USMA Separation

I was a member of the class of 2012. On Dec. 3rd, I was in a buddy's room when his company conducted a Friday night health and welfare inspection. "Spice" was found in the room. The MPs were quickly contacted and my friend and I were separated. That night, I openly addmitted to using spice occasionaly on weekends. I felt taking every moral high-groud, being honest, and accepting my responsibility was the best route, even if it lead to a hefty punishment, I honestly thought I could recover from this incident, but I was mislead. After four long months, I recieved my final decision...I was separated from the academy and recommended a General under honorable conditions discharge, and was recommended recoupment of funds of somewhere around $130K for 2.5 years of credits. I pleaded for service time, but was seen as the weakest link of the organization and would not be given the honor of being an enlisted soldier. This was my first offense at the academy. I have always been in decent military and academic standing, and have always maintained my athletic and physical ability. I believe I had a great case in February with a majority of my teacher's support and a large amount of cadet's support. I know what I was doing was wrong and not allowed in the service. In fact, it is a very large issue in the armed forces and people need to be aware that there is zero-tolleration for future leaders.
I almost was brought up on honor for using a drug that is used with intent to deceive a normal urinalysis. This is when i knew they were going to nail me.
There have been several Cadets this last year that have been separated from the academy for the use and possesion of this legal (civilian) substance.
While I was still at the academy, I was enrolled in ASAP, Army Substance Abuse Program, and it killed me to be associated with the same people who have recieved DUI's, Underage drinking, DWIs, Assualt, Sexual Assault, and Sexual Harrassment (all alcohol related). Yes, I would have had a better chance staying at the academy if I (a 20 year old male) was underage drinking and recieved a DUI. yes, I would have gotten in a lot of trouble, but not as much as admitting to having used spice..
I was told when I left that I would have to wait 2-6 months to hear from a random officer to discuss a possible AR-15 and what the outcome of my case will be (recoupment or service). As you can imagine, I do not plan on waiting in limbo for the next 6 months..if that. I have applied to several schools and jobs, and have only avoided the question "am i a veteran?"
When asked, am I a veteran? What do i say? I still do not have my DD214.
I am not looking for benefits (not why i went to the academy or joined the armed forces). I soley just want to begin moving forward again. If I must serve, i'm ready, if they want me to pay...i will have to figure something out about that..no idea.
I would contact USMA, but Trial defense services at West Point, can't help me. I also have talked to a Veterans Service Officer along with the Illinois Department of Veterans' Affairs and have had no luck.
Thank you for your time

If you don't mind me asking, if it's not for benefits then why do you wish to know if you are considered a veteran?

Because I do not want to lie on FASFA, Job applications, and School applications. I don't care to look into "Does a Cadet qualify for benefits?" instead want to find out, "Does a cadet qualify as a veteran?"

plus..with a general under honorable, I don't even know what benefits i would qualify for if i did.

Ex-Cadet12 said:

Because I do not want to lie on FASFA, Job applications, and School applications. I don't care to look into "Does a Cadet qualify for benefits?" instead want to find out, "Does a cadet qualify as a veteran?"

plus..with a general under honorable, I don't even know what benefits i would qualify for if i did.

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Thanks, I was simply curious to know.

I think you have learned a very valuable lesson here. Spice is very bad stuff, you could have suffered serious medical complications. Not only that, but this thing will will have serious implications for you down the road.

RGK

Ex-Cadet12 said:

Because I do not want to lie on FASFA, Job applications, and School applications. I don't care to look into "Does a Cadet qualify for benefits?" instead want to find out, "Does a cadet qualify as a veteran?"

plus..with a general under honorable, I don't even know what benefits i would qualify for if i did.

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You need a DD-214 in order to answer the question on FAFSA that you are a veteran. If you complete the FAFSA and answer yes, the college will request that you provide them with a copy of your DD-214.

I am not sure why you do not have one. Is this pending the completion of the investigation?

Ex-Cadet12, it made me very sad to read this. What a tough lesson to have to learn the hard way. I sure hope any class of 2015 new cadets will read your OP and really take it to heart.

Thanks for sharing and best wishes for your future.

Best wishes to you in the future. Everyone at the Academy knows the severe consequences of using drugs. You learned a hard life lesson - you made a choice and now you have to suffer the consequences. Again - I hope you can overcome this and live a happy and productive life. Thanks for sharing your story with those of us in the future Class of 2015

Ex-Cadet12 said:

There have been several Cadets this last year that have been separated from the academy for the use and possesion[sic] of this legal (civilian) substance.

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Protip: Spice has been illegal since March of this year. The DEA used their emergency powers to classify several of the synthetic canabinoids as a Schedule I drug while legislation is being pushed through Congress.

It doesn't really matter that it was legal in the civilian world when your bros did it before then either. Somewhere along in their chain of command was a policy letter with some fancy legal language that said, "Don't do spice". Also, the ASAP regulation (AR 600-85) had a rapid action revision back on 2 Dec 09 that included language on synthetic canibanoids under the same provision that prohibits huffing canned air.

So saying that it was legal in the civilian world is no excuse or mitigating factor.

TheWestExit said:

Protip: Spice has been illegal since March of this year. The DEA used their emergency powers to classify several of the synthetic canabinoids as a Schedule I drug while legislation is being pushed through Congress.

It doesn't really matter that it was legal in the civilian world when your bros did it before then either. Somewhere along in their chain of command was a policy letter with some fancy legal language that said, "Don't do spice". Also, the ASAP regulation (AR 600-85) had a rapid action revision back on 2 Dec 09 that included language on synthetic canibanoids under the same provision that prohibits huffing canned air.

So saying that it was legal in the civilian world is no excuse or mitigating factor.

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Ok, hotshot, before using your first post to flame this kid you might want to slow your roll a bit and consider a few things...

1. This kid's post was clearly a mea culpa. He admitted he was wrong and took his lumps. That shows a heap of integrity.

2. By your own admission, Spice was declared illegal in March of 2011. He was caught in December of 2010. You do the math. Is there a policy letter? Yup. He violated a regulation. He admitted as much. At the time, though, he is right in saying he did not break any laws. Unlike the cadets who commit DWIs and are retained...

3. It's generally poor form to make the first thing you say on a forum an insult or lecture.

scoutpilot said:

Ok, hotshot, before using your first post to flame this kid you might want to slow your roll a bit and consider a few things...

1. This kid's post was clearly a mea culpa. He admitted he was wrong and took his lumps. That shows a heap of integrity.

2. By your own admission, Spice was declared illegal in March of 2011. He was caught in December of 2010. You do the math. Is there a policy letter? Yup. He violated a regulation. He admitted as much. At the time, though, he is right in saying he did not break any laws. Unlike the cadets who commit DWIs and are retained...

3. It's generally poor form to make the first thing you say on a forum an insult or lecture.

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Scout, Since I first saw this post I was waiting for your take on the situation and as always you eloquently and intelligently make your point.

What I didn't see (from anyone) was an answer to his question regarding his veteran status. Is he considered a vet after his separation? I read somewhere that cadets are considered "active but non-deployable". Does that give veteran status?

Yes, separated cadets are considered veterans. I answered this back on post#6. He needs his DD-214.
Separated cadets receive a DD-214. Normally they receive this when they leave the Academy. The DD-214 has the type of discharge on it and is a legal document.

I am puzzled as to why he has not received a DD-214. One guess (purely speculation) is that it's held up while the investigation is completed and they confirm what type of discharge he receives.

I would suggest that if he has not already done so, he consult with an attorney who has expertise is military matters.

Just_A_Mom said:

Yes, separated cadets are considered veterans. I answered this back on post#6. He needs his DD-214.
Separated cadets receive a DD-214. Normally they receive this when they leave the Academy. The DD-214 has the type of discharge on it and is a legal document.

I am puzzled as to why he has not received a DD-214. One guess (purely speculation) is that it's held up while the investigation is completed and they confirm what type of discharge he receives.

I would suggest that if he has not already done so, he consult with an attorney who has expertise is military matters.

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Thank you!

Some good guidance here. We can see that you are very sorry for your mistake and know not to ever go near that road again.

Okay, follow these peoples guidance and get your DD214 -probably with some legal help-should do it anyway to get a little piece of mind.

We can also see that you are going forward with your life to do good things and expect that you will.

By posting your mistake you have already let others know how much trouble one can have for doing a wrong thing. For this shows great integrity and courage to tell your story.

I too wish that these circumstances did not happen for you but now turn this negative into a positive and push to achieve great things. Best of Luck!

The detrimental effects of Spice are becoming more apparent to researchers, as well as those who are witness to the behavior of users. Its no wonder that the military took the lead and banned this substance before too many more were harmed.

This report (released yesterday) from the Naval Medical Center in San Diego goes into a little more detail about the mids who were hospitalized after the Spice headlines at USNA a few months ago.

New-Onset Psychosis Linked to Synthetic Marijuana Use

May 16, 2011
By: M. ALEXANDER OTTO, Internal Medicine News Digital Network

HONOLULU – Synthetic marijuana, known as "spice," appears to have induced psychosis in 10 young service members in the U.S. Naval Academy, according to a case series from the Naval Medical Center in San Diego.

"These are people who never had psychosis. They were so disorganized, so out of it, we had to lock them up [on our ward]. It’s pretty scary," Dr. Donald Hurst, lead investigator on the study, reported at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

Psychotic symptoms resolved within 8 days in seven patients. One of those patients had a past diagnosis of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder; the others had no psychiatric histories. Most had been daily users for weeks, months, or up to a year.

The remaining three patients still suffer lingering paranoid delusions and dysthymia after 5 months. One has a history of substance abuse and a family history of schizophrenia and had been using spice daily for a year and a half; another has a history of depression and had been using spice daily for a month. The third patient, however, has no personal or family psychiatric history and had used spice about 20 times in two months.

The men were in their early 20s. They were each hospitalized 6-10 days. Some had used alcohol, marijuana, or both, with spice. It’s unknown how much the men used during each session.

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http://www.internalmedicinenews.com...ed-to-synthetic-marijuana-use/e9572df1c9.html

Thank you all for the information and support. I hope my case can continue to inform new cadets and hopefully future officers about this substance and its ramifications. Once I recieve my DD214, I will post again what it says and what the final outcome of my case was to help any parent or future cadet sepearated from the academy. Yes, my entire life has been flipped around and I no longer have the next 10 years planned for me, but it was easy to land on my feet. Parents, there isn't much help you can do for your son or daughter if they are in trouble at an academy (unless you are a grad or O5 or higher), but support them. Be there for them and let them know that no matter what, "do your best and try your hardest". This mentality made it easier for me to keep my head up while being outprocessed. I did everything in my power to stay at the academy, but it wasn't enough (it almost came to me walking to the Supe's door and talking to him as a man (that is what point I was at)). The hardest part for a cadet leaving the academy is all of the third and fourth order effects. My grandma still tears up when I talk about it. It was hard informing teachers, family, and friends, but they were all sympethetic and exactly how you think people will react that care about you is how they will. New Cadets, if the academy doesn't work out for you, it isn't the end of the world. The academy is clearly not made for everyone and the life style needed for the armed services is also not for everyone. I want to use my expereince to show that even if tough times, it is important to continue moving forward with your momentum and with doing your best, there is no room for regret or looking back and saying "what if". I made sure to use my story to protect my friends, classmates, peers, and subordinates at the academy as I am doing so for you all.
Again, thank you for your time and consideration.
God Bless

ExCadet, my compliments to you on recognizing your mistake and error in judgment, and on taking the "harder right" through the process. We all make stupid mistakes. It's unfortunate that yours had the consequences it did for you, but it's also evident that USMA did its character-building. Thank you for helping those behind you to follow a straighter path.

I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your post and that I am sure that it is doing some good. I can tell you for a fact that many of the rising Yuks have read your post and are taking lessons from it. Thank you for your honesty and I wish you all the best in life.

Warnings not heeded

I type this with a heavy heart, still Cadets have not heeded your warning Ex-Cadet12... If my Cadet is discharged, how long will he be phyically at West Point, how fast did you leave the post, did you work details until your discharge?

toast said:

I type this with a heavy heart, still Cadets have not heeded your warning Ex-Cadet12... If my Cadet is discharged, how long will he be phyically at West Point, how fast did you leave the post, did you work details until your discharge?

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Oh, toast, I was sad to read your post. I suggest you PM buff81 and possibly she can give you some information. Hang in there.