the academies... difference?

[chosun57]

Apart from the branch of military that u join, is there a difference in terms of education you recieve at each of the academies? mainly focusing on engineering and international relations sections.

[hornetguy]

USAFA is far more technically oriented and is known for the most rigorourus academics of the 5 academies.

[Luigi59]

USAFA is far more technically oriented and is known for the most rigorourus academics of the 5 academies.

Says the USAFA cadet. :biglaugh:

[Just_A_Mom]

Oh Hornetguy - surely a biased comment.
What is rigor anyway? What is easy for one person is rigorous for another.


But I digress.

Chosun57 -
Yes, there are different curricula at the different academies. The services are different. I suggest you actively peruse the academy websites paying attention to the Academic sections, the majors offered.
For engineering - all academies have excellent engineering programs but it depends on what kind of engineering you are interested in. If you want Aeronautical engineering then you won't get that at USMA but you will get one of the top Civil engineering deptartments in the country.

International Relations - seriously check out USMA. They have a top notch program and excellent foreign language department. There are also many opportunites to study abroad for either a semester or over spring or summer break.
http://www.dean.usma.edu/departments/sosh/Academic%20Program/IR%20Program.htm

[hornetguy]

Fine, ask cadets that have exchanged to USAFA. They tell the same story. Seems everything I say is offensive...

[Luigi59]

Fine, ask cadets that have exchanged to USAFA. They tell the same story. Seems everything I say is offensive...

Not offended at all, just amused at your "homerism." :biggrin:

[hornetguy]

Not directed to you Luigi. ;)

[Just_A_Mom]

I wasn't offended at all - same as Luigi - amused. I am still not sure if you were serious or not but your comment did nothing to help the OP who asked a good question. If you want this forum to be a fact-based forum then it probably is a good idea to present facts, as opposed to presenting a biased opinion as fact. (we get enough of that in the press).

[hornetguy]

Um, I gave facts. USAFA is known as the most academicaaly rigorous of the 5 academies. It is known for its astonautical and aeronautical programs. It is also rated as a top business school. USAFA cadets tend to also get very high grades when doing service academy exchanges. Over half of the 4.0s in the 2-dig classes each year are due to their time at another academy. If you somehow think that its a bash to WP or any other academies to say we're the most academically rigorous, then you need to get real and look at each academies' service's missions. Our mission is the most technologically heavy of the 5 and we need the greater emphasize on technical classes which tends to drive the academic rigor up.

Chosun - if you're looking for a technical degree and/or military job, USAFA and USNA are probably the ones to investigate. If you are looking for more foreign area studies or political science or civil engineering type jobs/degrees, USMA is the one to investigate. Also figure out what you want to be and search which SERVICE fits your desires. That, I think, is the better way to go. All the Academies offer top knotch educations.

[zachogden]

To bounce off of what Hornet said a little bit, all of the service academies offer some of the best undergrad educations in the world. That is a fact that is not and cannot be argued. If you want to try and discern which academy has the "best" education, that's where things start to get sticky. The most important difference between USMA, USNA, USAFA and USCGA is what service you will be in 4 years after reporting in day. In my humble opinion it is much more crucial to decide what service you would like to join rather than what the Academy itself offers.

[fencersmother]

Sounds like what ZachO says is pretty close to the truth. Each service has a different mission and will have its strengths and even a few weaknesses. Decide where you want to be 5 or 10 years down the road, then find out which might be a better fit for you. If all the SA's seem perfect, pursue them all (but that's my opinion). My sons were USAFA as their top choice, and USNA as second choice. Got into both with Nom and Apptmt but there was really no question about which they really wanted.

[ds52262]

Daughter attended NASS and USAFA SS. Was appointed to WP first followed by USAFA, and withdrew from USNA just prior to appointment offer. She was raised in an Air Force family (Mom and Dad both retired) Grandparents and Aunt's and Uncles all retired USAF. A lillte bit of bias. As the offers were coming back she said "Dad I could see myself attending USNA, but wouldn't know what to do in the Navy".

As was said before each school has a purpose. You will get a solid BS degree no matter where you attend. If you are interested in Science and Space or Flight USAFA is probably the place for you. If you are interested in the Sea Navy is your place. If Blowing things up is your thing try West Point.

[mom3boys]

I hope the students who are really confused about which academy to attend will do research other than reading your post. While I know you were attempting to be humorous, the students who read this site are reaching out for help and presenting such narrow views of the different academies really does them no help at all.

Someone who really does not have a preference needs to spend time 1)visiting the academies, 2)researching available career paths available throught the different branches, and 3) researching available majors at each academy.

No matter which academy you choose, the path is long and arduous. Once you survive the hell of the summer training, you have to have the wherewithall to figure out how to balance priorities to make it through the academic year. This is not a road for the faint of heart. Getting in is half the battle. Surviving what they have to throw at you is the rest. Good luck to all who strive for this lofty achievement.

[ds52262]

Actually Mom as someone who spent a career, 21 years in the Air Force. It really is that simple. You can become a Doctor, Lawyer, Pilot, Astronaut etc. no matter which Academy you choose. The end result is a BS degree that carries a lot of weight. The real difference is which branch of the Military best suits you. I have spent time working directly with Army, Navy, Marines and CG.

My time with the Army was spent in lovely locations living in Tents supporting them while they blew things up! Same with the Marines. My time with the Navy and CG was at a working surface ship base & technical school. I never went to sea (I knew with one short trip in a small ship on a large bay it wouldn't work out).

This isn't to say everyone in the Army will be in the feild killing people and breaking things (but it is their job), or that everyone in the Navy will be on a ship or sub sailing the sea's. It just is a lot more likely!:thumb:

[Christcorp]

I totally agree. I am not going to say which academy is better or worse academically. I have my preference and everyone knows that. Personally, I believe that a young person who is interested in the academy, SHOULD pretty much know in their heart which branch they want. I'm not saying that they might not have doubts, but there should be little question about which one they want. Maybe the decision is based on family ancestry and tradition. Maybe it's based on what you want to do once commissioned. E.g. pilot, nuclear energy, engineer, etc... What does concern me, and nothing personal against the original poster so don't MISREAD what I'm saying, is that there are a lot of times where questions comparing the different academies come up where it is so easy to see the poster's underlying motivation. They are interested in going to a top notch school to get a top notch education.

Now, is there anything wrong with that? No. But, in my humble opinion, a college education should NOT be the primary reason for attending a military academy. It should be in the type of military officer it can prepare you to be, so you can most effectively lead our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines during peace time and at times of war. Sorry, but that is what I truly believe. Some people may feel that they will become a better officer, because of their personality and style, if they attend ROTC. Again, another great choice. Some, find their "Calling" later on after having graduated from college on their own. Again, a good decision. The academy is another means to a goal.

Let's be totally honest. There are 5 types of people when discussing the military. Those who are totally against it. (They aren't part of this discussion). They who are very supportive of the military, but it's just not for them personally. I can respect that. It's definitely not for everyone. But, of the remaining who do attend the military, there are 3 types. Those who really aspire to be in the military. Whether it's as an enlisted person or officer after college. They have wanted the military for years. This is what they have dreamed of. Obviously, those are the ones you hope are enlisting. Then there's those who join for the sole purpose of the benefits. Whether it's a free education; medical/dental; retirement after 20 years; etc... These folks have no problem serving; whether it's 4 years enlisted, 5 years out of the academy, or up to 20 years and a retirement. For them however, the priority has been the benefits, and they are willing to back a certain price through service for those benefits. Maybe a different set of priorities, but understandable. I prefer those who want to serve, even if the benefits weren't there. They now there are benefits, but their primary priority is serving. When you see pro football players leaving the game, in order to serve, then you understand. That's how many of our fathers and grandfathers were during WWII. Of course, there's also the 3rd group. Those who have graduated high school or college and have nothing else lined up. The military is a place that is an option to get them out from where they are. Again, nothing wrong with this, just that a person needs to recognize this and admit it to THEMSELVES.

No one has to admit publicly that they are joining the military because they have nothing else going for them; or that they are in it for the benefits; or that they want to serve and that's the only reason. All anyone should do is be true to themselves. At least admit to yourself WHY you are serving. Then you can make the best choice.

The academy however is a very unique situation. Whether it's air force, west point, Annapolis, coast guard or merchant marines, the scenario is the same. This is the number 1 place where military officers are born. Nothing against commissioning via ROTC or OTS, but academy officers are a different breed. Generally speaking, they will usually go further and higher in their military career. And in my opinion, rightfully so. So, when choosing the academy, any academy, I personally believe that it should be for the person who's dream is to be a military officer when they grow up. To serve their country during peace time and war. To lead young men and women under their command to protect and defend our country's values, morals, and way of life. That this is the number one priority. The fact that they will give you a 4 year college education, healthcare, etc... is secondary and appreciated. But NOT the reason for going. As such, you should know what you want to do in the military. Then, it's as simple as seeing which academy can help you accomplish your goals. If you really want to be a pilot or work in the aerospace world, the Air Force is the obvious choice. If you are into nuclear energy, oceanography, marine biology, etc... then the navy is probably the right choice. Maybe you are really into serving with homeland security, drug interdiction, border security, safety, etc... Then the coast guard is a good choice. Same with the army if your desire is civil engineering, political science, foreign affairs, mechanical engineering. But, when the first question is; "Which academy has the best school" or "What are the differences in the academies"; I tend to lean towards believing that service to one's country is not the primary reason for wanting to attend the academy.

Basically, I see nothing wrong with applying to all 5 academies. As long as you can say; this is my number 1 academy because this is what I want to do to serve my country. Then, this is number 2, 3, 4, and 5 if I can't get accepted into my number 1. Again, no one has to admit their motives publicly. As long as they know deep down inside why they are wanting to attend a military academy, that is up to them. If they truly want to serve; then they probably already know which academy they want. If they are doing it just for the education, then they will "Put Up" with the military for their 5 years of service, plus their 4 years of college. But, that is why the academy only requires a payback of 5 years. Because they know that while many people who attend really want this and will probably stay in beyond 5 years, there will be those who will leave after 5 years because their priorities were different.

[Just_A_Mom]

Oh my we are condesending on this board today....
Actually ds52262 - your 21 years as an enlisted airman hardly makes you an expert on career options in today's Army or being a cadet at West Point or being an Army Officer.

Mom3boys is exactly correct.

Someone who really does not have a preference needs to spend time 1)visiting the academies, 2)researching available career paths available throught the different branches, and 3) researching available majors at each academy. This advice is correct and prudent. I certainly hope that someone with zero military background or mentors available will not listen to some of the advice given here.

Go back and read the Original post - no where was the question asked which academy is better - however those affiliated with the AFA keep claiming, without reference that it is "superior" to other academies.
Someone who spent 21 enlisted years in the AF wants kids to believe that the Army is all about "blowing things up".
Ignorance abounds.

The fact is - there are kids who want to serve. Far be it for me to analyze their motives as long as they know what is expected. The fact is when serving one's country if you give then you will get.

Being an academy grad doesn't make you walk on water as an officer. For some they may prefer the ROTC route and this doesn't make you automatically any better or any worse an officer. Maybe the AFA promotes arrogance in their cadets, officers and parents - but in the Army and West Point, bragging is not considered good leadership.

The fact is the academies ARE different. They are different in environment and academics. Some kids are drawn to one and not the other. Other kids really hope only to be accepted to one academy and are thankful for the opportunity and go one to live the dream.
Don't pick Air Force because some cadet claims it's the best. Don't pick Army because you are a closet pyro.
Do your research, visit. You will get a college education. This is a great opportunity to study what you want.
Career wise - hardly any 17 year old really knows what they want to do - careers are flexible. There is no guarantee you will get what you want anyway.

[Just_A_Mom]

One thing to consider - since commissioning will be 5 years away - the Air Force is set to do some serious downsizing in the near future. This could have an impact on your career. For those who have their hearts set on flying for 20 years - probably won't happen - you stand a good chance of being bought out.

Army on the other hand is expanding and expected to continue. For years the AF has claimed we would never be in another ground war, but here we are. One benefit - career opportunities. Many young officers in the Army are making Captain in 3 years.

[bruno]

One thing to consider - since commissioning will be 5 years away - the Air Force is set to do some serious downsizing in the near future. This could have an impact on your career. For those who have their hearts set on flying for 20 years - probably won't happen - you stand a good chance of being bought out.

Army on the other hand is expanding and expected to continue. For years the AF has claimed we would never be in another ground war, but here we are. One benefit - career opportunities. Many young officers in the Army are making Captain in 3 years.

I would not give this advice to a youngster looking at choosing a service or a service academy. If you plot a 30 year curve you will see each of the services will have up and down periods. In 1968 the Army had 1.2 million on active duty and promotion was 2-1/2 years to Captain. In 1974 they were Riffing guys. In 1997/98 the Army was giving early retirement to majors and incenting captains to leave with $30-$50,000 buyouts as it built down to a force level of around 450,000 soldiers and quadrennial review called that number into question. In 2008 they are desperately short of Lt Colonels and Majors and are building up to 550,000 force level. In 2018 - unless you have a Chrystal ball- who knows what the force structure will be? If you want to be a soldier- focus on USMA. If you want to fly fast movers- then look at USAFA or USNA- if you want to be a sailor - then look at the 3 sea service academies- but Don't sweat the issues that will be batted back and forth at the National Command Authority level. They will work them selves out and within a 20-30 year career you absolutely will see the pendulum of force planning swing radically.

[Just_A_Mom]

Bruno - you are correct - I was just pointing out that "being in the right place at the right time" is hard to predict. Some who want a 20 year AD career just may not get it - due to circumstances beyond their control.

Regardless of how long your AD career lasts, you will always be an Academy grad with a good education and hopefully a degree in an area which interests you.

[bruno]

Bruno - you are correct - I was just pointing out that "being in the right place at the right time" is hard to predict. Some who want a 20 year AD career just may not get it - due to circumstances beyond their control.

Regardless of how long your AD career lasts, you will always be an Academy grad with a good education and hopefully a degree in an area which interests you.

you are right on target. They are all top notch schools that will prepare you well for a life in and outside of the service.

[BKNorton3]

Whenever I've asked about what the differences between the service academies are, I always get the same answer: their missions. My ALO, former NJROTC instructor, Father (Marine Corps officer), and AFJROTC instructor all have placed their advice in this repect... that your choice of an academy should be based more extensively in knowing the mission of each branch and wanting to be a part of that. Obviously Air Force focuses on flight, Navy on sea power, and Army on land-based combat and defence.

Don't go to an academy for the sole purpose of their engineering and international relations sections. In all respects, the education is certainly comparable at every service academy. Don't think that you're going to get a lesser academic experience at any of them. I'd say go for the mission.

And to actually say what I've been told more often and from more people, Army is usually more inclined to blow things up. The sole reason one of my friends ditched the USMA idea was because the summer seminar was run by those who put a large emphasis on the subject of bombs and testing them out rather than learning more academic criteria.

[mom3boys]

The fact is that on land warfare, a war-fighter must be adept at using the different weapons necessary for that type of combat. Plebe summer included orienteering (thank you boy scouts for teaching this!), night-vision tracking, repelling off a cliff, flying in a blackhawk, and throwing hand grenades. This was only a small part of what my son did for his seven weeks of beast. I've heard from many people that the reason why the USMA education has a higher $$ value is because of the cost of the "toys." So yes, they do blow stuff up...but there is just so much more to it. I'm sure the other academies teach the cadets (or mids) to use the weapons necessary for success in their respective branches as well.

[ds52262]

First off Just a Mom, my chosen Air Force career does not have any commissioned officers. I retired as a Senior Master Sergeant with 21 years of service. This service was performed with assignments directly working the Army, Navy, Marines, and Coast guard. I grew up in Arvada Colorado and got to see USAFA several times while in High School. It was not the direction I wanted to travel at the time. I studied for a semester at UNC in Greeley Colorado before choosing the insufficient enlistment (what I believe you were trying to say) in the Air Force. I do not believe any Service Academy is superior to any other. As stated previously the education you receive at any of them will give you the foundation to do great things. The difference is what comes next. I have dealt with people who were miserable because they didn’t like their job. You don’t want to attend an academy for four years and find out you don’t really like sleeping in a tent, or you have a problem with sea sickness, or flying just isn’t what you thought it would be.

I will put my bona-fides as a lowly enlisted service member with it’s limited knowledge of the military up any day with the you.

[Christcorp]

BK; based on your last post, it sounds like you got some very good advice. It is all about the mission. That is what differentiates the academies. Just-A-mom; I don't know if you were implying that "I" was being condescending. If you were, then it only appears that way because maybe you don't understand. If your screen name is accurate, and you are "Just a Mom", then that would explain not understanding. And as such, there is absolutely nothing I can say to make my opinion clearer. Those who have served, are serving, at the academy, etc... hopefully understand what I was trying to convey.

If you think it was condescending, then you misinterpreted my post. For that, I apologize. In no way do I speak down to anyone willing to serve their country. Whether the motive is a deep felt passion that has been there for years; or a willingness to serve a country that provides opportunities no other in the world can, and through the benefits offered, become a better person in the future. Whatever the motivation, serving one's country is the greatest sacrifice one can make outside of dieing for their family. My only emphasis was that the academies are not like any other place. If the motivation is primarily for the education, then I suggest looking into ROTC or other means of a college education and serving after. Those who come to the academy primarily for the education and the benefits usually are not very happy; they "Struggle" through their time; and they question their choices many more times over.

Again, a person's motive for joining the military and serving their country, is totally their personal decision. My opinion however still stands, that if the primary reason for a person to attend a military academy is for the education, then they are probably not going to be very happy with their decision. Even if they feel they can give back 5 years of service for the education.

[hornetguy]

mom3boys, USAFA is actually more than USMA by about $25,000 per cadet. From least to most expensive per cadet: USNA, USMA, USAFA.

[Stealth_81]

In any discussion there will be some disagreement. I would just like to remind everyone to keep your comments positive and factual. Attacks against another person serve no purpose and blur the purpose of the discussion.
I am not singling anyone out, and this warning is a general one for everyone on this board. Please keep the discussion within the rules of the forum.
Thanks in advance.

Stealth_81
Moderator - USAFA Forum

[mnolan]

First of all, I completely agree that the mission and what you might do upon commissioning is the most important thing to look at. But as the father of a USCGA cadet, and a professor at, with another daughter attending, a large, midwestern, Big 10 university, do keep a couple of things in mind.

1. What do you plan on doing upon commissioning? Are you thinking one tour of duty then out, or making this a lifetime commitment. Not putting a value judgment on either, but it makes a difference as to the education you are looking at. For example, a Naval Engineering degree is probably most useful if you stay in the service for a period of time....but if you are thinking one tour and out, maybe a more "civilian" type degree such as CE or ME might be better.

2. Remember that each SA has a certain "flavor" to their degree. Although I suspect all the mechanical engineering programs are similar, I suspect the AFA and USCGA have some differences even in "identical" majors. What "flavor" suits you best?

3. Are you thinking about a masters degree at some point? If so, the type of BS degree you enroll in and the particular SA might affect your choice. If you are thinking of a master, how do most graduates of the SA you are interested in eventually pursue one?

4. And last but not least, does the overall size of the academy matter to you? Large schools have their advantages, (I know....I teach at one with over 35,000 undergraduates), but they have disadvantages as well. Small schools have their place too. It's not always just the faculty/student ratio that matters, the overall size might matter to you as well. I wouldn't care about what others think, instead concentrate on what you feel works best for you?

So look at all of this, digest the information, and talk to others. I have always found that talking to graduates of different programs can be useful. But they always think their school is/was the best (and so do I :smile:). A
good question to ask these people sometimes is

"which school do you think is SECOND best?"

and then ask them why. You might gain some interesting insight that way.

In any case....Good luck

Mike

[fencersmother]

When we were at PW, I heard a lot of talk among the 4*s about "cross commissioning." As I understand it, cadets may elect to commission in a different branch of the military. In my sons' cases, that would mean as AFA grads, they could commission in the Marines, or Navy, or CG or Army. How common is this practice? I cannot imagine after four years of the intense study and training, and especially after graduating with your class, too many would want to take that option.

Also, I might check out just how many of the cadets who graduate do a "five and fly."

MNolan makes some very good points in his post.

[hornetguy]

More people are turned down to cross-commission than are allowed. Plenty want to do Army or Marines, but now a days most need to have familial reasons (like a grandparent and parent that was army/marines) to cross-commission.

I think that its easier to cross commission from AF to Army or Marines rather than the opposite due to the need to fill Army/Marine junior officer ranks with the retention going down.

[ds52262]

As Hornet said it does not happen with great frequency. The exception is the Army (USAF actually had a program called blue to green) becuase they were afraid they would exceed end strength goals in the Company Grade Officer slots (2nd Lt, 1st Lt, Capt.).

The Marines are much more difficult. Even the number they allow to enter from Annapolis is extremely competitive. More Mids apply then slots available. They definately keep to the "Few the Proud" motto.

Dont take this as a knock on any other branch. The Army just has the greatest need. As for the Five and fly, again I believe Army has the highest attrition by choice. The actual numbers are published and I'm not sure if it is at the DoD or individual services websites. Still most who graduate from an Academy stay unless they are affected by a drawdown.

[BlueSuiter]

Blue to green still exists. They are trying to pull junior officers that are likely to be force shaped out of the AF.

As far as cross-commissioning, I asked my AOC here about that a few days ago ironically. I was prior Army enlisted and both my father and grandfather were Army officers so following that tradition appeals to me, but I don't think I will do it because I love the Air Force. She told me that of all the people that applied under ten got to do it last year, and then only the ones with legacies in the army, everyone else was slotted to space and missles.