What's happening with Army ROTC?

Pima said:
"A lot of what the Army has achieved falls squarely on the shoulders of approximately 8,000 recruiters around the world, and they deserve the credit for the 2009 success," the major general said.

"I think the most important thing that helps us with success - whether you're talking money, resources, or advertising - is having the right number of recruiters; (those) Soldiers, on the ground," he said. "That's what it really comes down to."
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The article covers both enlisted recruitment and officer training and accessions, in the quote above, the major general is referring to the recruiting of enlisted personnel.

However the quote; "Of the Officer Candidate School's 2,450 graduates, Army recruiters accounted for 1,604 of them, the most ever for USAREC."
That does show that Army recruiters are signing cadets up for OCS.
 
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Pima,
I never got any help from a traditional recruiter...
When I tried to talk to a recruiter about him giving the PFT(Long story), he was not interested in helping me get to ROTC. He wanted me to enlist first.

That being said, ROO officers at each battalion have been a huge help and seem to function as AROTC recruiters. :thumb:
 
The OC Josh said:
Every PMS I talked to last year mentioned that their scholarships were drastically cut. Numerous other posters have confirmed this.
I absolutely agree that in this economy, the competition is definitely tougher. However, this issue is definitely compounded with fewer scholarships
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The OC Josh,

In 2008 the Army went back to a more centralized board system and cut back on the CBSP (Campus Based Scholarship Program) That reduced the PMS's control over many of their scholarships. A PMS could easily see this as having 'their scholarships' drastically cut.

In a addition the Army is now offering 4 year scholarships to many (1000+/-) of the rejected (9000+/-) USMA applicants (many of whom never applied to ROTC) Only about 40% are accepted, but that is still about 15% of the total 4 yr scholarships awarded. These scholarships are carte blanche, and are obviously going to be used at good and/or expensive schools. This new program may be effectively knocking the bottom 15% of ROTC apps out of the hunt, with the greatest impact felt in the top schools.

Applying to West Point may now be the best route to a ROTC scholarship.:eek:
(Probably not the case if you are accepted and turn it down?)
 
GoJack,
I wasn't talking about 2008.
I was awarded a scholarship in Oct of 2009. I started school a month ago.
What I meant was that PMSes saw significant reductions in the scholarships when comparing the amount 2009-2010 Freshman to 2010-2011 Freshman scholarships...

I can't comment on the Westpoint thing because I've never heard of that before...
 
gojack said:
The OC Josh,

In 2008 the Army went back to a more centralized board system and cut back on the CBSP (Campus Based Scholarship Program) That reduced the PMS's control over many of their scholarships. A PMS could easily see this as having 'their scholarships' drastically cut.

In a addition the Army is now offering 4 year scholarships to many (1000+/-) of the rejected (9000+/-) USMA applicants (many of whom never applied to ROTC) Only about 40% are accepted, but that is still about 15% of the total 4 yr scholarships awarded. These scholarships are carte blanche, and are obviously going to be used at good and/or expensive schools. This new program may be effectively knocking the bottom 15% of ROTC apps out of the hunt, with the greatest impact felt in the top schools.

Applying to West Point may now be the best route to a ROTC scholarship.:eek:
(Probably not the case if you are accepted and turn it down?)
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gojack,

Can I ask where you are getting your information from?

The cuts that the PMS were talking about were the National Scholarships. If they were say 22 4-year scholarships the previous year, there were now 10 National and 2 campus based. This seems to be a drastic cut in the amount of scholarships.

As far as those that were turned down by West Point getting ROTC scholarships to where ever they wanted to go, again, where did you get that information????

There has been talk about the possibility that scholarships may be offered to a few on that were on the waiting list during the 2008 year but I didn't hear anything about that this yera. However, you do need to have applied for the ROTC scholarships and you needed to be on the National Waiting List. In order to be on the National Waiting list you have to have been found fully qualified and have a nomination to West Point.
Applying to West Point is a very long process and only for those who are truly committed. To apply to West Point without any intention of going but obtaining a ROTC scholarship isn't going to be viewed well by West Point.

We just went through the ROTC process and the West Point Application process last school year. I know others who went through the same process as well. I also know kids that were high on the National Wait List that didn't apply for ROTC and they weren't offered some Carte Blanche ROTC scholarship to whatever school they wanted.
My son was on the National Waiting List and independently received a ROTC scholarship that he accepted and is currently using as a freshman in college right now. We had many, many discussions with ROTC, various schools, West Point, etc and I guess received some different information than what you have.
 
Evidently the Army thinks they are getting smaller. The following is from the "Need more information" page of the current Army ROTC application.

https://hs.usarmyrotc.com/USACC/,DanaInfo=.a1-4C5.CG-.JAAG+MoreInfo.aspx

"Army ROTC provides college-trained officers for the Army, Army Reserve and Army National Guard. The Army ROTC program is offered at more than 600 colleges and universities throughout the nation. As the largest single source of Army officers, the ROTC program fulfills a vital role in providing mature young men and women for leadership and management positions in an increasingly technical Army.

Though the Army is getting smaller it still needs thousands of new officers each year. The following ROTC's benefits remain intact: training, challenges, excitement, money, career preparation and post-college employment."
 
cjs said:
As far as those that were turned down by West Point getting ROTC scholarships to where ever they wanted to go, again, where did you get that information
Click to expand...


OFFICER CORPS STRATEGY SERIES
ACCESSING TALENT:
THE FOUNDATION OF A U.S. ARMY OFFICER
CORPS STRATEGY
February 2010
PG 29
"A recent pilot program to cross market applicants
from West Point to ROTC shows significant promise.
Each year, West Point receives more than 10,000
applicants for some 1,300 open seats. Yet of the more
than 8,000 surplus applicants, historically fewer than
100 would end up participating in ROTC. Beginning in
2008, West Point and ROTC began a cross marketing
program that resulted in more than 400 of these surplus
West Point applicants accepting ROTC scholarships.
The program was based on several of the theoretical
principles outlined above. Before notifying a West Point
applicant that he or she did not receive admission, an
ROTC selection board reviewed the files and selected
roughly 1,000 of the applicants to receive an offer of
an ROTC scholarship. Rather than receiving a letter
of notification that an individual was not accepted to
West Point, he received a phone call from an officer
letting him know that while he did not get accepted
at West Point and although he had not applied for
an ROTC scholarship, the Army really valued his
application and was prepared to offer him a full ROTC
scholarship at any ROTC program in the country. In
essence, the Army reframed the opportunity to serve
in the Army, but through a different source. The results
are promising, as during the past 2 years, more than
400 of the 1,000 scholarship offers were accepted—and
none of these applicants had previously applied to
ROTC.
 
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FY 2009 Defense Budget

Adding 92,000 Active Duty Troops to Army and Marine Corps End-Strength by FY2012
Year by Year
End-Strength Projections
FY2007 522.4K
FY2008 525.4K
FY2009 532.4K
FY2010 539.4K
FY2011 546.4K
FY2012 547.4K
FY2013 547.4K

FY2010 Defense Budget
End-Strength Increase
Secretary Gates recommended that the FY2010 budget complete the ongoing expansion of the Army and Marine Corps, halt further personnel reductions in the Air Force and Navy (possibly at end-strength levels of 330,000 and 329,000 respectively), and fund these end strength levels at a cost of $11 billion.
Until recently, the Army had a permanent active component end strength of 482,400 while the active component Marine Corps had a permanent end strength of 175,000. As recently as the 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR), DOD maintained that these strengths were adequate.
However, the reality of fighting a multi-front war for more than five years with an all volunteer force eventually compelled the administration to reexamine its end strength position. Having resisted previous congressional calls to permanently increase the end strength for the Army and
the Marine Corps, on January 19, 2007 DOD announced that it would seek approval to increase the permanent end strength of both services.
As reflected in both the FY2008 President’s budget request and the FY2008 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the Army’s revised authorization cap is 547,400 by 2012, an increase of 65,000 over the previous baseline of 482,400. The Marine Corps’ revised authorization cap is 202,000 by 2011, an increase of 27,000 over the previous baseline of 175,000.
In reality, both services should easily achieve their authorization levels by the end of FY2009, three years earlier than required for the Army and two years earlier than required for the Marine
Corps. Through intense recruiting and retention efforts, the Army ended FY2008 at a strength of 543,645 while the Marine Corps ended the year at a strength of 198,505.
The Air Force has been drawing down personnel for the past several years to fund equipment modernization programs. At the end of FY2004, the Air Force had a personnel strength of 376,600 with a plan to reduce by 60,000 personnel and achieve an end strength of 316,600 by the end of FY2009. However, on June 8, 2008, the Secretary of Defense announced the end of the Air Force drawdown. While the FY2009 NDAA authorized and funding the Air Force at 317,050, DOD is committed to stabilizing the Service at a strength of approximately 330,000. This represents only a slight increase from the Air Force’s strength on September 30, 2008 of 327,379.
The Navy, on the other hand, has been downsizing by 8,000 to 10,000 personnel a year for the past 6 to 7 years, attempting to reach a goal of 329,000, the number required to sustain 313 ships and approximately 3,800 aircraft. The Navy ended FY2008 with a personnel strength of 332, 228
and projected a FY2009 end strength of 326,323.
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gojack said:
OFFICER CORPS STRATEGY SERIES
ACCESSING TALENT:
THE FOUNDATION OF A U.S. ARMY OFFICER
CORPS STRATEGY
February 2010
PG 29
"A recent pilot program to cross market applicants
from West Point to ROTC shows significant promise.
Each year, West Point receives more than 10,000
applicants for some 1,300 open seats. Yet of the more
than 8,000 surplus applicants, historically fewer than
100 would end up participating in ROTC. Beginning in
2008, West Point and ROTC began a cross marketing
program that resulted in more than 400 of these surplus
West Point applicants accepting ROTC scholarships.
The program was based on several of the theoretical
principles outlined above. Before notifying a West Point
applicant that he or she did not receive admission, an
ROTC selection board reviewed the files and selected
roughly 1,000 of the applicants to receive an offer of
an ROTC scholarship. Rather than receiving a letter
of notification that an individual was not accepted to
West Point, he received a phone call from an officer
letting him know that while he did not get accepted
at West Point and although he had not applied for
an ROTC scholarship, the Army really valued his
application and was prepared to offer him a full ROTC
scholarship at any ROTC program in the country. In
essence, the Army reframed the opportunity to serve
in the Army, but through a different source. The results
are promising, as during the past 2 years, more than
400 of the 1,000 scholarship offers were accepted—and
none of these applicants had previously applied to
ROTC.
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I guess that means that in for the incoming 2008 and 2009 classes, the Army offered 1,000 scholarships to the top West Point applicants that did not get an appointment to West Point. Cutting that in half it would be about 500 per class.

I wonder what the number of ROTC scholarships were for the incoming class of 2010. It would be interesting to know if there were the same number of offers made as in previous years.
 
Getting back to the original question "What's happening with Army ROTC?"

Here is my 'wild-a$$-guess'.

There used to be a federal legal limit (416/yr) on the number of Army Reserve and Army National Guard ROTC scholarships. That has been changed, and there is now, no legislated limit, on the number of these scholarships.

IMHO: The Army has made a strategic decision to do more Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP) scholarships.

SMP Advantages, for the Army:
-Higher level of commitment, you must enlist to participate.
-Costs Army Less
-----2 and 3 yr programs only
-----State's funding SMP program, only some states pay for some of NG tuition/fees, so must be state funds.
-----Part of SMP funds are 'Federal Tuition Assistance' (maybe not out of Army budget?)
-The Tuition Reimbursement Program, still makes a commission possible, for lower income students.
-Student must attend a yr of college, AND get acceptable GPA, so already 'proven' college material.
-Cadets intern/mentor/drill with a unit, learning more about future job and the Army.
-Better trained - SMP'ers are encouraged to complete Basic and AIT (with a $350/month 'kicker')
-It takes 143 ROTC cadets to produce 100 commissioned Army officers, w/SMP at least part of those 'extra' 43 are now national guard, and are not completely lost resources.

This is Speculation and Conjecture on my part, take it with a grain of salt.

SMP is being promoted heavily.


Sec. 523. Repeal of annual limit on number of ROTC scholarships under Army Reserve and Army National Guard financial assistance program.

PUBLIC LAW 110–181—JAN. 28, 2008 122 STAT. 103
SEC. 523. REPEAL OF ANNUAL LIMIT ON NUMBER OF ROTC SCHOLARSHIPS
UNDER ARMY RESERVE AND ARMY NATIONAL
GUARD FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM.
Section 2107a(h) of title 10, United States Code, is amended
by striking ‘‘not more than 416 cadets each year under this section,
to include’’ and inserting ‘‘each year under this section’’.
 
gojack - you could be right, that they are pushing SMP more. The guard and reserves have taken a huge hit fighting two wars for the past 6 years.
SMP is a great deal, as a contracted ROTC cadet you are not deployable and you get points toward your OML for participation in the Guard. Some Army schools are also more readily available because you can get in under the Guard and not ROTC.

One clarification on SMP - whether or not you go to boot camp or ait depends on some timing factors.
I believe now, once you contract with ROTC if you haven't gone to boot camp or ait then you can't go. ROTC just had too many cadets resign their ROTC contract and deploy with their unit.
If you are in the Guard/Reserves you can't deploy unless you have gone to boot camp and ait.

Federal tuition assistance is $4500 per calendar year. You can take this and still commission AD. If you take a Dedicated NG/GFRD scholarship then you must commission into the guard or reserves. If you accept state assistance from the Guard you will probably have to commission into that states Guard.
As with everything, watch where you are getting your $$$ from, ask questions and read the fine print.

Oh, btw - one benefit to SMP is that your time in college counts as years in service, while ROTC does not. So, if you enlist into the guard during your sophomore year and graduate with two years in service you will be making more than your ROTC scholarship (or West Point) peer.
 
I had a lengthy discussion with a PMS of one of the schools on my son's school choice list. She said, 20% of the ROTC scholarships are now under her control, as in, not national scholarship, but campus scholarship. She made it sound like that used not be the case (she is a relatively new PMS, so she was not sure whether that was the case a couple of years back).

If this is new for the class of 2014 (incoming freshmen 2010), then perhaps this explains partly why there were ~2600 scholarship granted as of spring/summer 2010 as opposed to ~4500 year before? If we assume some ROTC scholarship funding reduction together with more scholarship now shifted from national to campus, then together these two factors will explain why the number of "AWARDED" scholarship as of spring/summer of 2010 seem so drastically smaller than that of the year prior (close to half etc).

This factor (shifting of some national scholarship to campus scholarship) matters a lot to us. Financially, we can go without scholarship. If my son is accepted into his dream school, I will be inclined to let him enroll even without the scholarship hoping that there is a good chance that he can get a campus scholarship since there are ROTC scholarship earmarked for campus distribution. I have a high level of confidence that he has a good shot at winning campus based scholarship. Worst comes worst, we can pay for the private school tuition in his dream school.

I am not an expert, so I may be totally wrong. I would welcome insight from other more experience/educated folks on this.
 
educateme said:
I have a high level of confidence that he has a good shot at winning campus based scholarship.
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Thanks for the information educateme.
Question: If you are confident that your son has a shot at winning a campus based scholarship, wouldn't you be equally confident that he could win a National AROTC scholarship prior to being admitted into his "dream" school? Would the standards be "lower" for a campus based scholarship or are there some others factors that you are considering?
 
educateme said:
She said, 20% of the ROTC scholarships are now under her control, as in, not national scholarship, but campus scholarship. She made it sound like that used not be the case (she is a relatively new PMS, so she was not sure whether that was the case a couple of years back).
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February 2010

In 2008, ROTC returned to a centralized scholarship
selection. This policy change appreciates the framing
preferences of the current generation, since they are
the ones making the final decision about serving
as an officer. It also gives ROTC greater flexibility
in ensuring that high-potential talent does not fall
completely out of ROTC simply because one school
declined acceptance to the individual. Furthermore, it
provides information to the Army on where applicants
desire to attend school. Armed with such information,
the Army can begin to realign resources against the
demands of its applicants instead of forcing applicants
to adjust to the inertia of the Army bureaucracy.
 
Thanks for the information educateme.
Question: If you are confident that your son has a shot at winning a campus based scholarship, wouldn't you be equally confident that he could win a National AROTC scholarship prior to being admitted into his "dream" school? Would the standards be "lower" for a campus based scholarship or are there some others factors that you are considering
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I did not say I have a high level of confidence that he has a good shot for the campus scholarship because he is a perfect kid. Here is how we are playing this whole thing.

He is planning to apply to ED to his dream school. It's a slightly a reach school, because of his relatively low GPA (his SAT is at/beyond the 75% level at that school). We also know that in that school, ED applicants get boost. In fact, in almost all schools, ED applicants get boost. There was even a book about the admission games and the author showed, after pretty extensive data analysis, that ED application almost equals extra 100 points in SAT or equivalent in GPA.

I feel that if he gets admitted to his dream school, there is a good chance that his overall stats (because of GPA) will put him on a middle or lower middle end of the all the kids admitted to that school. We also know that the ROTC scholarship competition will be tough since that battalion is highly sought after and the number of scholarship is decreasing. I assume the kids who get scholarship in that battalion are those who are well above the average admitted student in that school.

In conclusion, I am assuming that it will be far more difficult to get the national scholarship to that battalion than to get admitted to that school in the ED round. That's why he may be admitted to the school without the scholarship.

National scholarships are awarded by people who evaluate candidates based on paperwork and written information (no direct interaction/observation of the candidates). Campus scholarships are awarded by the PMS who have a chance to get to know the candidates through direct interaction and have the time/occasion to observe him on a prolonged basis.

If he gets admitted to the school, he will immediately join ROTC hoping to get 3-4 year campus scholarship. And, it will become apparent how dedicated he is. He spent 2 weeks this summer in an annual junior ranger school for survival training, mountain search and rescue (affiliated with/supported by Air Force), and he was selected as the best cadet out of 300+ tough nut cadets.
I believe it's the same quality that got him his award in the ranger school that will also help him stand out in a competition for a campus scholarship.

This is the reason why I believe that odds are better for him to get admitted to his dream school than the odds of getting the national scholarship for that battalion, and the odds of getting the campus scholarship is pretty good for him once he is competing for the campus scholarship. No certainty, but good statistical odds. We are fortunate in that even if the worst comes, meaning, he enrolls in his dream school, and no scholarship is to be had, national or campus, we can still pay his private school tuition.

If the finance were to be an overriding concern, this strategy wouldn't work because the risk is too high.
 
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educateme said:
I assume the kids who get scholarship in that battalion are those who are well above the average admitted student in that school.
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First of all I am definitely NOT an expert in AROTC scholarships. Or any scholarships for that matter. That said, are you sure the above is true? You might want to ask the PMS about the stats of the AROTC scholarship students compared to the rest of the college. It may be that at the more difficult schools to get admitted that AROTC students may have more of the middle 50 percentile numbers.
educateme said:
In conclusion, I am assuming that it will be far more difficult to get the national scholarship to that battalion than to get admitted to that school in the ED round.
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Again, you could be correct. However the PMS may have some good news for you.
 
aglages,

we cross posted/edited. I deleted "no need to be sarcastic", because I realized that probably I read more into your wording than you intended, but not fast enough before you posted your reply. (this is the problem with written expression: it loses all nuance).

My apologies to not having parsed your sentiment properly.

If you are right, that is, at a competitive school, the ROTC scholarship winners are not necessarily the top 10% of the admitted students at that university, then it's good news for us. This battalion draws cadets from pretty competitive schools in the region. So I am assuming that there are some top notch candidates in all three dimensions of athletics, scholarship, and leadership, and they are all better candidates than my son, at least as they appear on the application paperwork to be reviewed by the cadet command.

I figure, it's better to aim high but prepare for the worst....
 
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