Slot selection at UPT

[pilot2b]

It's commonly said that only the top students have a realistic shot at tracking into the T-38, and ultimately into fighters. About a year and a half ago when I was at Columbus AFB for a week mingling with some of the UPT students, it seemed that not many (at least compared to what I expected) intended to put down the T-38 and eventually a fighter at the top of their wish list.

In fact, the only person I heard mention that he wanted fighters was a single zoomie.

Does anyone (bullet, flieger...?) know what percentage of UPT students want to fly fighters and put that at the top of their list?

:tomcat:

[flieger83]

Great question but I am sorry to say, I don't know the answer. :frown:

"Back in the day" when I went to UPT, on the first night there was a reception (I was at Columbus AFB) and we all "met and mingled" with folks: IP's, wing staff, city officials, etc. And we all discussed what we "wanted" to fly.

I'd bet the VAST majority of my class wanted to fly fighters. Of course, there were a couple of "caveats" then:

a. The classes were bigger; we had two flights and a total of 57 folks.
b. About 90% of our class was from USAFA; fighters were like a symbol of "manhood" amongst the guys.

Interesting...MOST of the non-USAFA guys that were NOT foreign nationals, wanted heavies. And they were uniformly more successful in getting their first choices than were the rest of us! :eek:

And my last comment...as a guy that was HEAVILY blessed in that during my career I've been qualified in trainers, fighters, and heavies...there is NO bad flying job! Each and every one of them has a unique mission with unique demands and will challenge the best pilot!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[Stealth_81]

Our son's class has 20 students in it. 13 are from USAFA, two Guard, two Reserves, two Saudis, and one ROTC. They have been told to expect 6 or 7 of them to get T-38s. Since the Saudis and one of the Guard guys will get 38s, that only leaves 3 or 4 for the rest. However, son said that there are only 3 in the class who have said that they definitely are shooting for a T-38. The rest are either going to try for a heavy or don't have a preference (so they say).

The class that just graduated at Laughlin had 7 in their class of 22 who tracked T-38, and of those they got one fighter (F-16) and one bomber (B-1). The other T-38 guys got MC-12s (two of them), one got AC-130U, one got a C-17, and the other got a T-6 FAIP.

Stealth_81

[raimius]

That class didn't start with 22. Some people tracked to different bases--1 to Rucker and 4 to Corpus Christie. Plus, wash-backs and wash-outs.

Generally, more people put -38s first than get them. It is not the whole class though. Also remember that what people want and what is available will vary by each class. If I remember right, 10-15 people in the class put -38s first, but only 7 got them.

Also, people's preferences change over time. I know a couple people who where dead set on -38s that did not put it first. I also know a couple people who put helos first, but decided half-way through.

Some people realize the "yank and bank" style of flying isn't for them. Others like the idea of traveling the world. Some want crew aircraft. Some started to learn more about the lifestyle of fighter pilots, and had second thoughts. Others learned just how much fun aerobatics is...

[scoutpilot]

That class didn't start with 22. Some people tracked to different bases--1 to Rucker and 4 to Corpus Christie. Plus, wash-backs and wash-outs.

Generally, more people put -38s first than get them. It is not the whole class though. Also remember that what people want and what is available will vary by each class. If I remember right, 10-15 people in the class put -38s first, but only 7 got them.

Also, people's preferences change over time. I know a couple people who where dead set on -38s that did not put it first. I also know a couple people who put helos first, but decided half-way through.

Some people realize the "yank and bank" style of flying isn't for them. Others like the idea of traveling the world. Some want crew aircraft. Some started to learn more about the lifestyle of fighter pilots, and had second thoughts. Others learned just how much fun aerobatics is...

Some people (like Raimius) wake up and realize that airplanes are for rookies!

[legof16]

Right now there is a big difference between the number of people that actually want to fly fighters and the number that are willing to put it down on their sheet following T-6's.

I went through UPT 22+ years ago and back then, just about everyone wanted a fighter. Competition was often cutthroat with each person constantly asking how you did on this or that ride.

Today, things have changed for a number of reasons. I just spent the weekend with the commander of one of the UPT squadrons and we were talking about how it has changed.

Here are a couple of problems with the current system. To pick a fighter you have to track in the T-38.
1) T-38 is definitely harder, the washout rate is significantly higher than that of the heavy track. You could have been the #1 student in the T-6's, and know that you will easily get through the Airlift/Tanker track. If you choose to go T-38's and you wash out. It's all over, you don't get to go back and go through the Airlift/Tanker track. You are removed from training. That can be an immediate career-ender for some. People that already have a family and a vested interest in definitely maintaining a job are often putting down the Heavy Track for this reason.

2) If you do get through the T-38 Track, your chances of getting a fighter are still quite limited. Right now the AF is selecting first assignment "Predator: pilots, MC-12 Pilots, and other assignments such as (I read in one of the posts above) AC-130's, etc. With the cutback in fighter wings as we draw down again, there will be very limited fighter slots.

3) If you get a fighter slot, there is a high probability that you will not stay in fighters, or flying, for your career. First, You will first have to get through FTU (initial training in your fighter). This can be up to 7+ months for fighters. If you wash out here... again, it can be game over. I saw several people wash out not to return to flying anything. Some, if they were lucky, were able to transfer to another aircraft... but it's a craps roll.

If you do make it through RTU, you will arrive at your first base as a wingman. Depending where you are, you can expect to be at that base for 2-3 years. When you PCS (Change bases), many people found that they were leaving the Fighter world to be ALO (Air Liaison Officers with the Army, Reaper (Unmanned aerial vehicle pilot, MC-12 pilot, etc). 6+ years ago, this wasn't a big problem, you went off did your tour in another weapon system, and then came back to your Fighter. Unfortunately, because of the drawdown, currently, many people are not returning to fighters. Once the Unmanned Vehicle guys have you... it is a fight to get back. If you don't return to the F-16 within 5 years, you will never go back as it required a a whole FTU course for an inexperienced pilot (which is where a lot of wingmen or new flight leads are after 1 tour). Bottom line - I saw several talented fighter pilots sucked out of the F-16 never to return.

The pilots at UPT will be straight up with you about all of these type issues. The bottom line is that if you select T-38's with the dreams of flying a fighter, you have a much higher chance of washing out, 2) If you make it, a small chance of getting a fighter. 3) If you get a fighter, you have a probably 30-40% chance that after 1 or 2 assignments you will be shipped off to the UAV world with a difficult road ahead of you to stay in Fighters for 20 years like we used to in the past.

The UPT Squadron Commander says that all these issues weigh heavily when it comes time to select which track you want to go. Now days you are really rolling the bones to get a Fighter and stay in it. If that is what you want, my best advice is do the best you can at every single thing you can. We used to laugh at quarterly awards and the initial schools like SOS (Squadron Officer School), etc. Nowdays, those are discriminators to a lot of things (such as if you are in a fighter, staying in it).

Hope that helps, this thread was kind of old, but I'm up and can't sleep so thought I'd throw a couple words in.

Cheers
Lego

[hornetguy]

I'll chip in just with the experiences of a few of my classmates who just finished T-38 training. One was T-38s in Laughlin, two out of Columbus. In both sets, the T-38 classes only had one fighter drop and one bomber drop. The rest of their classes were MC-12s, C-17, and KC-135s. My friends got MC-12 and KC-135s. They were all a bit disappointed.

BUT, things are happening in the AF right now that may change this whole equation within the next five years. Don't bank on the current system staying like this for long.

[scoutpilot]

Or be smart and fly like a big boy in a rotary wing chariot of death.

[pilot2b]

Or be smart and fly like a big boy in a rotary wing chariot of death.

You mean that loose formation of nuts and bolts? :yllol:

[Nateman15]

One of our commissionees is headed off to ENJJPT, so i ask...

Where does ENJJPT fit in with all of this? It is quite hard to find details about drops and washouts and such. Is ENJJPT more difficult than UPT?

[Pima]

Nate,

You are missing a component even for ENJPPT. IFS.

One hurdle at a time. You can't go UPT if you bust IFS.

Curiosity, why do you want ENJJPT? Fighter guarantee?

[Nateman15]

Pima,

Thats a valid point. I just see that ENJJPT is almost more "prestigious"? What really makes it different?

The higher caliber of ENJJPT really intrigues me. If I really want to go the fighter path, I feel like ENJJPT is my best bet.

[hornetguy]

Pima,

Thats a valid point. I just see that ENJJPT is almost more "prestigious"? What really makes it different?

The higher caliber of ENJJPT really intrigues me. If I really want to go the fighter path, I feel like ENJJPT is my best bet.

Not necessarily is the short answer.

[sprog]

I don't even think there is a fighter/bomber guarantee out of ENJJPT anymore. There used to be, for sure, but I'm not sure that is still the case. Check out baseops.net and ask over there.

[hornetguy]

I don't even think there is a fighter/bomber guarantee out of ENJJPT anymore. There used to be, for sure, but I'm not sure that is still the case. Check out baseops.net and ask over there.

It is not a guarantee anymore. Their last drop was pretty darn sweet, but previous ones looked an awful lot like all the other UPT drops. But it is always changing. In four years who knows what they will have chosen to do with it. Heck, they may not even have the program then!

[raimius]

Traditionally, ENJJPT got more fighter slots, but that's only partially true now (compared with people who get T-38s). What ENJJPT does get you these days is the T-38 and associated drops. That means the percentage of fighters is going to be higher than those who enter JSUPT at Laughlin, Vance, or Columbus.

[hornetguy]

However, another consideration is that you may have several classmates at the other three bases who do not want T-38s or their associated drops reducing that pool which is generally not the case at ENJJPT.

Regardless, all you can control is your own work. If you aren't bringing your best, it doesn't matter which program you go into. Without nabbing those top spots, you will be at the mercy of the system.

[skt]

At our local parents meeting, a parent of a 2011 grad indicated that if you wash out of UPT, they can choose not to offer you another assignment in which case you are required to pay back the cost of the Academy education. He said that some of his son's friends are in that situation right now. Did he misunderstand his son's explanation (or perhaps I misundertood him) or is it true that, if you wash out of pilot training, you may be required to "pay back" just as if you willingly didn't go forward with your 5 year commitment?

[hornetguy]

At our local parents meeting, a parent of a 2011 grad indicated that if you wash out of UPT, they can choose not to offer you another assignment in which case you are required to pay back the cost of the Academy education. He said that some of his son's friends are in that situation right now. Did he misunderstand his son's explanation (or perhaps I misundertood him) or is it true that, if you wash out of pilot training, you may be required to "pay back" just as if you willingly didn't go forward with your 5 year commitment?

Yes. One of my best friends is in that situation. He is fortunate to have been picked up to become a sheriff while his wife is still active duty. He has to pay back, but they still are saying no to paying the government so the worst the government sans do is garnish 15% of his wages.

However, this is highly unusual and happened as the USAF was desperate to get rid of people.

[Eagle 1]

I'm just curious, does anyone have any insight about going helos out of UPT?

My plan is to fly Pavehawks for CSAR but there's not much information I can find about the process other than helo pilots go to Fort Rucker.

[hornetguy]

I'm just curious, does anyone have any insight about going helos out of UPT?

My plan is to fly Pavehawks for CSAR but there's not much information I can find about the process other than helo pilots go to Fort Rucker.

Raimius is in helo training and can give you some insights when he is around.

[raimius]

I did a couple blog posts about it here: http://www.usafacommunity.com/forum/blogs/raimius/

Other than putting your wishes first on your dream sheet and doing the best you can, what questions do you have?

[Stealth_81]

Son made it through Phase II of UPT. He had his formation check ride two weeks ago. He selected the T-38 track for Phase III so he will hopefully be heading to fighters next February. Now for another 6 month wait until drop night to see what airframe he gets! :rolleyes:

For what it's worth, the rules seem to have changed a bit in the few months since the earlier posts on this thread. The drops have gotten much better, with some classes getting 4 or 5 fighters out of T-38. Also, the chance to go heavies out of T-38 has been removed, so if you don't get a fighter or bomber you will get an AFSOC aircraft or FAIP.

Stealth_81

[aggie83]

Congratulations to your son! And thanks for keeping us updated on the latest happenings in UPT.

[Stealth_81]

Son had his dollar ride in the T-38 yesterday. I don't often see him get very excited, but he obviously had a good time with it. He was able to make a couple of landings and perform an Immelmann turn which he said was an amazing amount of fun for a first flight. Out in the MOA flying at 500 knots isn't much different than flying at 200 knots in the T-6 in his opinion, but he said the landings seem to happen a lot faster.

Our 22 year-old daughter is down in Texas for a week visiting him so she was able to be there for it. She's having a good time meeting all of his pilot trainee friends, too!:shake:

Stealth_81

[scoutpilot]

Son had his dollar ride in the T-38 yesterday. I don't often see him get very excited, but he obviously had a good time with it. He was able to make a couple of landings and perform an Immelmann turn which he said was an amazing amount of fun for a first flight. Out in the MOA flying at 500 knots isn't much different than flying at 200 knots in the T-6 in his opinion, but he said the landings seem to happen a lot faster.

Our 22 year-old daughter is down in Texas for a week visiting him so she was able to be there for it. She's having a good time meeting all of his pilot trainee friends, too!:shake:

Stealth_81

Congrats to him. Never heard the term "dollar ride" before (we had a nickel ride, but we lack the AF's inflated budget :wink:).

[Pima]

Stealth,

Congrats to your DS. I did laugh at one part of your post.
Our 22 year-old daughter is down in Texas for a week visiting him so she was able to be there for it. She's having a good time meeting all of his pilot trainee friends, too!

I need to use all of my fingers and toes for counting purposes regarding how many sisters visit a sibling (ADAF) and end up marrying someone in their squadron. At Elmendorf in the 3 yrs we were there there were 5 sisters that met, and married someone in the 90th. That was just 1 assignment.

Our DS is aware of this, and because of that he has already said his sister is banned from visiting him until she is married. Than again, it could also be that his GF of 2 yrs was introduced to him by his sister. Her BFF.

When is assignment night? He has to be happy, because he is getting closer to that day everyday.

[Stealth_81]

Pima,

I don't think she'll be looking for romance while she's down there. Her long-time boyfriend (6'4" 4-year-college-starter offensive lineman) probably wouldn't take too kindly to that, either.:shake:

Son's drop night (assignment night) is in late January and his graduation is in early February. Since the events are two weeks apart I am torn on what to do. I can be fiscally conservative (ie. cheap), and only go for one event (it would be graduation). Otherwise I would have to either fly down there twice in 14 days or stay down there for two weeks. Neither is an inexpensive option.

Stealth_81

[flieger83]

And when does your NEXT son have a drop night and a UPT graduation?? :biggrin:
(he said, twisting the guilt dagger...)

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[Pima]

Why don't you just leave it to him? We are still a ways away from that being on our radar, but I have a sneaking feeling we will only go to one of them unless DS says he wants us at both.

OBTW Flieger, you just made me feel really guilty because I realized when Bullet went through WSO assignment night, same type of function (formal), he was there by himself. I flew out only for his graduation, and his folks didn't come. NJ to Cali in 88 wasn't cheap, I think it is cheaper to fly to CA in today dollars, and not including inflation now than it was 24 yrs ago :confused:

I guess we can thank SWA for that! :shake:

[Stealth_81]

And when does your NEXT son have a drop night and a UPT graduation??

He will be applying for the class of 2019 so I am guessing sometime in 2021.:biggrin:

Of course, THAT son is also interested in USNA, so it may be a bit different!

Stealth_81

[Pima]

I am sure it will be...you can get a direct flight to their UPT base compared to OMG Del Rio!

[Christcorp]

I was fortunate that during the entire 4 year academy experience, it didn't really cost us anything to see our son. 2 hours away, we either drove there or he drove home. Things are now different. He's got grad school and then pilot training. We are already planning on visiting him around veteran's day. (Air Force plays San Diego State so it also gives me a reason to see my falcons). But I hope to go again when he graduates grad school. I'll probably do the same for pilot school graduation and possibly Drop night.

I am considered by many to be: "The Eternal Optimist". I always rationalize and find the good in things. When I think of how much money I have save just in the 4 years of his college (Academy) experience; I can rationalize a few trips over an 8 year period. Wow; just realized that he'll be a captain by the time he gets to drop night.

Oh well; I know you are really proud of your son stealth. The 2 week separation does kind of suck. 1 week would have been better. If I could only choose 1, it would be graduation obviously. We didn't go down to the academy when our son got his job/assignment/grad selection. We probably won't go to anything other than graduation.

[Bullet]

Personal opinion from a guy who has been around (and personally epxerienced) "drop nights" and grad ceremonies.

Drop nights are usually the time / place you celebrate with (or cry on the should of) your bro's. Lots of "celebrating, fraternity style" going on in a very informal atmosphere. Nice to have the family there to celebrate / commisurate with you? Sure. But you'd rather do it with your classmates you worked so hard with over the past months. Significant others ae welcome (and tolerated). Moms and Dads? Weeeeeellllllll, they are tolerated.


Graduation ceremonies? Entirely different story. You want to have everyone there to celebrate your accomplishment in an "official" way. Perfect time for family and friends to get those photo ops of you getting your wings in service dress. Celebration party tends to be a little less "push it up".

Stealth, I know you want to be there for your son on such momentous occasions such as these. But if I had to chose between the two, I'm betting he'd prefer you were at the more formal one. But I guess the best answer is to ask HIM (which you probably already know).

[hornetguy]

I was fortunate that during the entire 4 year academy experience, it didn't really cost us anything to see our son. 2 hours away, we either drove there or he drove home. Things are now different. He's got grad school and then pilot training. We are already planning on visiting him around veteran's day. (Air Force plays San Diego State so it also gives me a reason to see my falcons). But I hope to go again when he graduates grad school. I'll probably do the same for pilot school graduation and possibly Drop night.

I am considered by many to be: "The Eternal Optimist". I always rationalize and find the good in things. When I think of how much money I have save just in the 4 years of his college (Academy) experience; I can rationalize a few trips over an 8 year period. Wow; just realized that he'll be a captain by the time he gets to drop night.

Oh well; I know you are really proud of your son stealth. The 2 week separation does kind of suck. 1 week would have been better. If I could only choose 1, it would be graduation obviously. We didn't go down to the academy when our son got his job/assignment/grad selection. We probably won't go to anything other than graduation.

Oh so rough to come out to Santa Monica for visits. ;)

[Stealth_81]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81

[flieger83]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81
AWESOME!!! :thumb:

Give him my best!!!
:groupwave:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
(on the East side of the Valley of the Sun)

[scoutpilot]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81

What a shame...there must not have been any R/W slots left. Oh well, he should be okay! :thumb:

[Pima]

Congrats! He must be over the moon!

:jump1:

[Bullet]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81

Haven't posted in a while. THIS is something worth breaking my silence for!

FANTASTIC for him! I am so happy for him and for you! Awesome bird, (despite the fact it only has one engine and one seat).

Gongrats to him on a job well done!:thumb:

[NorwichDad]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81

Congrats to him. Great News!! He must be so happy.

[Stealth_81]

What a shame...there must not have been any R/W slots left. Oh well, he should be okay! :thumb:

Yes, I think he will be fine. :shake: One interesting thing was that there was a CV-22 slot open on the drop sheet that they had to choose from. I had only seen them available before to the Ft. Rucker grads, but the T-38s had one this time. (I think Son put it #19 out of 20 on his drop sheet)

Stealth_81

[raimius]

Update: Son had his drop night tonight and got assigned to F-16s at Luke AFB.

Stealth_81

Tell him congrats for me.

[aggie83]

Congrats on him getting what airframe he wanted! That is sweet! If he likes the outdoors, I think he will love Phoenix. My nephew and his wife loved it while they were there for his F-16 training.

[Pima]

Stealth,

So how was the winging? Details please!

[Stealth_81]

Stealth,

So how was the winging? Details please!

His winging will be coming up on Friday. We're leaving tomorrow to head down there for the festivities.

Winging is two weeks after drop night. You will get to know the rotation after your son starts. Classes start every three weeks, so each Friday is a different event. Son's class (class 13-05) had drop night a week ago. This past Friday class 13-13 had their track select. Next Friday will be 13-05 graduation, and then a week after that class 13-06 will have their drop night, etc....

The week after drop night has been very busy for flights. Son has flown every day with several double-turns. Highlight was a couple of 4-ship formation flights. The fighter guys start learning their maneuvers and the heavy guys practice refueling formation flying.

Son did get his IFF dates and his RNLT date to Luke so it has already been an exciting week.

Stealth_81

[Stealth_81]

Graduation has been a great time. Thursday night started it off with formal retreat at 1700 followed by a reception at the O-Club. Many of the Officer Spouses clubs had tables set up for their fundraisers. (I spent a good chunk of money on momentos and t-shirts.)

Friday we had a great breakfast at the O-Club at 0800 and then graduation/awards/winging in the auditorium at 1000. Afterward there were tours and the opportunity to use the simulators. I found that I could take off in the T-38 sim, but landing was more difficult. It is not very forgiving and I was able to get it back on the runway but at too high of a speed so I blew out the tires on my landing gear and crashed. Tonight we had the formal dinner and class videos. Laughlin really put on a good time for everyone.

Son did very well with graduation awards. He received the Commanders award for highest airmanship scores (daily rides and check rides) in the T-38, the Flying Training Award for highest overall MASS score for his class, and also the Distinguished Graduate Award for T-38s for being #1 in his class.

Stealth_81

[NorwichDad]

Graduation has been a great time. Thursday night started it off with formal retreat at 1700 followed by a reception at the O-Club. Many of the Officer Spouses clubs had tables set up for their fundraisers. (I spent a good chunk of money on momentos and t-shirts.)

Friday we had a great breakfast at the O-Club at 0800 and then graduation/awards/winging in the auditorium at 1000. Afterward there were tours and the opportunity to use the simulators. I found that I could take off in the T-38 sim, but landing was more difficult. It is not very forgiving and I was able to get it back on the runway but at too high of a speed so I blew out the tires on my landing gear and crashed. Tonight we had the formal dinner and class videos. Laughlin really put on a good time for everyone.

Son did very well with graduation awards. He received the Commanders award for highest airmanship scores (daily rides and check rides) in the T-38, the Flying Training Award for highest overall MASS score for his class, and also the Distinguished Graduate Award for T-38s for being #1 in his class.

Stealth_81


Congrats and Best wishes to your son. He is well on his way. He must have been very happy you and your family are there.

[EDelahanty]

Graduation has been a great time. Thursday night started it off with formal retreat at 1700 followed by a reception at the O-Club. Many of the Officer Spouses clubs had tables set up for their fundraisers. (I spent a good chunk of money on momentos and t-shirts.)

Friday we had a great breakfast at the O-Club at 0800 and then graduation/awards/winging in the auditorium at 1000. Afterward there were tours and the opportunity to use the simulators. I found that I could take off in the T-38 sim, but landing was more difficult. It is not very forgiving and I was able to get it back on the runway but at too high of a speed so I blew out the tires on my landing gear and crashed. Tonight we had the formal dinner and class videos. Laughlin really put on a good time for everyone.

Son did very well with graduation awards. He received the Commanders award for highest airmanship scores (daily rides and check rides) in the T-38, the Flying Training Award for highest overall MASS score for his class, and also the Distinguished Graduate Award for T-38s for being #1 in his class.

Stealth_81

This flying stuff is way above my head, but congratulations and best wishes to your son. Nice that you got to play with the toys.