And it isn't as if the Air Force is trying to proselytize anybody or teach Christianity. The class is designed to help these missile officers understand what they would be doing, and why it would be moral to "turn the key." Some religions have differing standards of morality. Some are anti-war. Should the US, in an effort not to step on any religion's or person's moral worldviews, stop the nuclear program, or go ahead and get rid of the military all together?
In an effort to serve all faiths, we try to introduce none in our briefings and our lectures,” Smith told Fox News Radio. “Once we heard there were concerns, we looked at the course and said we could do better.”
Smith said the inclusion of the Bible verses was an “inappropriate approach” in a “pluralistic society.
This training program makes no sense. If you read sprog's first post, he states he is atheist, so how is the introduction of bible stories from the old and new testament going to influence a non-Christian believer?
In this case- This training makes perfect sense. How can you talk to military members about the ethical implications of killing without at least acknowledging that one of the fundamental laws of the Christian and Jewish faiths state: "Thou shalt not kill"?
For you they exist outside religion.
But a training course on the ethics of killing given to a military audience which by any calculation is at least half christian - yet doesn't acknowledge that the source of those members ethical dimma really is what makes no sense.
And a reasonible way to deal with the ethical dilemmas associated by moslem soldiers or buddhist soldiers is not to deny that they have ethical contradictions, it is to reconcile what their basic traditions and beliefs are with the justifications that allow them to function. It makes no sense to just pretend that those ethical contradictions don't exist because someone else doesn't share them.
And- acknowledging that the population or the military members you are supposed to be teaching is not prohibited by the 1st Amendment.
Luigi59 said:Morality and ethics exist outside of religion.
For you they exist outside religion.
Luigi59 said:Incorrect assumption on your part, I have stated no position of my own about any religious affiliation, denomination, participation or adherence that I may or may not have. You seem to think that if someone recognizes that there should be a separation of the Govt and the Christian Church that they must be atheist or agnostic. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
I can, however, logically deduct that morality and ethics CAN and DO exist outside of any religion, including Christianity.
Bruno, you bring up some great points that I totally forgot about. (I've been retired for 12 years now). When I went to North Africa in the 80's and I went to the middle east during and after gulf war I in the early-mid 90's, I was in fact given information about the muslim religion. The military wasn't trying to convert me to being a muslim. They were trying to educate me on the people of the region. Both civilians and "Possibly" even my enemies.
Whether Luigi or anyone else wants to admit it, we are a product of our society, and our country and our laws are indeed based on Judeo-Christian backgrounds. I never said it was solely FOUNDED on those principles; but that there is indeed a judeo-christian background. When the overwhelming majority of a country's people profess to be a particular religious background/belief, the morals, values, ethics, etc... of that society will in fact be influenced by those backgrounds/beliefs. If not, you'd probably have your women walking 5 paces behind you; cutting off the hands of thieves; throwing people off of towers for punishment against crimes; along with other types of laws like "Sharia Law". Point is; our country is predominantly christian, and our beliefs, laws, morals, values, etc... have much of their roots from that background. Even an atheist will/would be influenced by this background as they were growing up. So yes, an atheist can be moral, but you don't design your beliefs, morals, values, etc... all in one day. It's started when you are born. You are a product of your environment. You may alter some of your beliefs and values over time, but they will still have their foundation.
The class in question is/was designed to teach/educate those who may have a moral conflict with performing such military duties. There very well may be some who have no moral conflicts at all. "Kill them all, and let god sort them out" mentality. In those cases, such a class shouldn't affect or offend them at all. Maybe a muslim missile officer in the U.S. air force believes he's doing God's will, and therefor it's totally fine to blow up someone with a nuke. Point is: If anyone in the U.S. Air Force has any moral conflicts with potentially killing other people, (And they haven't already claimed to be a conscientious objector and gotten out by now), then those morals that they have that are conflicting came from society. Sorry, that's where they came from. You can't learn and develop morals independently. It's not possible. You can change, alter, etc... your beliefs over time; but the premise of your values, morals, etc... come from your existence in your society. And our society and it's values, morals, beliefs, laws, etc... have been effected to where they are, from a Judeo-Christian background of people.
Sorry if someone doesn't like that answer. They can rationalize it and believe it's not true. But it is true. Not because I say so, but because that is the formation and founding of our country. Religious freedom my Christian Sects in Europe was actually one of the main beginnings and influences in the new land. And while you may not consider yourself a puritan, amish, protestant, catholic, mormon, Jewish, Jehovah Witness, Assembly of God, or any other religion that believes in the principles of the Old Testament and/or Jesus Christ and the New Testament; the fact remains that you have indeed grown up and have been Socialized based on those morals and values. Not that you've been indoctrinated in those religions, but into their social norms. Again, this is fact, whether you want to agree or not. Just like if you were born and raised in China among budhists or in Saudi Arabia among muslims. You will have been socialized into their morals, norms, beliefs, etc...
So I agree that you can not understand Where you are, or where you're going, if you don't know where you came from. We're talking social engineering, NOT RELIGION. But most of the worlds societies have their morals, norms, beliefs, etc... based on a religious foundation. And our country's was predicated on the Christian beliefs. Again; facts.
Agreed!The premise is not false. You may believe that you are an island, and that all your beliefs, morals, values, and actions are independently developed, but you would be wrong. That's why you'll find that different societies and cultures have different sets of values, morals, beliefs, etc...
You said that atheists can be moral. Of course they can. But what is moral? Is being a cannibal moral? In some societies it is. Is killing your wife moral if she disobeys you? In some cultures it is. You can believe that you established your morals totally independent of society, but you'd be wrong. You are a product of your society. And our society is affected in large part by the Christian beliefs.
That doesn't mean you are forced to adopt the Christian religion. And the air force teaching people where their morals derive from, and thus potential moral conflict, is not promoting a religion. And the only reason the air force ceased this training, is not because the agree its wrong. But because of political correctness.
And the only reason the air force ceased this training, is not because the agree its wrong. But because of political correctness.
David Smith, the spokesman for the Air Force’s Air Education and Training Command:
Smith said the inclusion of the Bible verses was an “inappropriate approach” in a “pluralistic society.”
“The use of Bible passage and other elements was just inappropriate,” he said.
So the official US Air Force spokesperson is lying?