Don't Ask, Don't Tell fails Senate

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The 14th Amendment.

The 13th too, since that makes slavery unconstitutional.

Perhaps I should have said "another Dred Scott style screw up" as the Supreme Court has been known to commit in the past.


You would think, if the law was SO objectionable, and the rationale you give is constitutionality, the decision would not have been put on hold. I wonder then, why it was. If it's a cut and dry as JAM would have me believe, why the change later in the day?
 
Perhaps I should have said "another Dred Scott style screw up" as the Supreme Court has been known to commit in the past.


You would think, if the law was SO objectionable, and the rationale you give is constitutionality, the decision would not have been put on hold. I wonder then, why it was. If it's a cut and dry as JAM would have me believe, why the change later in the day?

I think most people think that a SCOTUS decision with which they do not agree is a 'Dred Scott style screw up'.

LITS - read the order here:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/general/2010/10/20/10-56634_order.pdf

The stay was so ordered so the court may fully consider the issues presented. The appellee may file an opposition to the stay but they only have until Monday. Since this isn't "life or death" - I would be surprised if the stay was reversed.

Don't read anything more into this than there is. Granting a stay while waiting for the appeal is not unusual. The motion for the stay was only filed on the 20th and was indeed granted that same day.
 
The 13th too, since that makes slavery unconstitutional.

Read it again - the 13th Amendment does NOT make slavery unconstitutional.

It doesn't even outlaw it entirely. In fact, it expressly makes allowances for continuing the practice of slavery.
 
I think most people think that a SCOTUS decision with which they do not agree is a 'Dred Scott style screw up'.

LITS - read the order here:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/general/2010/10/20/10-56634_order.pdf

The stay was so ordered so the court may fully consider the issues presented. The appellee may file an opposition to the stay but they only have until Monday. Since this isn't "life or death" - I would be surprised if the stay was reversed.

Don't read anything more into this than there is. Granting a stay while waiting for the appeal is not unusual. The motion for the stay was only filed on the 20th and was indeed granted that same day.

I thought someone had referenced the First Circuit's ruling in Cook v. Gates (2008). Hence my earlier post.

If this wasn't mentioned, my apologies. I'm too lazy to search through this massive thread.
 
Read it again - the 13th Amendment does NOT make slavery unconstitutional.

.

Yes it does:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Yes, a convicted person may have to perform involuntary servitude. This is not what most people think of when the term "slavery" is tossed about, hence my general reference. I was speaking to the general abolishment of slavery for people not depirved of their liberty by due process of law as a result of committing a crime.

The involuntary servitude portion of Section 1 (not the "slavery" bit) has been challenged with respect to the military draft, which does not violate the Constitution. This is not the "slavery" portion....it seems as though the Supreme Court has harped on the "involuntary servitude" language more than the "slavery" language. I'm not sure of the distinction, but there is one made in the language of the amendment.

In fact, the only way a private citizen (as opposed to the government) can violate another private citizen's Constitutional rights is by forcing them into labor.
 
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Yes it does:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Yes, a convicted person may have to perform involuntary servitude. This is not what most people think of when the term "slavery" is tossed about, hence my general reference. I was speaking to the general abolishment of slavery for people not depirved of their liberty by due process of law as a result of committing a crime.

The 13th specifically allows slavery as punishment for a crime.

Therefore it is not unconstitutional.
 
The 13th specifically allows slavery as punishment for a crime.

Therefore it is not unconstitutional.

Yes, my post specficially mentions that. In that circumstance, involuntary servitude is not unconstitutional.

This does not mean that "slavery" (or involuntary servitude) is constituitional in all cases (and in most cases, it is not), so a blanket statement that "therefore, it is not unconstitutional" is wrong.
 
Yes, my post specficially mentions that. In that circumstance, involuntary servitude is not unconstitutional.

This does not mean that "slavery" (or involuntary servitude) is constituitional in all cases, so a blanket statement that "therefore, it is not unconstitutional" is wrong.

As is a blanket statement that says the 13th "makes slavery unconstitutional."

It doesn't.

Anyway, we're way off track here.
 
As is a blanket statement that says the 13th "makes slavery unconstitutional."

It doesn't.

Fair enough, I change my statement. The 13th Amendment makes slavery and involuntary servitude unconstitutional in the VAST MAJORITY of cases (including the type of slavery Dred Scott was subject to, and which my initial reply was based). It is constitutional for convicts.

Are we all happy? Yes, I think so. I know that I am.
 
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Just to address a slippery slope argument (for CC).
Based on my law class you have three levels of scrutiny in determining if the government restriction is just:
Strict - based on direct language in the Constitution (discrimination race for example)
"Moderate" - based on indirect levels of language (discrimination by gender, for example)
Minimal - minimal impact on rights of individuals (traffic laws, etc.)

What they are basically doing here is classifying orientation into the moderate group. It's not in the constitution, neither is gender equality beyond voting. However, they’ve determined that discrimination based on an inherent trait like gender, race, and “in that spirit” need additional scrutiny. The "abridged" freedoms for the military are deemed legal only up to their point of national security. A military member has full freedom of speech, legally speaking, as long as it doesn't impact national security. The level of security is typically what is debated over time (hence desegregation, gender integration, HAIR REGS!, PIERCINGS!, COMMITMENT, etc.) Hair isn’t discriminatory since safety and the ability to don a mask are important beyond professionalism. The hair requirements do not severely impact a person’s freedom of expression nor does it exclude any person. The argument on religious reasons to grow hair/beards, etc. have already been legally reviewed. I won’t try to articulate the religious part, but it’s the same reason Christian Scientists can’t deny medical treatment to their children. Violates their religious beliefs, but is not an infringement on their rights. There are levels which are deemed ok and the litmus test for the military is its impact on national security. This is VERY broadly applied, we know that. Judge Phillips deemed orientation to be a step too far. It’s more than hair/piercings/etc. since hair is a choice, orientation is not. Another point I just thought of, look at tattoos in the military and the battle between professionalism and freedom of expression. That one swings like a pendulum.

Basically, I’m trying to say this isn’t a slippery slope. The courts always had power over military laws as well. The court of appeals will determine whether minimal or moderate scrutiny applies and make their choice. Simplification on my part, but I think it’s applicable.

Thank you Law 220!
 
I forgot to say "during war time"....in case anyone forget. As the federal govt. plays politics, people are fighting. Good timing. :rolleyes:

Why exactly does "war time" matter? Desegregation was accomplished mainly during the Korean War, and that was quite a bit larger than integration of gays. The "war time" argument is just lazy.
 
Hornet; thanks for the input. I do agree with you. The debate however comes in when the judicial branch steps into the "responsibilities" of the executive and legislative branch. Again; forget the whole DADT matter; that isn't what matters here. If the judicial branch is allowed to legislate in the case of the military; and overturn what the congress and president have put in place; because "THEY" interpret it as unconstitutional, then what is to stop them from declaring the majority of the UCMJ as being unconstitutional.

I understand the levels of scrutiny that the courts will measure upon. And while my examples of hair, piercings, etc... may have been a weak argument, take it further. If a Major (O-4) and an Airman (E-3) want to date, fraternize, etc..., and neither are in each other's chain of command, it would be arguable that the Judicial branch of government could rule forbidding fraternization in such a scenario, would be unconstitutional. Same with an individual wanting to simply wake up one morning and call up their commander and say: "I quit; I'll be moved out of the dorm by noon". Constitutional rights don't and can't have levels of importance. An individual either has a certain right, or they don't. The law only allows restraint of certain rights when the individual has or potentially has within good reason, infringed on another individual's rights. (E.g. arrest, confinement, etc...) And in the case of the military; the restrictions on the individual's rights are understood PRIOR to voluntarily entering the military. This issue was brought up during the vietnam war, because some individuals claimed that they didn't voluntarily enter the military. Therefor, they were being forced to into slavery. But even then, the courts admitted and many others realized that the military must have their OWN judicial system.

Either the military, through the power of 453 house representative, 100 senators, and the president: has the right to their own unique justice system; OR, the UCMJ is to be abolished and military personnel are covered under the traditional judicial system. Our constitution and US Code specifically gives the military; via the congress and the President, the ability to make unique laws, rules, policies, etc... for military members; to ensure order and discipline. Fortunately, it wasn't the Judicial branch that desegregated the military. They did that on their own, through the congress and the president.

That is how all things should be handled in the military. The president has already said that DADT will discontinue. He and the congress are working with the military to work out logistical issues. The review and recommendations from the military are actually due out shortly. They are addressing the problem properly and constitutionally. This is not the place for the judicial branch of government. I've heard the President address this issue. And while I am not the biggest fan of his, I am very proud of him for standing up to his responsibilities. The house of representatives approved the Murphy amendment which would repeal the law within 60 days of the military finishing their study. And while the defense authorization act wasn't completed, the congress showed that they can address this issue constitutionally. Unfortunately, Judge Philips thought it was "HER JOB" to address this issue, and ruled DADT unconstitutional in the LCR vs USA case in september. But still feeling that SHE had the constitutional power, and NOT the congress and president, she issued an injunction against the military and forbidding them to enforce DADT.

This all comes down to the fact that she is overstepping her authority. And it's quite simple. If a person believes that SHE has the constitutional right as a federal judge, to dictate the military judicial system; and NOT the congress and the president; then you must believe that there is no need whatsoever for a military judicial system, including the UCMJ. If that's what a person believe, then fine: ADMIT IT. But you can't have a military judicial system when much of the military law is "Unconstitutional" in the civilian world; and can be reversed or ruled on by someone like Philips.

The best thing is the 9th circuit court of appeals has granted the President his appeal to block Philip's ruling. At least temporarily. The told the appeals court that the military is almost finished with their study on HOW they will reverse the DADT policy so that it's done orderly. (This is the military, order is paramount).They also argued that this should be addressed by CONGRESS and not through the COURTS. GOOD FOR THEM!!!! Of course there are critics who don't know anything other than their emotions, who believe Obama says he wants DADT rescinded, but by appealing to a higher court, he secretly wants to ban gays in the military. These people are freakin idiots.

The decisions made on the "Judicial" issues here go WAY BEYOND DADT. This has nothing to do with DADT. If the judicial branch is allowed to legislate, then it is going to set a president for all military law, the UCMJ, order, and military discipline as a whole. If this judgment stands, then courts will use this case to support any and all grievances with the UCMJ and military policies. And if DADT can be made into a "Constitutional Rights" issue, then so can fraternization, speech, Freedom (Which includes a lot of articles in the UCMJ), etc... This is the slippery slope we're on. It's bad enough that the courts have been allowed to legislate civilian and state's rights; if they're allowed usurp the military justice system, then there is no reason to even have a military judicial system. That will make for one really screwed up military. (Wonder why they call it "Military Justice" if it's not suppose to be designed, implemented, exercised, and enforced differently than the civilian judicial system.
 
Here's an additional question:

If UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. §§ 801-946, and the Manual for Courts-Martial, allows for appeals to go through various military appeals courts; with the final jump out of the military system for such cases resulting in death, life, etc... being the "Supreme Court" of the United States; why is it that federal district courts aren't involved in the system? Or Federal district appeals courts? Probably because the military judicial system is seen as a unique judicial system to itself. And that the appeals process works best through the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and then through to the Supreme Court. So why again is someone like Judge Phillips getting involved?

Guess we need to just get rid of the UCMJ. Consider the military their own state. Allow 3 representatives, 2 senators, and give all military members EOC and all other equal rights. Sounds fair to me.
 
Why exactly does "war time" matter? Desegregation was accomplished mainly during the Korean War, and that was quite a bit larger than integration of gays. The "war time" argument is just lazy.

SteveHolt, I assume you have an idea of a finite budget, manpower and priorities.

Why doesn't the Army build a megatron to fight Zoomzimmmbah and the Hacky Flacks in outer space? Because they have neither the TIME (deployments) nor the budget (SEE: Budget Cuts) to devote people to it.

If I have small Army offices in the Pentagon saying they can't send people to a once-a-week panel because too many people are deployed and they're understaffed...I assume they can't "gay-proof" the Army at this time either.

Of course, if you're considering the action in Korea (we're still there) as the same as two wars that have taken a "bit" longer than Korea, be my guest and make that argument.

I assume there was planning for desegregation...as well.

It would seem ignore the current state of a majority of the forces may not be "lazy"....just foolish.
 
If I have small Army offices in the Pentagon saying they can't send people to a once-a-week panel because too many people are deployed and they're understaffed...I assume they can't "gay-proof" the Army at this time either.

What exactly are you proofing from? Being forced to acknowledge that someone is gay?
 
Has nothing to do with identifying who is gay, but everything to do with all of that other work....you know, the part that they've paid millions and millions for...that entire joint review from the services and OSD.
 
If the judicial branch is allowed to legislate in the case of the military; and overturn what the congress and president have put in place; because "THEY" interpret it as unconstitutional, then what is to stop them from declaring the majority of the UCMJ as being unconstitutional.

Nothing.

Other than the Executive Branch having the power to appoint Judges, and the Senate having the power to confirm them, nothing at all.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/21/gates.dont.ask.dont.tell/index.html?hpt=T2

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has raised the level at which gay and lesbian troops can be discharged under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, ordering that it only be done by the secretaries of the Army, Navy and Air Force, a senior Defense Department attorney said Thursday.
In addition, the senior defense attorney hinted that the Pentagon is preparing for the possibility that the policy banning openly homosexual soldiers could change through the U.S. courts.....................
read on....
 
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