LDAC

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DougBetsy

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How is LDAC scheduled?

I understand that the program is 4 or 5 weeks long. So, is it held twice each summer? Or are they able to squeeze in 3 sessions?

When do the sessions begin? Is there a set schedule like the third Monday of May, 4th Monday of June, etc?

Thanks.
 
There are usually around 12 to 14 regiments each summer. Last summer they ran two regiments concurrently and they flip flop ed training sites in a two day period (to the best of my knowledge). Our first cadets shipped 14 June and our last group shipped 9 July and finished up 6 August.

Not sure why you are asking. Typically what we do here is ask the cadets if they have a preference or conflict. We will also front load the cadets that may have issues with staying in shape (there are some, and we know who they are) and we may push off the stronger cadets to the later regiments. We may even go so far as to look at when night land nav is and send our weeker NLNers when the illumination is better.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Wow, thanks, clarksonarmy. That's very interesting.

I didn't realize the cadre or cadet were consulted. I pictured it as a random assignment and the cadet got what he got, like it or not. It's a relief to know conflicts and preferences are considered. (Likewise for strengths and weaknesses.)

I'm curious due to some talk about a significant family reunion during Son's LDAC summer. It's not urgent and the trip would carry-on without him. I was just wondering about how the assignment is made. Thanks.
 
Assignment is made by the Battalion, so he should let his ROTC instructor know if he has a preference. I know at Clarkson chances are good we could accomodate a cadet that has a family obligation over the summer.
 
This Summer the LDAC Experience is 29 days long for the cadets. There are 14 regiments with 7 start dates staggered 4 days apart.

The training is not very difficult. Most cadets make it through and receive camp credit. The 2 main causes for cadets being dismissed are APFT failure and medical issues.
 
I read online (facebook group for Ldac) that 47% of 1st reg. failed land navigation, I'm not quite sure why they did. Perhaps they were relying on what their buddies told them and maybe the course changed, but i am not sure. this is speculation. The hardest part of ldac with the most failure rate I'd agree is with the apft (pushup form). I'm not sure how "hard" the graders are there, but it seems to me a lot of people have trouble with that.
 
Curious, if they bust LDAC and are on scholarship, do they lose the scholarship?

What is the percentage of cadets that are awarded LDAC? Does every rising sr cadet go?

Not trying to be antagonistic, but how can they afford to send everyone, is it due to the fact that they go rising sr. yr. instead of rising jr?

Yes, I am an AFROTC Mom, but I have DS 2 coming up for 16 and he would rather eat his skin than join the AF, but Army and CID is something he is interested in. I don't want to be hit upside the cranium as a parent of a C200 to find out we now have to figure out how to pay for his last 2 yrs.
 
This is slightly off-topic, but I can't find a better place to write this --

LDAC appears to me to be the single most important part of a cadets placement on the Order of Merit List (OML), which is a points based rank ordering from #1 to #5000, which determines, to a great extent, choice in Branch placement.

Here is the FY2011 weighted selection criteria (the points that compose the OML):

I have put categories called "Minimum Score" and "Maximum Score" to more accurately identify the range of scores.

Evaluation Category ../.. Min ../.. Max ../.. Pts. Cadet Controls
GPA ../.. 25 ../.. 40 ../.. 15
LDAC TAC Eval ../.. 0 ../.. 11.25 ../.. 11.25
LDAC Performan ../.. 0 ../.. 6.75 ../.. 6.75
LDAC Land Navi ../.. 0 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 4.5
LDAC APFT min ../.. 5.67 ../.. 9.45 ../.. 3.78
PMS MSIII CER ../.. 3 ../.. 6.75 ../.. 3.75
PMS OML ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
PMS Potential ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
PMS ECs ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
Language/Cultural ../.. 0 ../.. 2.25 ../.. 2.25
On-Campus Sports ../.. 0 ../.. 1.5 ../.. 1.5
APFT Campus Spr ../.. 1.42 ../.. 2.36 ../.. 0.944
APFT Campus Fall ../.. 1.01 ../.. 1.69 ../.. 0.676

Now, if you bear with me, there is a practical reason to look at the above list of points (which total to 100). Every cadet has X hours in a week to devote to study, drilling, non-ROTC community involvement, Duties within the Unit, etc. The question is this: Given the supreme importance of the OML in AD and Branch assignment, where should a cadet invest their hours to attain the highest OML?

Should a cadet spend an extra hour a week becoming a master of land navigation? Or running? On studies? Or volunteering within the Unit? Going overseas for six weeks to pick up another language? My first impression in reviewing what composes the OML is that LDAC is the single most important four weeks of a cadet's life, and the cumulative scoring while at LDAC is much more important than even GPA. I say this because though GPA is 40 of the 100 points, most colleges won't keep a student with under 2.5 GPA, which means all the cadets are really in a range from 2.5 to 4.0, a range of 15 points on the OML.

I need help, as an outsider to the system, understanding really what are the "minimum" scores awarded in the 13 categories of evaluation. I guessed on almost all except GPA. For example, in a post above somebody said a certain group at LDAC almost all failed the Land Navigation test. Does that mean they received 0 out of 4.5 possible points? If so, doesn't that have the same effect on the OML score as a reduction in GPA from 3.5 to 3.05?

I have always heard that GPA is the single most imporant part of OML, yet when I look at the above list, it looks to me like the cadet can control about 15 points of GPA, and about 25 points of LDAC. So which really is more important to the cadet trying to decide where the spend his/her time?
 
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Help me with this

dunninla said:
This is slightly off-topic, but I can't find a better place to write this --

LDAC appears to me to be the single most important part of a cadets placement on the Order of Merit List (OML), which is a points based rank ordering from #1 to #5000, which determines, to a great extent, choice in Branch placement.

Here is the FY2011 weighted selection criteria (the points that compose the OML):

I have put categories called "Minimum Score" and "Maximum Score" to more accurately identify the range of scores.

Evaluation Category ../.. Min ../.. Max ../.. Pts. Cadet Controls
GPA ../.. 25 ../.. 40 ../.. 15
LDAC TAC Eval ../.. 0 ../.. 11.25 ../.. 11.25
LDAC Performan ../.. 0 ../.. 6.75 ../.. 6.75
LDAC Land Navi ../.. 0 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 4.5
LDAC APFT min ../.. 5.67 ../.. 9.45 ../.. 3.78
PMS MSIII CER ../.. 3 ../.. 6.75 ../.. 3.75
PMS OML ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
PMS Potential ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
PMS ECs ../.. 1 ../.. 4.5 ../.. 3.5
Language/Cultural ../.. 0 ../.. 2.25 ../.. 2.25
On-Campus Sports ../.. 0 ../.. 1.5 ../.. 1.5
APFT Campus Spr ../.. 1.42 ../.. 2.36 ../.. 0.944
APFT Campus Fall ../.. 1.01 ../.. 1.69 ../.. 0.676

Now, if you bear with me, there is a practical reason to look at the above list of points (which total to 100). Every cadet has X hours in a week to devote to study, drilling, non-ROTC community involvement, Duties within the Unit, etc. The question is this: Given the supreme importance of the OML in AD and Branch assignment, where should a cadet invest their hours to attain the highest OML?

Should a cadet spend an extra hour a week becoming a master of land navigation? Or running? On studies? Or volunteering within the Unit? Going overseas for six weeks to pick up another language? My first impression in reviewing what composes the OML is that LDAC is the single most important four weeks of a cadet's life, and the cumulative scoring while at LDAC is much more important than even GPA. I say this because though GPA is 40 of the 100 points, most colleges won't keep a student with under 2.5 GPA, which means all the cadets are really in a range from 2.5 to 4.0, a range of 15 points on the OML.

I need help, as an outsider to the system, understanding really what are the "minimum" scores awarded in the 13 categories of evaluation. I guessed on almost all except GPA. For example, in a post above somebody said a certain group at LDAC almost all failed the Land Navigation test. Does that mean they received 0 out of 4.5 possible points? If so, doesn't that have the same effect on the OML score as a reduction in GPA from 3.5 to 3.05?

I have always heard that GPA is the single most imporant part of OML, yet when I look at the above list, it looks to me like the cadet can control about 15 points of GPA, and about 25 points of LDAC. So which really is more important to the cadet trying to decide where the spend his/her time?
Click to expand...

Which of these activities, if any, do the points come based on a group you are assigned to at LDAC or are they all individual effort?

Also if reading correctly it looks like APFT scores count from campus and LDAC so these are essentially in the equation twice?
 
dunninla said:
So which really is more important to the cadet trying to decide where the spend his/her time?
Click to expand...

The system was designed to produce balanced officers, balancing Leadership, Academic and Athletic abilities. So it was designed so there is not one area to most devote your time/energy.

Performance at LDAC is a reflection of how well you have learned from your first 3 yrs in ROTC, its a final exam of sorts.

As far as GPA;
The average GPA on the 2011 OLM was 3.1
Average RC GPA was 2.9
The average Active Duty GPA was 3.24
The average DMG (top 20%) was 3.60
The average AD top 10% was 3.71
(pretty easy to see where you fit in)

For targets, I told my son, if you want to go AD get a 3.25, if you want your field of choice have a 3.5+ (targets, not absolutes), then do well at the rest.
On the OLM points are points, doesn't matter where you get'em
 
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gojack said:
On the OML, points are points, doesn't matter where you get'em
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was trying to get at.

If spending an extra hour per week on Land Navigation insures a cadet will score 4.5 points at LDAC, vs. no additional preparation gets him/her 2 points at LDAC, a delta of 2.5 OML points, that 1 hour per week is worth the equivalent of a GPA jump from 3.25 to 3.5. You see the issue -- WHERE would a cadet be advised to spend that extra hour each week -- things measured at LDAC, or things measured in the classroom? It doesn't look like school work to me. An extra hour per week on school work does not make a GPA go from 3.25 to 3.5.

P.S. the site where I found the OML breakdown is this: http://www.career-satisfaction.army.mil/pdfs/Order_of_Merit_Score_Calculations.pdf

Let's look at it from the perspective of an obsessive student who spends six hours per day (including weekends) outside of the classroom in concentrated study in order to maintain a 3.8 GPA. What IF said student, due to the rigors of classwork and study, doesn't have many hours left in the week to participate in Ranger Challenge, or Color Guard, or mentoring other students in their studies, or conditioning, or volunteering within the Unit? Oh, but GPA is the single most important part of the OML you say... to which I say -- I don't think so. this cadet receives 38 points on the OML for GPA, compared to another cadet who scores 32 points with a 3.2 GPA... but the 3.2 cadet is in Ranger Challenge, Color Guard, volunteers in the Unit, is extremely well prepped for LDAC such that he/she scores 22 out of 25 in LDAC, while the obsessive student scores 15 out of 25 at LDAC. In this case, a high GPA does not make up for lack of activity within the Unit, or lack of sufficient preparation in military skills measured at LDAC. In this case I describe, the student with 3.2 GPA has a higher OML than the one with 3.8, based ONLY on LDAC performance, not counting the PMS evals, etc.

Though I am not in Operations Research (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once), this looks to me like an optimization problem, in which GPA plays a much lesser role than I typically see described on this forum. It looks from the outside like a little more "gung ho" and a little less library time is the way to maximize the OML, given a limited amount of hours in each cadet's day.

just one person's impression :)
 
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DougBetsy said:
How is LDAC scheduled?

I understand that the program is 4 or 5 weeks long. So, is it held twice each summer? Or are they able to squeeze in 3 sessions?

When do the sessions begin? Is there a set schedule like the third Monday of May, 4th Monday of June, etc?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Here is a link to the official LDAC website: "Operation Warrior Forge".
It will give you a good idea of what LDAC is all about.

http://warriorforge.wordpress.com/
 
Pima said:
Curious, if they bust LDAC and are on scholarship, do they lose the scholarship?

What is the percentage of cadets that are awarded LDAC? Does every rising sr cadet go?

Not trying to be antagonistic, but how can they afford to send everyone, is it due to the fact that they go rising sr. yr. instead of rising jr?

Yes, I am an AFROTC Mom, but I have DS 2 coming up for 16 and he would rather eat his skin than join the AF, but Army and CID is something he is interested in. I don't want to be hit upside the cranium as a parent of a C200 to find out we now have to figure out how to pay for his last 2 yrs.
Click to expand...

Everyone goes, if they plan on commissioning. By their junior year, all AROTC cadets have contracted and taken an oath. So if they don't pass at LDAC, the Army gets its money back either by check or enlisted service. Clarkson and Marist probably have more back door number crunching explanations than I.
 
dunninla ,

More detailed OLM stuff here

Looks like you are well on your way to maxing the OLM, planning ahead is the way there. A little word of caution, practicing landnav is highly beneficial to a point, but it's not something that is 'perfected', it's an inexact science.

My advice,
-Most important - stay out of trouble.
-Be early, stay late, participate.
-Do above average at EVERYTHING (shoot for top 1/3rd to top 1/4)

If you do those three things you will be a DMG at graduation.
 
-Bull- said:
Everyone goes, if they plan on commissioning. By their junior year, all AROTC cadets have contracted and taken an oath. So if they don't pass at LDAC, the Army gets its money back either by check or enlisted service. Clarkson and Marist probably have more back door number crunching explanations than I.
Click to expand...

Nearly everyone graduates from LDAC - unless you are a total dirtbag. The grade you get is either E, S or N. If you fail a required course - like land nav; they give you an opportunity to redo and pass.
IMO there is no excuse for failing the AFPT at LDAC - save injury or illness. (see 'dirtbag' comment)

I have *heard* that if you get an "E" and want active duty, you will most likely get it. I have also *heard* that if you get an "N" you risk not getting Active duty.
All commissioned cadets who do not get AD will commission into the Reserves or Guard and complete their commitment there.

LDAC is the SINGLE most significant event a cadet undergoes toward the OML. It is an event that is 4 weeks long. GPA occurs over 3 years.

If you are injured, sick and can't complete LDAC you have another chance after your senior year graduation. Each year a number of cadets at LDAC will commission immediately after the graduation ceremony.

IMO - AROTC cadets should concentrate on grades, APFT and FTX training. In the junior year ROTC battalions will concentrate on preparation for LDAC - including land navigation. Cadets have every opportunity to master these skills and should concentrate on such their junior year. Possessing excellent land navigation skills is far more important than how many volunteer hours one has.
 
There are more statistics going on then in my Stats class from college.

GPA is the most significant part of the OML. The reason is that it is a straight 40% of the overall OML.

LDAC is important but it is broken down into so many different areas that you can score well in some and not in others and still do fine. While you may get an overall "S" you may have several dimensional "E"s that count toward your score.

GPA is what it is...your GPA, it is the single item that counts the most.

Trust me, if a cadet has a 3.2 GPA and an "E" at LDAC and another cadet has a 3.7 GPA and a "S" with several dimensional "E"s, the 3.7 cadet will be much higher on the OML.

Some of you have current cadets and some have new cadets just starting this Fall. Believe me, things don't always shake out as planned.

My older son is currently at LDAC, I think in a way we and him were lucky, we never read any sites like this or did much research at all other then the fact that this is what he wanted to do. We actually did not even find out there was a OML until after he was awarded his scholarship, yes he went in very blind to all things ROTC. I truly believe that this played in his favor, he learned the system as he went along. This did not hurt him in any way, he is #1 in his ROTC class, has gone to Airborne, will be going to CTLT with the 82nd Airborne in Ft. Bragg right after LDAC. You can take this advice for what it is worth, don't have your kids do too much research and get overloaded or stressed out, that's the worst thing you can do. The cadre is very good at teaching everything they will need to know.

I agree, do not over do land nav, learn as you go, every course is different and they will teach the skills as they progress, don't pick up bad habits trying to get ahead of the game, it will hurt you in the end.

I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is don't over think it.

It is very interesting talking to my older son about where everyone is in the battalion after 3 years. There were some cadets that were highly regarded and expected to do very well, lets just say they didn't, the reverse is true as well, some started slow and are now in the top of the class. College has a funny way of hitting kids square in the face, all the planning in the world is not going to help, it's what each individual does when they get there.

My younger son will be a new cadet this Fall at the same school my older son attends, he asked his older brother if he had any advice. His advice was work out a lot over the summer, other then that enjoy yourself because we'll teach you everything you need when you start.
 
I thought I'd mention one thing about LDAC itself.

Don't get to caught up training for specific things, of course you should be good with Land Nav and all your basics.

LDAC can be very subjective in regard to grading. You may spend a great deal of time working on your OPORDS and Tactical skills only to have a grader that is more concerned with Garrison life. Of course if you spend all your time prepping for Garrison, the grader may be looking at OPORDS with a microscope.

In short you have no way of knowing what will be the most important thing the graders are looking for. Just work on everything equally and don't stress out.
 
dunninla said:
Exactly what I was trying to get at.

If spending an extra hour per week on Land Navigation insures a cadet will score 4.5 points at LDAC
Click to expand...

Here's the trouble with LandNav. It's LandNav. You can know how to do it and still mess it up... The other thing is that first Reg failed it. rumor has it by the time the later Regs go to LandNav, there are literally paths from point to point...

However, I do agree with you about balancing other activities and your GPA. If I want to have a life and enjoy college and other extra curriculars(which do help with OML), I have to be ok with a lower GPA. I go to one of the top Private shcools in the nation and classes are hard. My GPA affects my OML the exact same as the GPA of the local community college does for a kid that goes there for 2 years first. It's how the system works. It happens.
 
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Not paying attention seems to be the biggest reason people don't do well in certain areas. Enjoy everything now because you're about to be blown away with information and you'll need to learn all of it. You don't want to blow away an entire year because you think you have 3 years to learn it all.
 
Cadets that perform below standard at LDAC can be sent home with 3 different characterizations:

N Rating (Needs Improvement) with Camp Credit
No Camp Credit; Recommendation for cadet return next year
No Camp Credit; Recommendation for disenrollment

As you can tell by the limited options for consequences, messing up at LDAC is a big deal.

Pima said:
Curious, if they bust LDAC and are on scholarship, do they lose the scholarship?

What is the percentage of cadets that are awarded LDAC? Does every rising sr cadet go?

Not trying to be antagonistic, but how can they afford to send everyone, is it due to the fact that they go rising sr. yr. instead of rising jr?

Yes, I am an AFROTC Mom, but I have DS 2 coming up for 16 and he would rather eat his skin than join the AF, but Army and CID is something he is interested in. I don't want to be hit upside the cranium as a parent of a C200 to find out we now have to figure out how to pay for his last 2 yrs.
Click to expand...
 
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