Fighter/Bomber vs Tanker/Cargo Track [Archive] - United States of America Service Academy Forums

Christcorp

27th March 2009, 03:56 AM

Alright; if you take the "Little Boy Dream" out of the equation; (Every little boy dreams of being a fighter pilot); here are some of the pros/cons:

FIGHTERS PROS:
1. Fun
2. Prestige
3. Fun
4. Stay at local base a lot more (Great if you have wife/husband/kids)
5. Fun
6. More mission oriented
7. Fun
8. Great for the loner or 2 person.
9. shorter flights usually

CONS:
1. Don't get to travel that much
2. Can actually get boring
3. Lot more desk paper duties

HEAVIES PROS:
1. Lot of traveling (Fighter bud of mine did just normal PCS, war, exercises. C-5 friend of mine has been TDY to MORE THAN 80 countries; including russia, china, chile, India, etc..
2. Change out style of planes easily. Cargo friend has flown C-5 as well as C17 all the way down to a C-21 learjet taking VIP/generals around the world.
3. Very commercial oriented so commercial jobs are much simpler to pick up
4. You don't get shot at as much.
5. Have more contact with others (Crew mates)

CONS:
1. Traveling. Pro/Con up to you
2. Don't see the family as much
3. Pretty simple flying compared to fighter
4. Longer flights. cross country; globally.

Now this is basically fighters and cargo. Refueler/tanker, transport, mission control, etc... type of aircraft have their own set of pros/cons. The thing is; NONE of it is really a PRO OR A CON. Some people like staying at one base for a few years; being home most nights, flying every couple days; flying fast; and only going away for war or exercises. Some prefer the TDY, multi-day missions, seeing the world, etc... Same with all the other pros/cons; each person sees it differently.

Bullet would be a better brain to pick for the fighters. (But I have to admit, the F-15 is my FAVORITE PLANE.) later... mike.....

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 12:04 PM

This is basically an answer which must come from within and is based primarily on physiological attributes. Different personalities and motor skills, among many other variables, lend themselves to different communities. Hopefully, once a student has reached the decision stage, he is both aware of his assets and liabilities and has the maturity to reach the correct decision. Being home at night should have very little, if anything, to do with it.

HEAVIES PROS:
.............

.............

.............

4. You don't get shot at as much.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill from the Boer War:

The greatest exhilaration a man can experience is to be shot at and missed.

Pima

27th March 2009, 12:43 PM

This really is an easy question.

What does he want to fly? I have met few who don't know what they want to fly and many who accept what ac frame they are given.

Back in Bullets day when he graduated there were no Strikes for them, but the top of the class got 111s. He always wanted the Strike and when it became operational he jumped out of a perfectly good airplane to get one.

I am sure if he got a heavy he would have been proud to fly it also, but as you stated it has always been a dream of your DS to fly fighters. If that is the dream, no pro/con list should divert you from obtaining it.

Both fighters and heavies have pros/cons, and to take it one step further in a few months it will be assignment night that is when the question because more intense...F-15, F-16, A-10, etc. That is when you need to ask what do I want to do in the fighter...Air to Air or Air to Ground. Some people love blowing up things, some love the dog fight and some love both.

You can spin yourself in circles wondering what if, but truly it is a gut check. If you turn to him and say 10 seconds which one, count it out loud, by 9 he will say what is in his gut. Tell him to follow that and not to look back. It really is that simple. Over thinking it can actually be detrimental since you might talk yourself into it.

tpg

27th March 2009, 12:49 PM

The greatest exhilaration a man can experience is to be shot at and missed.

I don't know if I would call it exhilaration, but the adrenalin sure was pumping....

The pilots that I always had the most respect for (Coming from a ground pounders point of view) were the transport Helo Pilots. Low and slow. They were nothing but great big targets allot of the time. But those pilots would hold those things right in there and take it…..very dedicated group.

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 01:08 PM

............ in a few months it will be assignment night that is when the question because more intense...F-15, F-16, A-10, etc. That is when you need to ask what do I want to do in the fighter...Air to Air or Air to Ground. Some people love blowing up things, some love the dog fight and some love both.

Again, just another phase in examining ones physiological attributes, being honest with oneself, and, insteading of going with pure wishes, show maturity and do what they are best at.

Pima

27th March 2009, 02:32 PM

Oldgrad, I took the question as they are ranked high enough to have a choice between fighter and heavies. You are taking a different approach.
I took the question that this pilot is high enough in the track to choose, thus they have already surpassed any physiological issues at this point that is required. Pulling 9 Gs in the centrifuge comes later.

Maturity does have a factor in the issue, I just see it differently than you. I see it as don't live life with what ifs, but understand and accept that your path you designed might not be your reality. However, do everything in your control to push the envelope and never ask what if.

TPG I think that is why many AF pilots want the A-10, it sounds very similiar

air_power

27th March 2009, 02:54 PM

What do people think about having prop ground attack fighters again?

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 03:54 PM

Oldgrad, I took the question as they are ranked high enough to have a choice between fighter and heavies. You are taking a different approach.

Not really. Simply because one meets the minimum standards for a particular pipeline does not necessarily mean that particular pipeline is the best personality type match for that individual.

Previous civilian flight time will normally cause one to do better than they would otherwise in flight training. Does previous flight time cause one to have a Type A personality which would bode one well as a fighter pilot? Not at all.

Does the fact that a student who loved, and did well on, cross country training flights but hated aerobatics, yet passed with a high enough grade to select any pipeline he wished, make a better fighter than transport pilot? Not at all.

Is the Type A who enjoys yanking and banking and pushing things to the limit, going to be happy flying transports? Probably not.

Actually, just for example, back in the days before the one size fits all strike fighter, I would say that introverts made better bombers while extroverts make better fighters.

All I am saying is that, no matter the grade, matching platform with personality type will result in the more likelihood of a successful career. There have been books written on this very subject.

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 04:06 PM

What do people think about having prop ground attack fighters again?

I cannot imagine what the overall advantage of a propeller-driven plane would be nowadays. Maybe loiter time and payload to weight ratio but nothing that would justify an entire new platform.

Pima

27th March 2009, 05:12 PM

The air frame should never be matched to the personality as oldgrad states
Simply because one meets the minimum standards for a particular pipeline does not necessarily mean that particular pipeline is the best personality type match for that individual.

Personality has very little to do with how a pilot handles the stick or their competency.

As a spouse I have seen the gamut, but I can guarantee you there are great silent type pilots and crappy TYPE A pilots. The respect that they earn is due to their abilities and not personalities. To state that their personality should be a part of the equation negates the skill of any pilot.

Oldgrad is eluding that skill is not as important as the personality. I beg to differ...when the plane is in trouble as a WSO's wife I couldn't give a rats a** about their personality type, but how they handle the airframe.

Does previous flight time cause one to have a Type A personality which would bode one well as a fighter pilot? Not at all.

Key word TYPE A is a better pilot...wrong! Bullet is nothing like a typical type A personality, however he was DG at LIFT and FTU. His motivation was his love for the aircraft and his brethren. Type A's are all about themselves. He has @2500 FIGHTER HOURS, made every gate, and was an IWSO and has a toilet bowl on top of his wings, so he is living proof you don't need to be an a** to be a great flyer!

Does the fact that a student who loved, and did well on, cross country training flights but hated aerobatics, yet passed with a high enough grade to select any pipeline he wished, make a better fighter than transport pilot? Not at all.

Cross country has nothing to do with yanking and banking. Dog fighting and SA does. You don't take a UPT student and have them perform 4 v 4's or ,red/bue air that is for FTU. The student that graduated higher has proven their ability in demonstration of what was taught, thus, they have a stronger grasp of the demands as a pilot. This is why fighters are typically given to the top 10%, they proved that the overall concept was grasped. Not saying that heavy pilots didn't grasp it, just saying that the top echelon grasped more facets faster and were able to illiustrate their knowledge and a higher performatory level than the rest.

Tracking at this level Figher vs heavy is about the ability to command control of the aircraft...no UPT instructor expects any pilot to do aerobatics. Heck at SJ they still get in trouble for tipping their wings over their home to say hi to the family. These are multi-million dollar aircraft, when they take them up there is a mission..the mission for TWEETS is not acrobatics, but to determine skill level.

Bullet will be on tonight to give his perspection, again mine is from the outside looking in.

G Bless your son and may he get his dream airframe

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 05:47 PM

............. as a WSO's wife................ Key word TYPE A is a better pilot...wrong! Bullet is nothing like a typical type A personality

I was speaking specifically of pilots. I have no clue what makes WSOs 'tick'.

no UPT instructor expects any pilot to do aerobatics. Heck at SJ they still get in trouble for tipping their wings over their home to say hi to the family. These are multi-million dollar aircraft, when they take them up there is a mission..the mission for TWEETS is not acrobatics, but to determine skill level.

Huh?? Page 16, Item 9 of the following link covers the primary training aerobatic syllabus. Also note Item 21, Page 22 for step one in learning 4 v 4s.

http://www.t6driver.com/jsupt/jppt_jsupt_syllabus.pdf

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Your original advice, to go with ones gut feelings, was pretty much right on.

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 06:54 PM

This is why fighters are typically given to the top 10%...............

This statistic continues to pop up on this forum. Could someone please clarify how active duty fighter pilots comprise nearly one-third of the AF totals (3600 out of 12,000), yet only 10% are trained as such. The only way this could be true, in my way of thinking, would be for there to be a lot of old gray haired half-senile AF fighter pilots still out there 'yanking and banking' since their average active career would have to be three times the length of all other AF pilots.

Pima

27th March 2009, 08:22 PM

What makes a WSO tick...the thrill of a fighter. WSO's are primarily assigned to fighters. There is no WSO on any airframe that starts with the letter C, or K in front of the C

As far as old craniums in fighters you betcha why do you think LTC's that go back to Randolph or Columbus are known as GRAY BEARDS.

old gray haired half-senile AF fighter pilots

Uncalled for and un-professional! You owe an apology to very LTC that flew out their career. Guess what Squadron Commanders are those old gray haired half-senile pilots protecting this country. Now a days you have @ 18 yrs in to become a commander or a DO. You don't become one after 5 or 10 yrs of flying the airframe...it is more like 15-18 yrs. AND THEY ALL HAVE GRAY HAIR! None of them are 35, BPZ for Major no longer exists, the fastest track LTC will be 16 yrs of AD,(22 graduate + 16 yrs = 38) thus most are pushing 40+ :eek: That comment was just down right rude to any officer. We all know that 35 yrs is basically your max...do you think that 4 stars spend a lot of time in a jet after they pin on their 1st star. Most never step back in for any operational purpose after they pin on that 1 star. Op. bases do not have 30+ yr AD officers running them, they have 0-6 selects (Fast track, and that puts them at 40-45) Are you insinuatung that 40 yr old pilots are half-senile? If you are I better book my room at assisted living because I am on borrowed time!

Back to the OP...and back on track..don't pick an airframe for its base assignment, pick it for the mission, pick it for your dream, pick it because you want to live your life without a what if. Good luck, Keep us informed of his selection and thank him and your family for serving our country

I am backing out of this fight, Bullet will be home in a couple of hours (doing Friday Roll Call at the hooch) and will give his perspective that the OP asked for

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 08:36 PM

As far as old craniums in fighters you betcha why do you think LTC's that go back to Randolph or Columbus are known as GRAY BEARDS.

Uncalled for and un-professional! You owe an apology to very LTC that flew out their career.

You obviously missed the absurdity of my comment. No apologies necessary. Lets just say that the commitment for heavies is 8 years and half get out at the earliest opportunity and go fly for the airlines. The other half fly out their careers averaging 20 years of aviation service. Half at 8 years and half at 20 years equals an average flying career for the heavies of 14 years. For the tac air community to get by on 1/3 the feed for their pipeline, that must mean the AVERAGE flying career for the fighter guys is 3 times 14 years or 42 years of flying. Since they were probably 24 yrs old when they were winged, this means the AVERAGE retirement age for fighter pilots would be 66 years old. For every '8 and dive' there would have to be a 100 year old fighter pilot out there to compensate for him.

Probably a 66 year old AF fighter pilot, if any were around, would agree with me.

kp2001

27th March 2009, 08:55 PM

Let's remember that this thread is about the pro's and con's of particular Air Force airframes. This is not a thread about debating who (what personality, physiologic traits, etc) fit a particular type better than others.

Let's quit bickering at each other and get back to the original question.

Christcorp

27th March 2009, 09:43 PM

Argggg; C-130 GUNSHIP!!!!

CAN YOU FEEEEEEL THE POWER!!!!!!

Bullet

27th March 2009, 11:25 PM

Wow, I guess I miss out on all the good discussions at work! Dang you Pentagon Network Firewalls!

AFAMOM08,

First off, congrats on your son getting this far! I'm guessing he'a about 2/3's of the way through the T-6 phase since he's approaching the time to fill out his preference sheet. I'd be happy to give you my perspective on the differences between the fighter/bomber and airlift communities. Better yet, PM me and I can pass my contact info so he can call me direct if he wants (gets rid of the "middle man" that way)

Second, I'm sorry this thread got off track. Heck, it's a free internet discussion forum, you get what you pay for. That usually means dealing with opinions over the facts. LOTS, and I mean LOTS, of bad information and speculation being passed here. Done with good intentions perhaps, but just plain WRONG never the less. I will avoid getting into a mud-slinging contest (as KP correctly pointed out) and return instead to answering you basic question, but I might try to clear up some of the mis-conceptions being passed on.

OK, on to your question: “the pros and cons of each track?” and “would I do it all over again?”. CC did a bang-up job with the first response to your question. Allow a guy who spent a 20-year career as a WSO in the fighter world to add my $1.42 (this post will be long, so I had to multiply 71 x $.02 ).

I sat down over beers many a times with my Airlift and Tanker Bros, discussing the plusses and minuses of each other’s jobs. Quite frankly, a LOT of “grass is always greener” from both sides of the table. The heavy guys get jealous of the amount of “glory and prestige” the fighter (and bomber) guys seem to get, the amount of time we stay home compared to them, and the cool “missions” the fighter community participates in daily, both at home training and deployed. The folks on my side of the table were jealous that they got away form home station so much more than us, that EVERY mission of theirs was a “real-world” mission, with a real world focus, and without the “home station” nit-noid stuff we had to put up with. But you know what, we all realized that each of us had an important part to play in today’s battles, and without each other, neither could succeed. Then we would just sigh and drink more beer together, each side thinking to itself, “lucky dogs”….

Despite what has been said on here about flying skills, physiological abilities, and maturity levels at UPT, what it really boils down to are cultural differences between the two communities, and which one your son feels he would want to be of. His instructors at UPT have been looking at him and evaluating him from day one, they know what it takes for each community, both in aptitude and attitude, and will provide their guidance to him as well. They will also take into account his preferences, and let him know early on if they feel he is a right fit for his top choices.

But ultimately, it is your SON’s choice. You say he has always wanted to fly fighters. Why change that dream now? If he ranks high enough in his UPT class, he will have that chance to strive for that dream even farther. Where the maturity part comes in is if he doesn’t get that dream, either through performance on his part or lack of available airframe slots on the AF’s part. How he deals with that situation will demonstrate his maturity level. But let’s not dwell on that scenario. I say, if he always wanted fighters, and he has the shot, then go for his dream, and what I (or anyone else) says about the matter about “lifestyle” or “mission focus” or “days deployed” really shouldn’t matter a hill of beans.

As to your second question, I’ll keep it short. Would I do it again? Heck yes, twice over, in a heart beat! And for more reasons than I could list in a forum without crashing the thread.

In the end, the offer stands. PM me and I’ll pass my contact info. I’d be happy to talk to him some night or some weekend and pass my thoughts. I promise to be brutally honest about all the good and the bad from both sides. But don’t be surprised when he calls you afterwards and says “I want to fly Strike Eagles! They kick butt!” :thumb:

oldgrad

27th March 2009, 11:32 PM

Despite what has been said on here about flying skills, physiological abilities, and maturity levels at UPT, what it really boils down to are cultural differences between the two communities, and which one your son feels he would want to be of.

But ultimately, it is your SON’s choice.

Thanks. My point exactly. Just helping ensure that it is an informed decision for a community that he "feels he would want to be a part of" and succeed in.

I too apologize for perhaps somehow being a part of those who got off track.

Bullet

27th March 2009, 11:51 PM

This statistic continues to pop up on this forum. Could someone please clarify how active duty fighter pilots comprise nearly one-third of the AF totals (3600 out of 12,000), yet only 10% are trained as such.

Easy answer. Your numbers a WAY off. According to the March 23rd data from the AF's Manpower Center, their are a little over 14.1 thousand pilots on active duty right now, 2600 of which are rated in fighters. Comes out to about 18% of the active duty pilot strength.

My IMPRESSION (can't find the solid numbers on AFMPC's web-site) from my experience is that you also see a larger number of heavy guys leave as soon as their commitments are up compared to the fighter community. Opportunities to fly in the Guard or Reserve or greater in heavies than in fighters. Thus you get a slight bump in the total percentage for fighter qualified pilots as the ranks get higher.

As to UPT, typical class size is 35 - 40 students. Lots of factors are in play as to how many fighters will drop for each class. Some classes get 3 or 4 slots, some get 6 or 8. Averages out to around 10 -15%. Usually. With assignments being handed out based on class rank, and with the demand for a fighter assignment typically being much higher than for a heavy, it means you need to be pretty high up in your class rank to get a fighter out of UPT. Usually in the top 10% to "almost" garauntee it (one of the top 3 or 4 folks in your class). Get ranked number 5, and you're chances start going down rahter fast. Life's tough like that....

oldgrad

28th March 2009, 01:18 AM

Easy answer. Your numbers a WAY off. According to the March 23rd data from the AF's Manpower Center, their are a little over 14.1 thousand pilots on active duty right now, 2600 of which are rated in fighters. Comes out to about 18% of the active duty pilot strength.

Seems like a huge change in just over two years since this article was written indicating a primarily fighter pilot shortage and the ratio still at 30%. I don't remember any major realignments (but I am gray haired and half senile):

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2006/July%202006/0706shortage.aspx

What would account for the decrease of 1700 fighter pilots during the same period when at the beginnning of the period AF Magazine was describing a shortage?

Could you give a link to your 2600 numbers? Or maybe give a definition of 'rated'?

Or maybe Air Force Magazine is simply publishing bad gouge?

13ryan13

28th March 2009, 02:34 AM

I, a mere appointee to the AFA, hate to intrude on this heated debate, but I figure this would be the perfect place to interject a question. In a best-case scenario in my head, I will be faced with a choice of which airplane I'd like to fly in the Air Force. I have it narrowed down to the B-2, F-22, F-35, or C-17. They all have their perks, as stated many different times in this thread, but can anybody give me a clear cut answer and reason for which plane I should choose, should that opportunity arise?

AFAMOM08

28th March 2009, 03:55 AM

Thank you all for your responses. I forwarded the link to my son--I spoke to him this afternoon and he said he was looking forward to reading all of the comments when he returns from a well earned weekend pass. :smile:

Christcorp

28th March 2009, 04:18 AM

oldgrad

28th March 2009, 01:03 PM

LOTS, and I mean LOTS, of bad information and speculation being passed here. Done with good intentions perhaps, but just plain WRONG never the less.

Very interesting article concerning the personality types for both successful and unsuccessful aviators with an impressive list of references.

http://medind.nic.in/iab/t05/i1/iabt05i1p54.pdf

It is evident that the personality of the
aviator plays an important role especially in certain
situations like the pilot selection process,
interpersonal ability of relevance to CRM and
gender differences in aviators. Personality may
be one of a multitude of factors, which contribute
to aircraft incidents or accidents. However it is
difficult to comment on which personality profile
is more suitable for aviation as measured by
select-in tests. There are certainly some
incompatible traits, such as the dependent and
avoidant personality traits, which are not
aeronautically adaptable. These assume
importance in pilots who may choose flying for
the wrong reasons and in those who exhibit the
failing aviator syndrome. Such aircrew should be
recognised in advance and taken out of risky flying
if required, as they are likely to pose a threat to
flight safety. In conclusion, personality is a
pertinent issue as and when related to flying
performance.

It is hard to believe that someone who has flown for a living would both not recognize but also attempt to discredit this very critical issue.

I continue to feel that this is a very important issue which definitely bears consideration especially when one is considering the various available platforms. In certain communities, it is easier to compensate for less than desirable mindsets than others.

I think we have a budding Navy Flight Surgeon on this board whose input might certainly be valid:

US Navy uses the concept of
‘Aeronautical Adaptability’ (AA) for assessing the
psychological fitness of aviation personnel. In early
1920’s and 30’s the assessment of AA was simply
what the flight surgeon felt about the candidates
personality.

Bullet

28th March 2009, 01:30 PM

Oldgrad,

Everyone here has been asked by the moderators, politely, to keep this forum on track and focused on the original question of differences between the fighter/bomber communities and the heavy communities. Yet you seem to continue to want to pull the thread away from it's original intent on some crusade to prove your worthiness and validity. I refuse to participate in that discussion. Suffice it to say that you have your opinion about what makes a good fighter pilot or someone better suited to the heavy community. Yes, the factors you mention are a part of the overall picture, but only a part. I will leave the judgement on the WHOLE story of where a student pilot would fit best to the instructors at UPT whose job it has been for over 70 years to make these calls, based mostly on ability, aptitude, and attitude.

The OP wanted a list of pros and cons for each career field. CC answered that nicely, and some here can add more. I recommend we leave it at that level...

Bombtrack

28th March 2009, 01:43 PM

Bullet,

Reading your post reminded me that getting into the Academy is no fun and games. I will try to keep this in mind throughout my career to make sure that I end up belonging in that top 10% of the class. It will be tough, but worth it none the less. I also think the F-15E is an awesome plane. I pretty much worship it, and just being chosen to be on the path of getting to compete with others for a minimal shot at flying one is too great.

Thank you for your insight.

Bt

Bullet

28th March 2009, 01:46 PM

can anybody give me a clear cut answer and reason for which plane I should choose, should that opportunity arise?

Ryan, IMO the primary reason you would want to select a particular platform would be because you feel you would most enjoy the MISSION that particular airframe does. Want to focus on air-to-air dominace? Then your best bet would be an F-22 or an F-15C. Want to go for a strike mission (attacking enemy targets on the ground, either in a tactical role against fixed targets, or in a Close Air Support role against enemy troops)? Then the F-16, A-10, F-15E or F-35 would be good choices. Want to go on LONG RANGE strike missions, deep into enemy territory? Look at the B-2, B-1, or B-52. Want to airdrop paratroops or heavy equipment, or provide invaluable strategic lift capability to the combat forces? Then C-130s or C-17s are the planes of choice.

You can easily see that ALL of these platforms have a key role in the AF and the defense of America. And there are so many more platforms in other roles that we haven't even scratched.

I hope you have the opportunity when it comes time to pin on your wings that you will be in that enviable position to select from among all your choices. I think your timing may be a little early for the F-35, which doesn't become operational in the AF until 2013, and most likely will have experienced pilots transfer from other platforms like the F-16, A-10 and F-15E for the first few years as their "initial cadre". Perhaps they'll open the pipeline to brand new pilots fresh out of UPT several years later as the experienced guys get to learn the new system and develop the tactics required to succeed in its primary role. In the F-22's case, they just started opening up slots for brand new Lts fresh out of UPT, so you may get a shot there (and CC was correct, most of the first pilots were transfers from the F-15C because of their background with air-to-air as the primary mission).

You can always start with one of the legacy fighters and transfer over after a tour or two. It happened to me.

oldgrad

28th March 2009, 03:02 PM

The OP wanted a list of pros and cons for each career field.

Yep, and the second part of her request:

What should he take into consideration?

As you so accurately stated, personality traits are a part. No crusade, no agenda, just the facts. Just helping the OP's son to examine the alternatives to the best of his ability. For one to examine why he 'enjoys' something or has a 'gut feeling' is a critical consideration in the military flying business.

Twice in my flying career, I had to personally choose between 'fighter/bombers' and another platform. Once I chose 'yes' and once I chose 'no'. I have flown jets. I have flown transports. I have flown helicopters. My observations are valid. I have no need to prove them to anyone.

Bullet

28th March 2009, 05:22 PM

Gnashing my teeth as I post this because I promised not to get dragged down into this, but....

Oldgrad, re-reading the entire thread, I feel we are in agreement that matching one's personality to the type of airframe should be a consideration, and we are now just talking over each other at this point.

I get the impression you believe personality traits are of much higher importance than the level I put it on, but we both believe it should be taken into consideration. I have known ALL personalities in the fighter community, form the introvert to the extrovert and everywhere in between. Some personality traits ARE shared to an extent (the desire to always win at everything is one that quickly comes to mind), but flying squadron personnel come in all shapes and sizes. To say one-size fits all just doesn't cut it for me.

I was also confused by your use of the term "physiological" in the early parts of this thread. The AF flying community defines the "Physiological" aspects to be how one's body handles the stresses of flying, such as pressure differences due to altitude and the impacts of g-forces. In fact, our required Physiological training deals specifically with those issues. Now, "psychological" issues such as temperment, personality, and attitude are completely different, and are usually addressed during Cockpit Resource Management training. The mix up of these terms and the level of importance they were given towards making a decision that would impact a life-long dream threw me for a loop. Maybe that is what drove the discussion off track for me.

From discussions I've had with former UPT instructors (to include squadron commanders of these units), the basic equation prior to an assignment night comes down to this: Step 1: Where does the student want to go? Step 2: Does the student have the skill-set required? Step 3: Does the AF have an available slot for him/her in that platform? A CONSIDERATION they might discuss is: Will he be a good fit in his future squadron? The first three steps are the key. The additional considerations? Well, they ARE considered, but it has to be a REAL issue to be a gamebreaker (i.e. this kid is such a anti-social nit-wit that my buds back in the XXX community will KILL us for sending him there). Again, rarely an issue, but it does happen.

I'll stand by my response to ryan above, which fits nicely into this overall discussion: the OP's son needs to look at the mission each type of aircraft performs and decide for himself if that is where he would like to be. Given a choice, personality plays a part in that, as do lifestyle, culture, and attitudes of the community you are considering (which CC listed in his pros and cons list). But most importantly, if you have the opportunity to choose (i.e. the instructors have evaluated you and rank you high enough in your class to be given the opportunity) the MISSION you want to be a part of should be your number one factor. I guess you can say that is part of personality; I'll give you that. BUt ultimately, would you give up a life long dream of flying fighters becuase the community has a "fraternity boy" reputation? I hope the OP's son can see past that if this is an issue for him, and go for his dream.

BTW, we used to have another person regularly posting on here with a nearly identical background in the military, exactly the same writing style, and a similar "stated mission" (believing he was here to postulate and expound on what he beleived to be the only answers to multi-layered questions). Unfortunately, his tendency to antagonize most of the other posters here with a condescending, "holier-than-thou" attitude of being the ultimate and only authority on this forum, and the subsequent flame wars he would generate on almost every thread he posted on, lead to his permanent banning from this site. I appreciate your words, and hope we can keep this on the friendly side. I realize that my opinion on many matters may be slightly off in some regards, or more likely different than others. I'm also glad you are here to replace him, as I need someone to keep me in check sometimes...

Bottom Line: I think we are in agreement in about 95% of the Big Picture here, and I don't want the other 5% to drag this thread off any further...

bruno

28th March 2009, 07:48 PM

Bullet: excellent post. I am certain that both you and OldGrad are mostly in agreement and where you are not is a matter of opinion on a subject where there are no absolute answers.
So my request to all posters would be to get this thread back on track and talk about the different aspects of being a pilot of these different types of airframes. Surely the OP was asking more about things that would include:the relative degree of difficulty in getting selected for a type; the differing career prospects between types, the amount of travel, PCS moves, opportunity for command and flying time etc... all of which are questions that those of you can asnwer based on your experiences?

13ryan13

28th March 2009, 09:40 PM

Ryan; keep in mind, that "Some" aircraft are a progression. Not sure if it is still the case, but I believe that the few F-22 pilots came from the existing F-15 pool. (Yo Bullet, help me out bud, you retired after me). Same with the F-35. Initially, it will probably come from the F-16 pool. (Depending on the model). As time goes on, this progression will change. So, by the time you've graduated from the academy and gotten through the point of UPT to start choosing, you might be able to go straight to a 22 or 35. But, worst case on the best case (Sort of like "Military Intelligence"); I would say to link your choices into categories first, then aircraft second. And because you went to a combination of Fighters, Bombers, and transport; you've sort of made it very difficult. You have picked obviously the best of all 3 categories. I would simply add a 2nd aircraft to each category and then wait till you get closer to finishing the academy and getting a UPT slot before worrying which one.

But like I said; for the F-22, add the F-15. For the F-35, add the F-16. For the C-17, add the C-5. And for the B-2, add the B1. Do your best at the academy; get your UPT slot; and graduate in the top 10% of UPT and pick what you want. best of luck to you. mike.....

Ryan, IMO the primary reason you would want to select a particular platform would be because you feel you would most enjoy the MISSION that particular airframe does. Want to focus on air-to-air dominace? Then your best bet would be an F-22 or an F-15C. Want to go for a strike mission (attacking enemy targets on the ground, either in a tactical role against fixed targets, or in a Close Air Support role against enemy troops)? Then the F-16, A-10, F-15E or F-35 would be good choices. Want to go on LONG RANGE strike missions, deep into enemy territory? Look at the B-2, B-1, or B-52. Want to airdrop paratroops or heavy equipment, or provide invaluable strategic lift capability to the combat forces? Then C-130s or C-17s are the planes of choice.

You can easily see that ALL of these platforms have a key role in the AF and the defense of America. And there are so many more platforms in other roles that we haven't even scratched.

I hope you have the opportunity when it comes time to pin on your wings that you will be in that enviable position to select from among all your choices. I think your timing may be a little early for the F-35, which doesn't become operational in the AF until 2013, and most likely will have experienced pilots transfer from other platforms like the F-16, A-10 and F-15E for the first few years as their "initial cadre". Perhaps they'll open the pipeline to brand new pilots fresh out of UPT several years later as the experienced guys get to learn the new system and develop the tactics required to succeed in its primary role. In the F-22's case, they just started opening up slots for brand new Lts fresh out of UPT, so you may get a shot there (and CC was correct, most of the first pilots were transfers from the F-15C because of their background with air-to-air as the primary mission).

You can always start with one of the legacy fighters and transfer over after a tour or two. It happened to me.

Weeding through the posts and discovering these two thoughtful replies to my question, I realized that I shouldn't choose the airplane, I should choose the mission types? I have come to terms with the fact that the F-35 is out of my immediate reach, and have it pretty well narrowed down to the F-22 (or F-15, which is still a great choice), the B-2 (or B-1), and the C-17 (or C-5). Which translates according to Christcorp and Bullet into deciding between maintaining air superiority - which would be a very honorable position to hold in the greatest Air Force in the world, bringing in the bombs and having the privalege of flying some pretty big, cool, and expensive planes, or delivering cargo and seeing the entire world as well as logging many hours in a jet. I guess that part, the decision between the nature of the missions, is going to be the hardest to decide from. But cargo is quickly fading from my list....... (too slow and no action)

But needless to say, thanks Christcorp and Bullet for continuing to give well thought advice to a mere high-schooler like myself. :smile:

Christcorp

28th March 2009, 09:48 PM

Ryan; you've applied to the Air Force Academy. There is NOTHING MERE about you. Best of luck. Aim High. later... mike.....

Bullet

28th March 2009, 10:02 PM

Bruno, thanks for some great suggestions towards getting this thread back on track. Allow me to spend a few paragraphs discussing your topics. Granted, this will be biased towards my experiences in the fighter communities; I ask for others on here with different perspectives and backgrounds to provide a sanity check and expound on areas I miss...

1) The MISSION. Again, IMO the number #1 reason any future flyer should be considering as they make their "dream sheets". For the fighter community, it can be summed-up in some simple words, hammered into me at the beginning of my career by some of the older folks in my first squadron: "we kill people and break things." The new saying popular in the Pentagon and in the HQs around the world is: "war-heads on fore-heads." Pretty blunt, pretty dramatic in their tone, but that is the true reason the US taxpayer spends all those big dollars to put the world's best air force in the air.

When the balloon goes up, you will be called upon to face the enemy, go right into his homeland, and rain death and destruction on his doorstep, all in the name of US policy. This is what you train for, to succeed in that mission. The enemy usually won't just sit back and let you do that to them; that's where the dangerous aspect of our job comes from. Your missions back home will be focused on learning and practicing how to do this better, how to survive the threats, and how to get that target struck. The air-to-air guys focus on how to make sure the strike guys can get through the enemies' own air-to-air screens and to their targets, or how to protect our OWN assets from meeting the same fates as our strike guys are trying to do to the enemy.

Now, the TACTICAL application of airpower is not the domain of our fighters alone. There are LOTS of heavy bombers and gunships (like the AC-130) that also participate in allowing our enemies to die for thier country / fanatical leaders. They typically have similar missions, but longer durations. We also have STRATEGIC assets like the B-2, who are in existence for the even worse scenarios.

Plus, there are quite a few other platforms out there that provide critical support to the mission, such as tankers, Command and Control birds, Combat Search and Rescue platforms, and Recconassaince birds (which have been gaining huge support recently due to the fantastic roles they have played in our current wars). Will they be "downtown" like our stike fighters and bombers? Most likely not. But can our fighters and bombers get there without them? Again, most likely not.

As to our airlift community, they also have a vital mission; the strategic and tactical lift of material and personnel throughout the word and particular theaters. Delivering the beans and bullets required to keep America's forces able to fight. Not as glamorous as the guys who get their gun camera footage on CNN, but just as important. However, they also perform TACTICAL delivery of forces, such as para-drops of troops and supplies in theater. As a guy who once served with the 82nd Airborne, I can tell you it is an AWESOME sight to see literally DOZENS of C-130s and C-17s flying overhead, parachutes popping into the air behind them.

The HOMEFRONT:

One of the bigger differences in the two communities outside of the mission. Fighters and tactical aircraft spend most of their time TRAINING for thier jobs (I mean, we are not engaging the enemy everyday, and blowing things up all over the country would just simply send the wrong message to the American public :smile:). So, most of your flying time is in training, practicing the tactics and procedures you would need in combat. In fact, when I first got in, America hadn't been in heavy combat in over a decade, and wouldn't be in one again for another 5 years. I knew lots of guys with hundreds if not thousands of hours in an airframe, and not one hour of combat time. It's like the kid who goes to basketball practice everyday, takes thousands of free throws after practice, but his team never gets to play against anyone.

Of course, in today's air force, things are a little different. With two wars going on, EVERYONE will get downrange every once in a while. In fact, the AF hasn't stopped flying combat sorties over Iraq since Desert Storm! My own experience with Mr. Sadam not-so-kindly asking me to leave his airspace (via a Surface to Air Missile) happened in 1999, when most of America wasn't even aware that we had military members actively engaged against him. But I digress. Today, most of our tactical forces fall in the Air Expeditionary Forces (AEF) cycle, which is 4 months downrange, 18 months back home, then another 4 months downrange. Rinse, repeat. With most of the tactical flyers staying with one unit for 2 1/2 - 3 years, this means they will most likely get to bad-guy land usually twice per tour.

This doesn't count the times away from home for temporary duty as part of your training. Exercises like Red Flag and Cope Thunder also take you away from home for a couple of weeks at a time, usually two or three times in the 18-month "home" period.

The same things go for our tactical heavy and support forces, but since there aren't as many of them, they end up deploying for the "real mission" more often, and are away from home more frequently. Our Strategic assets like the B-2 or the B-52 aren't deployed in the current conflict, but still do quite a bit of temporary deployments for training (however, they were HEAVILY involved in the initial, heavy combat ops of the two current wars).

Now, for our airlift guys, almost 90% of THIER flying is on their actual mission. A few training sorties typically here and there (especially the tactical air-drop types), but they get to walk out of the door everyday and say, "today's sortie, I'm actually doing something important". They get to know that if they do't fly that day, someone, somewhere will go without. I miss a sortie for a broken jet, oh well, less learning for me that day. They miss a sortie, PFC Johnny Grunt may not eat that night! A real motivator.

Typically, one third of the airlift squadron is off some WHERE, doing some THING. They are also part of the AEF cycles, but usually a third of the jets will go "downrange", performing duties in that area for that AEF. The next cyle, the next third goes, and so on.

Not sure if the forum tools will allow me to publish a "novel" in one shot. So, I'm going to break this up into a second post. Next up: the community, and a typical career...

Bullet

28th March 2009, 11:02 PM

Second post, as promised:

The COMMUNITY:

What can I say? We 'uns fighter guys are the knuckle dragging Fraternity boys every Hollywood movie portrays us as. And the airlift guys? Well, we're just happy they don't accidently turn off the auto-pilot when they drop their spoons for their box lunchs....

All kidding aside (and trust me, there is some FRIENDLY kidding between the two communites, but more importantly, lots of comraderie and respect). Here's is how I see it.

The typical "fighter (or bomber) -pilot attitude? Agressive, and always wants to win. At EVERYTHING. You will never meet a bunch of people more hung-up on competition. We are always judging ourselves against the other folks in the squadron, and everyone wants to be Number one. We compete at EVERYTHING, from who has the best car, to who has the prettiest wife (I won that one), to who has the best bombs on the range that day. We need that competitive spirit because we know without it, it makes our chances of survival in combat just that much less.

But we also took the flying VERY seriously. We would analyze 15 seconds of gun camera film for an hour in the mission debriefs, trying to detemine why the bandit lived, why our wingman didn't, or why we didn't hit the target on the first pass. We literally have vaults full of manuals and book on the procedures we need to know cold when we fly, and we expect our new guys to be studying them constantly when they aren't on the schedule. Even us old heads would have to spend time keeping up with the reading. A typical fighter pilot has at least a Master's level of knowledge on the tactics and procedures. We also send our best and brightest to the Weapons School, 6 months of the most intensive flight training in the world, where they will learn to become the "instructors for our instructors". The will be getting the Doctorate level of learning, and they are the ones who set the standard throughout the AF and create the latest tactcs.

Those outside of the fighter community made fun of the way we seemed so "anally retentive" about the mission and debriefs. But IMO, they just didn't understand why we took it sooooo seriously.

ON the social side,it was very much like a Fraternity in atmosphere. Because we deployed as a unit, stayed at home as a unit, and went everywhere AS A UNIT, we all felt like we were part of a brotherhood. We played the silly games, had the wierd traditions, hung out in the squadron bar together, and let loose together (often to the amusement of our airlift brothers and other outsiders). Even our wives were expected to hang out together (but that has started to change). Silly? Yes, but these folk became my second family, and I would gladly give my life for them in battle...

On the airlift side, I was always under the impression that they were much more laid back in attitude than the fighter community. I am probably wrong, but again this was just my impression. For one, thier mission debriefs did not go into as much detail as ours. They just seemed to me to carry themselves in a much more relaxed attitude. Professional flyers still, just not so anal about it as the guys I hung with...

On the social side-- well, since a good portion of their squadron mates would constantly be gone on a daily basis, they just didn't seem to me to have as close a knit squadron back home. Since they all weren't around at the same time, they didn't have that luxury to bond as a unit like we did. However, get them downrange or the crews that were deployed together did have a good sense of comraderie.

The TYPICAL CAREER:

Fighter / bomber guy: show up at your first ops squadron. Learn the jet and the tactics off the bat as a wingman. After about 18 months to 2 years, upgrade to 2-ship flight lead (you and a wingman, together in battle, you leading him (or her) to victory). Hopefully get enough experience before you PCS in a year or less to become a 4-ship flgiht lead (the backbone of our combat ops). PCS, hopefully to another Ops flying assignment. Get the reputation of being a great 4-ship flight lead and upgrade to Instructor within a year. Become a great instructor and apply for Weapons School (for the F-15E, only 8 guys went to every six month class, so it was COMPETITIVE!). Spend another year or two afterwards as the head instructor and lead of your squadron's wepaons shop. PCS again, either to school or become an IP for the transition course (you teach new guys how to fly the plane). PCS again, take a staff job or other flying type of job. PCS again, and go back to compete for a squadron leadership position (first the Director of Ops (the squadron's #2), then squadron command).

There, that takes you all the way up to becoming ready to make full bird Colonel. Easy to do? Heck no! Chances of getting it? All depends on how good you really are, and how much the guys above you like you. Are there other paths to Colonel, outside of flying? Certainly.

Progession for the heavy guys? Well, you start out in the co-pilot's right seat for most platforms. Gain a bunch of experience (heavy guys usually have thousands of more flight hours than fighters, only because of sortie duration), and transition to the "Pilot-in-Command" left seat. PCS time frames remain the same.

However, I'm also under the impression that a lot more of the heavy guys transition to the Reserves and Guard once their Active commitments are up. More opportunities to do so, and I guess they like the idea of finally being able to stay home more often (don't deploy as much).

As to "after the military"? Well, despite the thought that the airlines would prefer to hire the heavy guys because of their hours in similar birds, I have it on reliable sources (freinds of mine involved in the airline pilot hiring process), that they prefer fighter guys. Why? Well, usually the fighter guys graduated UPT higher, so the impression is they are better pilots. Not always the case, I know, but it is an impression that needs to be addressed when you go looking for that job at SouthWest. Also, the airlines LIKE the attitude towards flying the fighter guys have, again the impression is that the fighter guys take it more seriously. (Again, take it up with the airlines if you don't like their bias). Lastly, it just worked out that most of the guys the airlines use to interview prospective pilots were ex-fighter guys. Keeping it in the family, so to speak. (Again, take it up with United, not me).

Wow! I think I'm developing carpal tunnel! I just want to leave you with this thought. I haven't even scratched the surface is comparing the two communities. So much to talk about, not enough space on the internet. You want more info, something specific perhaps? Go ahead, ask away....

And I'm spent. :thumb:

oldgrad

29th March 2009, 11:40 AM

The typical "fighter (or bomber) -pilot attitude? Agressive, and always wants to win. At EVERYTHING. You will never meet a bunch of people more hung-up on competition. We are always judging ourselves against the other folks in the squadron, and everyone wants to be Number one. We compete at EVERYTHING, from who has the best car, to who has the prettiest wife (I won that one), to who has the best bombs on the range that day. We need that competitive spirit because we know without it, it makes our chances of survival in combat just that much less.

But we also took the flying VERY seriously. We would analyze 15 seconds of gun camera film for an hour in the mission debriefs

Those outside of the fighter community made fun of the way we seemed so "anally retentive" about the mission and debriefs. But IMO, they just didn't understand why we took it sooooo seriously.

ON the social side,it was very much like a Fraternity in atmosphere. Because we deployed as a unit, stayed at home as a unit, and went everywhere AS A UNIT, we all felt like we were part of a brotherhood.

On the airlift side, I was always under the impression that they were much more laid back in attitude than the fighter community

They just seemed to me to carry themselves in a much more relaxed attitude. Professional flyers still, just not so anal about it as the guys I hung with...

On the social side-- well, since a good portion of their squadron mates would constantly be gone on a daily basis, they just didn't seem to me to have as close a knit squadron back home.

Bottom Line: I think we are in agreement in about 95% of the Big Picture here, and I don't want the other 5% to drag this thread off any further...

Thanks. Very pertinent. Very perceptive. After more blind curves than a West Virginia driveway, I think we are in 100% agreement with maybe the exclusion of the following statement:

I get the impression you believe personality traits are of much higher importance than the level I put it on, but we both believe it should be taken into consideration....

I don’t know how you could arrive at that conclusion based on my original statement (bold face added) but I will forgive your misconception:

. Different personalities and motor skills, among many other variables, lend themselves to different communities.

Perhaps a knee jerk initial disagreement causing one to have to repeatedly defend a single portion of one’s position might cause a casual observer to think too much emphasis is being placed on that part.

You remember an old poster who was “here with a condescending, "holier-than-thou" attitude”. I remember a mom, wife of a service academy grad, with two children, one at AFA and one at USNA, whose very perceptive posts were discounted by those who had never “been there and done that” and was treated very similarly to me at the initial part of this thread. Perhaps the “holier than thou” accusation should be spread around a little more. As an aside, have you ever noticed the truth in the old adage that the faults of others that most bother someone are those faults that they themselves possess.

Back on topic. Probably a third of the first tour pilots in some communities become non-competitive. Some self-deselect because they don’t like to be away from home. Some do not have the motor skills to succeed. Some don’t fit with either the mission or their fellow fliers. All can contribute. On this forum, we cannot do anything about motor skills or the reality of being away from home. One can think they like to travel and go places but until they actually experience it, they don’t really know. However, we would be remiss if we did not make people aware of the attitudes (read personality traits) of those in each community to assist them in making the proper decision. And yes, some who don’t fit, succeed. But are they as happy as perhaps they would be in another community? For those who are there doing it, it may seem insignificant to have 15 seconds of ones life analyzed for an hour, but there are many perfectly good stick and rudder pilots out there who could not handle it. This is where I disagree with Christcorp, a loner would probably be more happy as a transport pilot.

Bullet, additionally, I have provided links to support myself throughout this thread. It is one thing to say one should be in the top 10% of their primary class to GUARANTEE that they get jets but entirely misleading to say that only the top 10% WILL get jets. That comment may actually drive a reader to the Navy, even though he doesn't think he will like shipboard life, just because he thinks his chance of jets is greater. I provided a responsible link which stated that 2 yrs ago, 30% of AF pilots were in the fighter community. Your rebuttal doesn't add up. Could you please verify and provide links? We owe it to the youngsters who read these threads.

Pima

29th March 2009, 12:44 PM

Curiosity question.
Probably a third of the first tour pilots in some communities become non-competitive. Some self-deselect because they don’t like to be away from home. Some do not have the motor skills to succeed. Some don’t fit with either the mission or their fellow fliers.

I know you are saying some communities, but don't you think 1/3 is a high number? If a particular community is losing that many pilots, then there is a true issue within the community. This maybe true from the Navy, but I don't recall seeing 1/3 of the strike or the 111 guys leave unless it was time to fly a desk or medical dq. Bullet retired only a few months ago, and at his slide show he had a pic of his TX class. There were 16 guys, the joke was only 2 other people were left in the AF. Out of that class. Only 1 had left the Strike to go back to the A-10, and that was because he was selected for WING KING. All of the others never flew another aircraft, nor left the jet unless MPC said to, and that was 15 yrs of his 20, thus the majority of Bullet's career.

I know the numbers are higher when air frames get boneyarded and thus flyers will switch out, but Xtraining 1/3 or freely allowing them to walk after 3 yrs is not cost beneficial. Plus, to take a desk after you 1st tour means no gates have been met and you can kiss that flight pay goodbye. At one point in Bullets career we were concerned that he might have misssed his last gate by a month or two,(all because of PME in residence and Pentagon assignment) thus we would not have gotten flight pay after 22 yrs. When it tops out at 845 bucks a month that is a lot to walk away from.

I just can't see the AFMPC saying yep, you don't like the jet or the people in your squadron, so here's a desk. Never mind the fact that we spent millions of dollars training you...that's okay, we want you to be happy. Never knew of a guy who couldn't cut it being xtrained either...typically if they can't cut it they are FEB way before the EOT for your 1st operational duty. AF is funny that way, they don't like sending guys into a squadron that might cause a mishap. I remember in 89 when Bullet was at LIFT and there was a newspaper article in the local paper they called the guys the 6 milliondollar man, because that is how much it cost to train them. That is 20 yrs ago, I can't imagine the cost being less than 10 million now. You do not re-cooup that cost in one tour. The military isn't here to be you pal, its job is to guarantee the mission and C status of every airframe.

I can recall guys in Bullets squadrons, that were not liked and had no business being in the Strike, but there they were because MPC told them to you are going here to this base, this squadron no later than this date. The guys callsigns should tell you how proficient they were TUMOR and ZERO.
They could volunteer to go somewhere else like Korea freely for a remote, but they would than come back 1 yr later into the cockpit. Be honest who volunteers to go to Camp Red Cloud?

Maybe the Navy is different and it is easier to walk away from being a flier, or maybe more guys chose to, but every guy that Bullet went to UNT, FTU and XTU never walked away or asked to get out of the fighter comunity. One was asked to leave via FEB, but when you add in @30 guys total (16 in FTU and 16 different guys in XTU) that real life statistic illustrates for at least the111 and the 15E they stay. ANother compliment to the Strike is those WSOs that leave go to become pilots (typically 1 per yr per base will get the chance or 1 out of 200+) it is very common to see them 9 months later in the FTU, they chose to come back to the Strike. I know of only one that took the 16, but than again no strikes were offered in his class, so who knows maybe he would have selected the Strike too! He retired out of the 16.

oldgrad

29th March 2009, 12:49 PM

Curiosity question. Don't you think 1/3 is a high number? This maybe true from the Navy

Yes, I was specifically speaking of Navy fighter squadrons which is why I used the word "some" and also included my made up word,'self de-select'. However, think about the ratios of first to second to third tour pilots in any squadron. Those who don't come back for subsequent tours go somewhere, and it is probably not on the 'fast' track.

Hey, no fair changing your post after I post my response.

Adding to my post; Tongue firmly embedded in cheek swearing to myself not to dwell on how top heavy the AF is, in the Navy, every first tour aviator can look around the ready room at his sixteen or so compatriots and, since yeargroups pretty much are assigned jobs at the same point, realize that only two or maybe three of them will ever achieve CO/XO of that type squadron. Everyone else is on a secondary track. With these odds, it is the intangibles as well as the obvious that ensures success.

Pima

29th March 2009, 01:45 PM

I agree that only a few statistically will ever become DO/CC or Wing King. I also agree some will become fast track burners, but that does not begin as an O-2, you typically will not see that occur until at least O-3, since the AF no longer has BPZ for O-4, you cannot be officially on that course for the 1st decade+ of your career. If you make O-5 2 BPZ you are still at the 15 yr point.

Bullet voluntarily stepped out or (de-selected) to go to the 82nd so he would not fly the 111 into the boneyard. He did this after the 1st tour, but had the strike not been coming on line and the 111, not been on the hitlist I don't know if he would have left it. He did 3 of his 4 operational tours flying the Strike....even after he completed his jt assignment he requested to go back. There at Seymour we ran into the exact same people who started off their career with him. Fliers will step out, some voluntarily, some not (hit list for remote), but they all try to return home to the nest. You must step out to get promoted, but it doesn't mean it is forever. Currently, you do not see a high number as 1/3 in the AF that willingly steps out after the 1st tour. I believe the 1st gate is at 8, stepping after 1st tour makes it near impossible to ever step back in, especially since you will need to attend an XT course. Why should they spend the money on you to retrain you if you willingly left? Only reason why, is because you voluntarily took a bad juju assignment (jumping out of perfectly good airplanes falls into that cat). You don't take that assignment unless you are getting something better...XTrain from Strike to 22. Otherwise, you ask to keep on flying and do not de-select, because to become that DO/CC later on, you want to be a patch wearer. To become a patch wearer you need to be the best in the Op world, win Top Gun every quarter, work in the Weapons shop and that does not happen as an O-2 it does when you are an O-3. You go there or Test, than you immediately go on to your next assignment flying with the lessons leaarned, become Weapons Shop Chief or Wing Weapons, now you are an O-4 you get PME in residence, do a desk, come back in as the O-5 select guy already targeted to take over as DO of a squadron. Do a DO, than a CC, get picked up 3 yrs later as BPZ for O-6, go to PME in residence, come back as Vice or DOG. As you can see they fly out to make ther gates. After O-6 all bets are off and most likely you will not see the inside of an Aircraft again.

Actually in the AF Strike they are not top heavy, because if they were they wouldn't have sent a message to those recent retirees to think about stepping back in since they need their experience.

The AF might be top heavy in ratio of Fighter pilots making O-6+ compared to everyone else, however look at it from a rational scenario. These guys/gals proved themselves 20 yrs earlier by graduating at the top of UPT/UNT. Then most if not all went onto WIC/Test,(again top of the top, b/c they also take heavies) from there they were BPZ and took a fighter squadron to the sandbox (again the AF never left and like Bullet said he was shot at in 99).
So even if the heavy guy/gal was on the same track, when we put the 2 side by side, the fighter most likely graduated 20 yrs earlier at a higher level than the heavy. That is also why many non-flyers want the promotion board changed from Line to rated, b/c rated are promoted at a higer % than non-rated. You can always take the pilot out nad make him Maintenance Commander, but the Maintenance commander can't become a flyer.

The AF is like the Navy it is dictated the % of Flag to Field and Field to Company. That is why you have to wait for your line number. You can't get promoted to Field if they don't retire fast enough. (Also why SERBs exist) You can only have a certain % and that is it. If you reduce the numbers of company grade, than Field grade must reduce (look back @97/98) the promotion rate to Major was low due to the fact that the company grade had been reduced in yrs prior, so they had to keep it in line. Than look at it in the past sev. yrs and not only was O-4 a higher %, but they sped up the boards, because the AF commissioned more in the late 90's early 00/01.
So thus, the AF can be no more top heavy than the Navy, it is dictated by the congress.

13ryan13

29th March 2009, 10:43 PM

This may be a stupid quesiton, but I honestly do not know the answer, so I'm hoping one of you experienced AF members can shed some light: How long does it take a person fresh out of UPT to actually get "behind the wheel" of an F-22, or any Air Force airplane in general? I dare to dream that I will be in the top 10% of my UPT class and will get selected to fly the F-22. Supposing that happens, would I have to be a certain rank to fly an F-22? Surely they don't let 2nd lieuts fly the most expensive fighter ever....

And I ask because I am strongly leaning towards this option... although the travelling opportunities for cargo are very tempting. And bombers are just BA. Wow, this is going to be a hard decision. (hoping I get to even make that decision lol)

flieger83

29th March 2009, 11:29 PM

ds52262

29th March 2009, 11:46 PM

Wasn't really sure who would answer this first Bullet or Fleiger, but knew the answer would be forthcoming. It is good to have goals and dreams. Press on with them, but always know it is a long road from that high school classroom just to graduating the Academy. Then there is the roadblock of pilot training. A lot of things can and will happen between now and then.

Christcorp

30th March 2009, 01:55 AM

I remember when my son first hit the altitude chamber at the academy. One of the guys he knew that always talked about flying; "Barely" made it through the chamber. Without anyone saying anything, the guy "Jokingly" (Yet, seriously) said; "Damn, I might have to see what other jobs there are. I don't feel too good". He survived, and is doing well. But that was just a taste of training. Some people get into soaring and the first time they've ever been in a plane, they have second thoughts. Most boys (And some girls); had at least one fantasy while growing up of being a fighter pilot. My equilibrium never would have allowed me to do it. As a gymnast, I could do LITERALLY ANYTHING as long as it was FORWARD. But I couldn't even do a simple back handspring because I'd lose my balance and direction. So just do your best. Keep your dreams alive. And at the end of your sophmore (c3) year; then you can figure out what it is you want to be when you grow up. In the mean time, keep dreaming and reaching for the stars. It's fun and great motivation. Just be ready for a reality check in a couple of years. For some, it will be exactly what you wanted coming in. For others, you will simply change your mind. (A young person changing their mind; what a concept). Yes, all of us old farts changed our minds a lot. Hey; I changed my mind and turned down a "Given" assignment to Hawaii (Wheeler); and instead chose to go to Bergstrom AFB, Austin Texas. Go figure!!! Best of luck... mike......

Bullet

30th March 2009, 02:29 AM

First off ryan, we're glad your here, it shows your dedication and desire. Like the old adage says: there are NO stupid questions. Ask away, we'll be glad to help in any way we can.

That being said, here is a pretty good link from another forum that explains the UPT process.

http://www.baseops.net/militarypilot/

On the bottom of the page, you'll also see a link to Seymour Johnson AFB, which details the transition course students fresh out of UPT will go through.

Bottom line to your question. Once you graduate from the Academy and you are on the the "pilot track", you start a hectic two years of training, to include a LOT of TDYs (going for a week or two to one location for different types of training) and PCS moves (going for months at a time for the longer training phases). Figure a year for UPT, with two separate phases (and possible moves for each). Right after that, you may have a week or two off waiting for the next available slot in either land survival training and water survival training (two different locations), and Centriguge training (required if you are going to fly fighters). Each one is a week or two.

You'll then be sent to your Transition Course for your particular airframe. Most of these courses are about 9 months long (depending on airframe) for students fresh out of UPT or UNT. The first few weeks are academics (getting to know each and every system in your jet in excrutiating detail), and simulator rides (getting to know how to WORK the systems in your jet). You can expect your first sortie within 3 to 4 weeks of your class start date, then to flyat least twice a week or more after that, all the while still doing acadmeics everyday and more simulator rides.

So, if you do get that F-22, you can expect to be flying in one within a couple of months from your UPT graduation date. And guess what? You'll still most likely will be a 2nd Lt when that happens! And don't call me Shirley... :thumb:

flieger83

30th March 2009, 02:48 AM

hornetguy

30th March 2009, 03:51 AM

the prettiest wife (I won that one)

So true! Love ya Pima! ;)

Pima

30th March 2009, 12:34 PM

Welcome back Hornet!

And the FIRST time you solo an AF jet...if you're like me, you'll be laughing hysterically into your oxygen mask because "they" are actually PAYING YOU to do this!!!

What a racket!

I got to fly the F-15...and they PAID ME....

I'd have paid THEM!

This is why spouses follow their mate around the world. In one average day kids can break their arm, cars can break down, dinner can burn and the dog can leave disgusting presents around the home, but as long as they come home after double turning smiling than it makes it worth it.

Seriously, there are not enough hands and feet on this forum to count for the amount of times Bullet said that. I remember one time Bullet's brother said he was jealous of him because, Bullet wasn't working to earn a paycheck he was doing it b/c he loved it.

For our last assignment everytime he left to fly, I would tell go and make love to that jet:wink:. Our joke was I was his mistress and the AF was his wife. He even remarked about this at his retirement. When you love what you do like that, the spouse gets it. You get it because you see the pure joy and would do anything to make sure that they keep having that happiness.

Going back to the original OP. as a Mom and a wife. I would turn to your son and just say forget the mission, forget the base assignment, forget everything. What route is going to be the one that will make you the happiest. When Bullet was a 1st Lt. we went through the 1st of 5 aircraft accidents, that took lives. Doe (Tom Dorsey) died on Feb. 5th 1990, with Cliffy (Cliff Massengill). Doe called his father that morning and said if I died today I would die a happy man doing what I love the most. He died about 10 hrs after talking to his Dad. His father said it gave him great comfort knowing that his son died happy. That is how I approach the fact that our DS will be flying. I am very well aware of the risks, but if he enjoys it 1/10 as much as Bullet, than I will be very happy for whatever track he takes. I kno one day he will turn to Bullet and tell him I get it now why you loved th AF so much and why we moved so frequently...there is nothing more I want than to see my name on the schedule, I also get now why you always got ticked when it was pulled. It's kind of like telling a pregnant woman you will have that baby tomorrow, and you don't! There is nothing worse to a flyer than a jet not being delivered by maintenance or being pulled from the schedule! OK the only thing worse is being pulled from the schedule to do a AF Politically correct mandated class for 4 hours! AS a spouse that's the day, you tell him I am going to take the kids to Chucky Cheese, I left dinner in the oven.:shake: And make sure the bottle of Jack and a can of Coke is on the counter! (for CC, its Weed in the freezer!)

BTW if you want to be the cool folks and give him a gift at graduation buy him a bottle of Jeremiah Weed, he'll be impressed that you know about it. Tell him he better not have to hand it over to the squadron though! (everytime a pilot makes Betty Beaach, they owe a bottle to the squadron...OVER G...OVER G! ) The other thing you should give him is a case of beer, in case maintenance has to save his butt for leaving something in the cockpit(i.e. Bullet lost his wedding ring and they found it...well worth the cost instead of facing me), or for his 1st roof stomp!

13ryan13

30th March 2009, 12:35 PM

Whooo! You guys just made my day.

Pima

30th March 2009, 01:22 PM

Thats what we are hear for!

ABOVE ALL...AIM HIGH

flieger83

30th March 2009, 09:15 PM

PIMA...

"...BTW if you want to be the cool folks and give him a gift at graduation buy him a bottle of Jeremiah Weed, he'll be impressed that you know about it. Tell him he better not have to hand it over to the squadron though! (everytime a pilot makes Betty Beaach, they owe a bottle to the squadron...OVER G...OVER G! ) The other thing you should give him is a case of beer, in case maintenance has to save his butt for leaving something in the cockpit(i.e. Bullet lost his wedding ring and they found it...well worth the cost instead of facing me), or for his 1st roof stomp! "

You're giving away ALL the secrets of the association! :shake:

The cases of beer in my youth...had my share of "oops" maneuvers. And the bottle to the alert tanker crew when I beat up the Viper swine over the ocean and then realized that a WHILE ago I had heard Betty crooning "..BINGO...FUEL.....BINGO....FUEL..." :hammer:

And between me and the home drome was a LOT of water... :yikes:

Christcorp

31st March 2009, 04:27 AM

My wife got turned onto Jeremiah Weed at the falcon football games. Our tailgate party has a toast just prior to closing the tailgate and going to see the game. In honor of those..... My wife actually likes the taste. I can do shots but it's not a real good sipper. Of course; we always have a bottle in the house.

Pima

31st March 2009, 11:52 AM

I can't sip that, it has to be done like a shot for me, and then I always do the dog shaking their head maneuvre afterwards.

CC will disagree with me, but weed to me taste just like NYQUIL! ECK! Even thinking about it I can feel my tongue wanting to stick out, my eyes cringing and shoulders raising up!

Weed is hard to find except near any military base. For us when DS gets commissioned I already know what I am going to give him. It is our traditional gift. BULLEIT Bourbon. Yes, there is actually a bourbon named Bulleit and it is good. Easy to find in the OH/Kentucky area, but not nationally. Most of the time we have to order it.

Another great gift is Scotch...if you go onto the Johnny Walker website, you can order specialty labels for the bottle. We have done that for special occassions and it is cool. You can buy whichever level yoou want, red, black, green, blue or gold. So when he gets his track or plane you can have it read Lt XXX and something about the plane.

As far as Betty, in both of our cars we have built in Navs and my clients know I call her Betty. Inevitably it comes out why, and the history behind it. Typically when I overshoot my direction that she gave me, my clients will tell me I owe them a bottle of WEED, b/c she beaached at me(please make a U-turn if possible). I of course tell them what it tastes like and they ask for a different liquor. I tell them no only Weed for tradition. I have had to only buy 1 client Weed...3 yrs later they tell me that is still in their freezer!
I know this diverted somewhat from the main thread, but it is still about commonalities in the flying community.

packermatt7

31st March 2009, 12:39 PM

I love how the discussion went from airplanes to hard liquor :biggrin:

Just_A_Mom

31st March 2009, 12:40 PM

:topic:

I am pretty sure this thread had gotten waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy off topic.

Pima

31st March 2009, 01:08 PM

I agree it has veered away from the OP, however, I think that everything that needs to said has been already stated. Thus, like most threads it starts to divert from the reason it was started. SUch is life for forums.

Trying to put it back on topic.

What airframe is your sons top picks for heavy or fighters, this might be another thing he needs to add into the equation. Will he be happy flying a KC for refueling fighetrs or does he only want to fly a C-5 regarding heavies. Is he willing to take any fighter? WIll he be happy flying a Strike? One problem with some pilots is the fact they don't like having a WSO telling them what to do. There are many single seat mentality pilots in the Strike. I maybe biased, but to me there is nothing worse. I will never forget Gen McPeak visiting Upper Heyford (he was a former 111 pilot) and at a dining in he stated to those in attendance "he would rather have a pint of ale in his right seat over a WSO anytime. Talk about bad SA, when 50% were the right seater at this function. Then again, he's the jerk that re-did the flight suit to have seams put down the front! (I hate him for that, b/c it took me hours with a seam ripper to remove them:thumbdown:)

So if he doesn't want to listen to the GIB or Nav, he should also re-think which airframe he is suitable for as a pilot and strive for that.

AFAMOM08

31st March 2009, 03:24 PM

Lots of great information and advice !!! I have learned a lot. Spoke to son on Sunday evening, he read all of the comments on the thread and found many of them informative and thought provoking. He is hoping to get online and on the thread but as you all know they don't have a lot of time at this point in their training. He starts formation flying this week.

Pima, thanks for the ideas for gifts. Thank you all for your responses. [/B] :thumb:

Pima

31st March 2009, 03:41 PM

I love watching formation flying, especially when they break. I can remember watching the jets come in and counting to 10, Bullet and I would always look at each other if they were off the count:wink:

Only thing bad about him reading the thread is you won't be cool anymore and surprise him with any of the ideas that we suggested!

btown13

1st April 2009, 03:03 AM

just got done reading all of this, and like ryan, i have been thinking lots about the jet i will hopefully get to fly after UPT. Thanks a lot to everyone for posting about all of this and letting us have a bit of a glimpse into our lives later down the road. Quick question of my own, even though we only have 183 F-22s right now, and the number, if increased, will only go up to about 200, will there still be raptor cockpits for us 13ers to fly after UPT?

Christcorp

1st April 2009, 04:40 AM

There are so many things that can happen in 5 years. Including a freeze on pilots. I don't mean to make light of your question, but you've been here too long to know what my response is probably going to be. "Serenity Prayer". Why even worry about something that you have absolutely 0% of affecting? By the time my son graduates and gets through UPT (God Willing) and you later on; we could have a whole new economic situation in the country/world. A whole new president and congress. New threats and new allies. Life is too short my friend. Have fun my friend. Enjoy what is in front of you today. Get through school, the academy, figure out your job, and then worry about what your options are. best of luck. mike.....

Pima

1st April 2009, 12:50 PM

CC is right on the mark as usual.

A couple of life experiences to support his position.

1. In 92/93 the AF brought the pipeline to a screeching halt. One day it was fine the next day they sent out an AF wide memo stating that classes would be smaller and spaced out further to slow the amount of pilots graduating. Also there would be less fighters given, and that almost everybody would get heavies. Only 1 or 2 may get fighters. Prior to this every yr there would be sev. WSO's trying to xtrain into UPT. This action made WSO's rethink submitting their papers..do I want to be a WSO in a fighter or fly heavies...I can't recall any WSO putting in papers after that. 2 were already accepted to UPT with class start dates, 1 graduated top of his class and got the 16, the other grad #2 and got a C-21

2. Due to the closure of the pipeline, boneyarding of the 4 and 111, the AF xtrained from this pool for the Strike. When we arrived at Elmendorf Dec 95, they were so top heavy in O-4s they actually made E Flight, which was commonly referred to as the Majors flight (had to be a Major). The 1st time a Lt. showed up was August 96. The next time another Lt. showed up was Mar of 97. No more Lts. showed up until Aug 98 (a whole bunch ---3). Everybody else were flyers that took a bad juju assignment (remote to Korea). The AFMPC made a deal with them you do the bad juju, we'll give you your top pick! Strike Elmendorf here we come! Thus, MPC didn't need to hand out any Strikes to the younguns, b/c they had more volunteers than they could handle. AT one point everybody it seemed like everybody had ALO experience under their belt, and most knew Camp Red Cloud, SKORE real well.

3. Currently, this is occurring for the 22. Bullet's AF counterpart O-5 sel., has taken the bad juju (Pentagon) in hopes that he will get the 22. What does this mean to you...it means that the 22 for a while will most likely be filled with exp pilots and not fresh grads. There will be new grads, but they will be a raririty compared to common place. However, in a few yrs. as these higher ranked officers step out for PME and a desk, they will need to fill with recent UPT grads at a higher rate.

4. Just realize that if you don't get the 22 right out of the gate, that doesn't mean you will never fly the jet. I highly doubt that the AF will ever stop the scratch my back system. You might have to bite the bullet and spend a yr being an ALO(AIR LIASION OFFICER...not to be confused with the AFA ALO type), but as long as you always see the light at the end it will be well worth the sacrifice.

For now, you need to hit the books and keep your eye on being commissioned. Without being commissioned this discussion is for naught. You can't fly unless you are selected for UPT. You can't be selected for UPT without those butter bars!

AFAMOM08

2nd June 2009, 03:10 PM

Just thought I would let you all know what my son decided. He ended up in the #2 position in his class. He was told that he would get his pick. After much soul searching and the knowledge that currently each T-38 class only gets 1 F-16 he decided that he would go the heavy route and is currently at the top of his T-1 class. He is happy with his decision especially with the news on the reduction of fighters system wide. He is hoping to get a C-17 and see the world. :thumb:

hornetguy

2nd June 2009, 06:29 PM

Congrats and good luck to your son!

Bombtrack

2nd June 2009, 11:05 PM

congrats! I'm guessing he really wanted an f-16. how many f-15s were they offering? Or am I being completely clueless about this process? lol

Bullet

3rd June 2009, 01:15 AM

Congrats to your son! Here's hoping to his continued success.

BTW, now that he's going to see the world in his new career, get used to getting gifts and trinkets from some rather unusual locations for the Holidays and your birthday. "Here, Mom! It's a good-luck medallion I picked up in some shop in Boreo last month. What? You don't like that it's shaped like a monkey with his thumb on his nose and he's sticking his tongue out at you? Well, you're going to HATE the matching ear-rings then! Merry Christmas!"

He'll have a blast in the heavy community, and he made the smart decision for him. What else could a parent ask for? :thumb:

AFAMOM08

10th November 2009, 04:28 AM

:beer1:Update--UPT drop was last Friday--my son will be heading to Travis AFB, CA to fly a KC-10--He is thrilled with the outcome and is looking forward to starting his new assignment. We are thrilled since he is within driving distance of home!!

tpg

10th November 2009, 04:33 PM

:We are thrilled since he is within driving distance of home!!

I am so happy for you. :thumb:

Bullet

10th November 2009, 09:52 PM

First off, pass him our heart-felt congratulations!

As to you seeing him more often because he will be in driving distance? Well, yes and no. Yes, because getting together will be easier. No, because he's flying KC-10s, he won't BE at his home as much as you would like.

It's a great big world out there. Being a KC-10 driver, he'll get to see most of it! Often.

Calling Flieger. Calling Flieger. Sounds like you got another tanker guy out there just starting out. Some words of wisdom and experience may be in order. Via PM to AFAMOM08 if you prefer, but I think quite a few of us here may be interested. I'd probably start him off with some scary "there I was" story about a 4-ship tanker cell, at night, in the soup, with a bunch of clueless fighters trying to wreck everyone's day during their rejoin through the package... :thumb:

AFAMOM08

11th November 2009, 02:22 AM

Viper56

11th November 2009, 03:37 AM

single seat...single tail... single engine...all else is rubbish!

flieger83

11th November 2009, 03:43 AM

single seat...single tail... single engine...all else is rubbish!
Just remember what a famous F-16 driver, "Fifi" Malachowski (first female Thunderbird pilot) said on her "hero" plaque in the 63d FS (her F-16 training squadron) hall of fame...

(a picture of the TBirds in diamond formation four-ship in the center of the plaque)

When America wants the world to see unrivaled power, with four thundering engines and four razor sharp tails, moving in perfect combat formation, who does she send?

A 2-Ship of F-15s! :thumb:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

flieger83

11th November 2009, 03:45 AM

Thanks for the kind words--I look forward to hearing all of the stories from Flieger--LOL

We are heading to Del Rio early next week prior to graduation to see the base and experience the flight simulators- should be fun!!! We haven't seen out son since last Christmas--It's been a good few days to say the least!

LOL!

Ahh...TDY stories...yep...there are more than a few. I'll "think some" tonight...see if I can "clean some up" a bit and post them... :rolleyes:

Just tell the future tanker TOAD what TOAD means!

T-otally
O-utstanding
A-irplane
D-river

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
NKAWTG

Bullet

11th November 2009, 12:03 PM

flieger83

11th November 2009, 02:02 PM

I laughed when I first heard about Fifi's plaque. But she forgot one fact: most likely, they won't get there from home (either the F-16s or F-15s), UNLESS they are following a KC-10!

One team, one fight.
The plaque is in the middle of the hallway, near the ready area...it's sorta large and also has the T-Bird #7? pilot (narrator) as he was in class with her and also an Eagle driver if I remember correctly.

It's really VERY well done!
(we hold our reserve meetings in the 63d)

As for the "One team" that's totally correct! Can't whip the badguys without the "pointy end" folks...and they can't get the mission done without the rest of the force!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

flieger83

11th November 2009, 02:27 PM

Okay...first "yes, really" story for our future TOAD...

Sometime during your young career you'll be tasked to do a "fighter drag" over the ocean either to some lovely European locale or a likewise nice place in the Pacific (I'm avoiding the trips to the AOR aka: Sandland). This trip will involve moving several fighters or attack aircraft (sorry that Eagle part of me just refuses to see the A-10 as a fighter, although once I was dumb enough to enter a furrball and a '10 was there in the process of learning all about BFM and he had the gall to point his nose at me :eek: )

:eek: BIG REALLY BIG GUN!!! :eek:

Anyway...these missions are typically as short as 6 hours and as long as 8 hours. While they're usually BORING...think airline droning all that time with the boom cycling jets on and off taking small fuel loads about every 30-45 minutes. Somewhere along that trip there will come a desire, and its fiendish, to make some "snippy" comment to the fighter guy that is SOOOOO bored he does something like flip his jet inverted, or roll around your jet, or something similar. Something like a comment about: "Wow, that was impressive...think I'll get up now and get a coke, hit the head, pop some popcorn, etc...YOU WANT ANY?"

Now...while there's a rivalry amongst all airplane drivers and WSO's...this is the ONE time it's not really nice to spank the "pointy nose" folks. Why?

Because they're locked in their jets, on a boom seat, in a poopy suit, with ALL their survival gear, etc...etc...and OH YES, they get hungry too! So they typically have box lunches, bags of trail mix, etc., and some type of liquid beverage (water, fruit juice, etc...) to stave off dehydration.

BUT...they have no way to get up, stretch, or go to the head (remember that hydration need)! Well, that last part isn't totally true...but its better left unsaid here. And the OTHER toilet option??? DO NOT even go there!

So around hour 4+, it's nice to remember that while you're enjoying your iPOD, or a movie, that they're sitting there trying VERY HARD not to fall asleep (that will be another story)...engage them in a conversation...make arrangements for a visit to the bar/beach/etc., upon arrival, if possible...you can make some great friends! (Got tossed out of the O'Club at Lajes AB, Azores once with a bunch of A-10 guys after a long overwater...but that's another story!:thumb:)

FYI...if anyone wants to know what its like to fly a "pointy nose" on an overwater deployment mission...without wearing all the gear (Helmet, mask, g-suit, poopy suit, water survival gear, tight parachute harness, etc...etc...), simply go to your dinner table...put a once-folded towel on the table, climb up and sit upon it.

Now stay there for 5-8 hours. :eek:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

AFAMOM08

12th November 2009, 06:00 PM

Thanks Flieger, passed this on to DS. I'm sure he will love hearing more stories now that he has the time to actually picture what his future will be--

We are heading to Laughlin AFB early next week for graduation-(graduation is Nov 20)-Haven't found much information regarding traditions or events for the graduation, any advice or insight would be appreciated. I did get the silver pilot wings for him and have ordered the Johnny Walker Blue labels--any other ideas?

Pima

12th November 2009, 06:24 PM

If you go on the Johnny Walker site, you can actually join and make a special label to put on it...we did that for our friends when they retired, with the dates.
(You are probably too late to get that label, but just keep it in your mind for when he graduates from the KC school)

I know when Bullet graduated, I actually placed his wings on. It is an amazing moment (21 yrs later and I can tell you the weather and what I wore)...you will cry and make sure you have kleenex, because through the ceremony you will learn a lot more, regardless of how close you are! You will be shocked in awe what he did for a yr and how he beat the odds! It is a moment to recognize him, but at the same time realize that you were his soft landing spot when it was bad and you too are an important factor in his success! That being said...here's the thing, the very best thing you can do is to let him run and cut your apron strings...HE MADE IT...now is the time to realize that he is amazing and the AF has entrusted him with multi-million dollar equipment. He is flat out amazing!

For graduation, I hope you got the AF reg wings. There are 2 types. Does he own a mess dress? If not buy him one, if so, the wings for the mess dress and blues are different, so that might be an option. Of course a pair of cool Oakleys would always be appreciated! If not that, then how about some blues, because in the AF now, if you aren't flying on Monday you must wear the blues.

Finally, my last suggestion would be to give a late present, take a shot at his ceremony and frame it, tell him it will be a late gift, and ask for his scarves and patches in addition to his UPT certificate, make a shadow box out of it for his "I Love Me"...trust me when he sees that he will love it and proudly display it for the rest of his life.