. They are also "fairly" immune to drawdowns right now.

PA types...not to be insulting because they are VALUABLE FOLKS!!! But the "higher ups" always seem to target them FIRST for any cuts. I know I've been told "...we need an officer to speak with the press...we don't have a PA, you do it. Don't do anything stupid!" :eek:

RPA...better career path in the AF right now and in the foreseeable future. Again, IMHO.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[MomWPgirl]

Been doing some research myself....he would definitely be happier in the RPA pilot environment. Thanks for your opinion and insight. While his major fits better with PA his passion fits RPA. Glad to hear it is a solid initial career choice.

[scoutpilot]

Been doing some research myself....he would definitely be happier in the RPA pilot environment. Thanks for your opinion and insight. While his major fits better with PA his passion fits RPA. Glad to hear it is a solid initial career choice.

Does he not want to be a real pilot instead?

[MomWPgirl]

He would have loved a pilot slot but unfortunately his vision is slightly under the requirements. When he was told RPA was an option he pursued that avenue but initially did not get a slot....thus went PA due to the fact it matched his education background. Initially very bummed about not receiving RPA slot but he got over it and moved on. He is a bit concerned about the the RPA training though.......how math intensive is it? He does well in math, is extrememly logical but has not had any real math or technical classes for a few years now.

[Pima]

Listen to Flieger.

If I were you, I would gift him some lessons for private pilot. It will allow him a new perspective for his job.

[MomWPgirl]

Listen to Flieger.

If I were you, I would gift him some lessons for private pilot. It will allow him a new perspective for his job.

I would love to do that. He has to make his decision by 1700 today. Feel bad for him as he is making such an important decision with 24 hours notice. Needless to say, he is researching everything he can. Really leaning to RPA pilot, AF mentors encouraging him in that direction as well but his main concern is the academic portion......as his education has not been in the technical/math arena.

[MomWPgirl]

I have to think the AF would not offer him the slot though if they felt he couldnt handle it. Funny though......if he had been offered this a few months ago he would have jumped at it......now he is second guessing himself.

[Pima]

Tell him to go with his gut. Will he live 4 yrs AD regretting taking the PA and wondering if?

The AF does test using the TBAS and the AFOQT. I am assuming since it is rated he took the TBAS. Did he also apply NAV/CSO and ABM? Obviously for all of those slots vision is not a factor.

If it was my kid, and I knew a yr ago he would jump at it, I would ask him why you aren't jumping now?

Commitment owed?
Fear?

If it helps, DS is UPT selected and non-tech major. We don't have that fear. He scored very well on his ACT M/S, AFOQT, and TBAS. Flying in it's own way is the seat of your pants. You can be Boy/Girl Wonder for Math or Science, but that doesn't mean you have SA (Situation Awareness). It is what you do in the heat of the moment that is the make or break during training, not what you were taught in the classroom for Statistics or Organic Chemistry.

He could be an AFA grad, and still bust. Bullet at 111 FTU had a crew mate who was an AFA grad. He had every math and science class you could imagine. He flew gliders at the academy, but still he busted.

You can do the what ifs all day long. You can research everything until your mind is boggled. It really doesn't matter. There is no guarantee for anything, so pick your dream.

[MomWPgirl]

Tell him to go with his gut. Will he live 4 yrs AD regretting taking the PA and wondering if?

He could be an AFA grad, and still bust. Bullet at 111 FTU had a crew mate who was an AFA grad. He had every math and science class you could imagine. He flew gliders at the academy, but still he busted.


.

What happens if he busts?

[Stealth_81]

What happens if he busts?

That is a very hard question to answer right now for the Air Force. With the reduction in budget and staffing, it is harder to stay in the AF. Our son is at UPT right now (2011 USAFA grad) so he is seeing first-hand what is happening to the people who bust training.

Before your son would start RPA training, he would go to IFS (Initial Flight Screening) at Pueblo, Colorado to see if he has the potential to be a pilot. IFS is somewhat of a "private pilot course on steroids with military-type instructors". It lasts 7 weeks and it is where many of the candidates are washed out.

If a 2Lt fails IFS, the Air Force sends them back to their home base (for RPAs it would be Randolph), and they begin a process of finding another position for them based on their skill set and the needs of the Air Force. This can take up to 6 months, and the Lt will be put on a casual status job at the base (ie: collecting urine samples for drug tests or similar) while the process goes on. Some are recommended for separation, and some get other jobs. Right now according to son the split is about 50/50 at his base for staying in the AF after busting IFS. I talked to a mom whose son is doing RPAs from Randolph and she said that the IFS drop rate is somewhat higher for the RPA candidates than it is for the UPT candidates.

Stealth_81

[Bullet]

May be a little too late to add my perspective:

Know quite a few RPA pilots, and a few PA officers as well. Those in the RPA community seem to me to have a MUCH higher level of job satisfaction. No contest.

And like Flieger, I have nothing but admiration for the PA community. But the mission of the AF is to Fly, Fight, and Win. Reporting about it is secondary...

[MomWPgirl]

Well he chose the RPA slot. :shake: Thank you all for great insight and advice. Though Stealth-81....your perspective was a bit concerning for this Mom. IFS sounds as if it will challenge him like he has never been before but he is soooo excited about the challenge. Again, I sincerely thank you all as the last 24 hours has been a bit of a roller coaster. Between him and his sister at West Point I have so much to learn......

[raimius]

The RPA program is likely a bit different than the pilot program for IFS, and the program may have changed quite a bit in the past year or so.
Here is my write up: Edit

[MomWPgirl]

[QUOTE=raimius;217499]The RPA program is likely a bit different than the pilot program for IFS, and the program may have changed quite a bit in the past year or so.
Here is my write up: Edit

Ahhhhh..funny. I found this site earlier today. Very helpful! I sent it to my son. Thanks for writing it. Just sent him the link to the other forum. All information greatly appreciated!!!

[SamAca10]

Interesting....A couple of the first class cadets here at CGA did an internship where they explored how the Coast Guard would treat RPA pilots. Their findings found that mid-career officers in their 2nd or 3rd aviation tours would be the ideal candidates. Although I don't expect us to acquire UAV's anytime in the new future.

Don't you have a pilot slot waiting for you raimus?

[scoutpilot]

Interesting....A couple of the first class cadets here at CGA did an internship where they explored how the Coast Guard would treat RPA pilots. Their findings found that mid-career officers in their 2nd or 3rd aviation tours would be the ideal candidates. Although I don't expect us to acquire UAV's anytime in the new future.

Don't you have a pilot slot waiting for you raimus?

He's training right now to join America's third best helicopter corps.

[raimius]

I'm glad you value the Coast Guard and Navy so much, Scout. :wink:

[scoutpilot]

I'm glad you value the Coast Guard and Navy so much, Scout. :wink:

I said THIRD, not FOURTH.

[SamAca10]

He's training right now to join America's third best helicopter corps.

:thumb:

What types of missions do Air Force helicopters do?

Coast Guard....SAR and LE
Army.......Medevac, Special Forces, blowing S@#* up
Navy...... Mailship :wink:

[scoutpilot]

:thumb:

What types of missions do Air Force helicopters do?

Coast Guard....SAR and LE
Army.......Medevac, Special Forces, blowing S@#* up
Navy...... Mailship :wink:

No one's really sure...I don't think "getting in the way" is a real mission. :wink:

[raimius]

Combat Search and Rescue
Special Operations
ICBM base security
VIP transport

[hawk]

What types of missions do Air Force helicopters do?


For rusty memory I recall that USAF Helo's led the way in for Army copters in both Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom.

Some old thing called PAVE LOW's and PAVE HAWKS's? :rolleyes:

Not trying to defend the Air Force (especially after Saturday), but these are not insignificant roles, nor operational experience.

Add to that SAR in Europe (Bosnia timeframe) and Africa, etc.

[scoutpilot]

For rusty memory I recall that USAF Helo's led the way in for Army copters in both Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom.

Some old thing called PAVE LOW's and PAVE HAWKS's? :rolleyes:

Not trying to defend the Air Force (especially after Saturday), but these are not insignificant roles, nor operational experience.

Add to that SAR in Europe (Bosnia timeframe) and Africa, etc.

Uh, no. Not even close. Better luck next time.

I appreciate the use of the "rolleyes" icon. It really punctuated your completely erroneous statement well.

[flieger83]

SCOUT...

USAF Pave Low MH-53's led US Army AH-64's across the desert because they didn't have the navigational capability at the time...to strike the FIRST attack of Desert Storm.

The AH-64's destroyed the Iraqi integrated air defense/early warning command and control which opened a HUGE blind spot for the air armada to penetrate Iraqi airspace.

A beautiful example of the combined force! :thumb:

And the rest is history.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[hawk]

Uh, no. Not even close. Better luck next time.

I appreciate the use of the "rolleyes" icon. It really punctuated your completely erroneous statement well.

So what did I get wrong?

A) that the Air Force SOC flew (Flies??) the MH-53 PAVE LOW?
B) That they also fly the PAVE HAWK? (A pretty capable aircraft as well)
C) That USAF SOC PAVE LOW's were the first US helicopters in country in both Desert Storm and the later Iraqi invasions?
D) That they flew overt and covert SAR during multiple engagements in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and others since?? Not to mention their role in Panama.
E) That USAF SOC was the covert insertion method for many US and other special operations teams in Iraq, Panama, Kuwait, Serbia/Bosnia, A'stan, Africa, etc?
F) All of the above?

I'm just a dad of a cadet. You probably have forgotten more about choppers than I ever will. But with all respect, A-E all appear to be fairly well documented, in more than one place. Maybe it's just Air Force exaggeration, but they appear to have convinced lot's of others.

Task Force Normandy as the start of Desert Storm is extremely well documented and even the Army indicates the Appache's followed the Pave Lows into Iraq due to the terrain following radar and more accurate GPS. Yes, they did RTB per mission once the close to target and the Apache's had sync'd their nav to glow sticks left by the Pave Lows. And there is some documentation that Pave Low's were in country significantly before that in roles with SF and SAS.

I'm just curious at this point. The closest I got to a PAVE LOW is sitting in one and talking with it's crew about their combat experiences at an Air Show. I'm a private pilot and an RF Engineer, so I could relate to the electronics and their mission. PAVE HAWK sitting next to it was no slouch in that aspect either.

I guess I just don't get diss'ing a fairly well respected operational group with a long history of combat operations in partnership with the RA, even if it is in the Air Force. Or is there a dirty secret I missed? That it's actually Army chopper pilots in the USAF SOC?

If it's that the mission should sit in the Army, I'd agree, Heck, I think the Army should be flying the A-10 as well.

[scoutpilot]

So what did I get wrong?

A) that the Air Force SOC flew (Flies??) the MH-53 PAVE LOW?
B) That they also fly the PAVE HAWK? (A pretty capable aircraft as well)
C) That USAF SOC PAVE LOW's were the first US helicopters in country in both Desert Storm and the later Iraqi invasions?
D) That they flew overt and covert SAR during multiple engagements in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and others since?? Not to mention their role in Panama.
E) That USAF SOC was the covert insertion method for many US and other special operations teams in Iraq, Panama, Kuwait, Serbia/Bosnia, A'stan, Africa, etc?
F) All of the above?

I'm just a dad of a cadet. You probably have forgotten more about choppers than I ever will. But with all respect, A-E all appear to be fairly well documented, in more than one place. Maybe it's just Air Force exaggeration, but they appear to have convinced lot's of others.

Task Force Normandy as the start of Desert Storm is extremely well documented and even the Army indicates the Appache's followed the Pave Lows into Iraq due to the terrain following radar and more accurate GPS. Yes, they did RTB per mission once the close to target and the Apache's had sync'd their nav to glow sticks left by the Pave Lows. And there is some documentation that Pave Low's were in country significantly before that in roles with SF and SAS.

I'm just curious at this point. The closest I got to a PAVE LOW is sitting in one and talking with it's crew about their combat experiences at an Air Show. I'm a private pilot and an RF Engineer, so I could relate to the electronics and their mission. PAVE HAWK sitting next to it was no slouch in that aspect either.

I guess I just don't get diss'ing a fairly well respected operational group with a long history of combat operations in partnership with the RA, even if it is in the Air Force. Or is there a dirty secret I missed? That it's actually Army chopper pilots in the USAF SOC?

If it's that the mission should sit in the Army, I'd agree, Heck, I think the Army should be flying the A-10 as well.

C and E. The Pave Lows were not the first helicopters into Iraq. Period. They led a flight of Apaches who opened a radar corridor, but that was not even close to being the first helicopter mission into Iraq.

No, Pave Lows are not the primary method of SOF insertion. Especially not Army SOF. There are units dedicated to that. Figure out how ODA 595 and 555 got into Afghanistan and you'll have it figured out.

Yes, Pave Lows led a flight of Apaches. No, they did not lead the first US helicopters into Iraq in 1990 or 2003 or Afghanistan.

[hawk]

C and E. The Pave Lows were not the first helicopters into Iraq. Period. They led a flight of Apaches who opened a radar corridor, but that was not even close to being the first helicopter mission into Iraq.

No, Pave Lows are not the primary method of SOF insertion. Especially not Army SOF. There are units dedicated to that. Figure out how ODA 595 and 555 got into Afghanistan and you'll have it figured out.

Yes, Pave Lows led a flight of Apaches. No, they did not lead the first US helicopters into Iraq in 1990 or 2003 or Afghanistan.

OK, if this is a Little Bird vs Pave Low debate I'll concede. Go Nightstalkers! You probably know more about both than I ever will due to your background.

The references I've seen list the Pave Low as the first helo entering Iraqi airspace on the first offensive combat mission. (Also described as the start of the "air war", "start of the war", etc). Yes, they were on a pathfinder mission, but they did lead the flight of Apache's, with the Apache's following them for several reasons. That's significant, and utilized their (at the time) unique capability. They have also been listed as the 1st coalition aircraft on Kuwait City Intl and the 1st coalition aicraft at U.S. embassy in Kuwait City

Likewise, I never said the Pave Lows were the primary insertion for SOF. I said they were used in many, and they were. Remember, there were other operational forces in early than just US Army SF. But accounts I've read indicated USAF Pave Lows were active with SF units in various roles in addition to any intrinsic capability.

Same for CSAR, based on multiple US Mil references, the Pave Low is on record as the first CSAR of the war.

Maybe all the documentation is wrong, maybe there were other strikes prior to Taskforce Normandy in desert shield/storm, it's not worth arguing.

But it's a bit disenginous to imply the USAF (warts and all) has no role in modern Helo military ops.

If you want to say the Army knows more about helo's than the USAF ever will, I won't argue. But dismiss the role & history of Pave Lows and Pave Hawks entirely?

[scoutpilot]

OK, if this is a Little Bird vs Pave Low debate I'll concede. Go Nightstalkers! You probably know more about both than I ever will due to your background.

The references I've seen list the Pave Low as the first helo entering Iraqi airspace on the first offensive combat mission. (Also described as the start of the "air war", "start of the war", etc). Yes, they were on a pathfinder mission, but they did lead the flight of Apache's, with the Apache's following them for several reasons. That's significant, and utilized their (at the time) unique capability. They have also been listed as the 1st coalition aircraft on Kuwait City Intl and the 1st coalition aicraft at U.S. embassy in Kuwait City

Likewise, I never said the Pave Lows were the primary insertion for SOF. I said they were used in many, and they were. Remember, there were other operational forces in early than just US Army SF. But accounts I've read indicated USAF Pave Lows were active with SF units in various roles in addition to any intrinsic capability.

Same for CSAR, based on multiple US Mil references, the Pave Low is on record as the first CSAR of the war.

Maybe all the documentation is wrong, maybe there were other strikes prior to Taskforce Normandy in desert shield/storm, it's not worth arguing.

But it's a bit disenginous to imply the USAF (warts and all) has no role in modern Helo military ops.

If you want to say the Army knows more about helo's than the USAF ever will, I won't argue. But dismiss the role & history of Pave Lows and Pave Hawks entirely?

You probably have better sources. We'll go with your version.

Back on track.

[hawk]

You probably have better sources. We'll go with your version.

Back on track.

Nah, I've already conceded to your experience and presumed sources. Just a dad here with an an mil aviation interest. In college way back I wanted to go ANG Aviation but vision ruled that out. Even would have signed up for OV-10's with the Marines had I been able to get a vision waiver with the local reserve outfit.

I guess most of the really interesting stuff SOAR (ARSOA??) did/does won't show up in books or websites for a long time. Most of what I've read/heard about involves their Chinooks.