Hertling: Army has a discipline problem

bruno

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The effects of 10 years at war are starting to show I suspect. Routine shuttling back and forth from the AOR - with maybe a year of down time. I think it's really wearing down the institution of the Army in all aspects- personnel & equipment. I'm sure that Scoutpilot has some thoughts on this.

"
WASHINGTON — Soldier discipline has deteriorated to the point where it risks becoming “cancerous,” a senior Army general said Wednesday...."
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/10/ap-hertling-army-has-discipline-problem-100511/
 
How about generational gap as a contributing factor?

Baby Boomers
Generation X
Generation Y(the Millennial Generation)

Majority the soldiers belong to the Millennial generation. A follow up discussion is what are the characteristics of the Millennial generation?
 
How about generational gap as a contributing factor?

Baby Boomers
Generation X
Generation Y(the Millennial Generation)

Majority the soldiers belong to the Millennial generation. A follow up discussion is what are the characteristics of the Millennial generation?

I really doubt it is a generational issue. I think 10 years at constant war has more to do with it.
 
I really doubt it is a generational issue. I think 10 years at constant war has more to do with it.

Plus, it's not exactly like the Baby Boomers were all models of discipline during their military experience. We've all seen the pictures of soldiers in Vietnam smoking dope.

The stress of war certainly was a part of that. Not to mention that those guys had the draft to deal with, with a deferment system that wasn't particulalry fair (and bred resentment).

And Vietnam was one of those decade-long wars, too.

I have no idea if this is a real problem or not, or if it is only one General's opinion. I'll leave having an opinion on the merits of the General's views to guys like scout who are in the active Army and can speak from their experience.
 
This may be relevant, so thought I'd throw it out. At RAND, all the Air Force, Army, and DoD projects require GO or SES sponsorship and the projects are selected by a rack and stack on military priorities each year.

Anyway, in a video RAND did for it's 50 year anniversary, they interviewed a general who summed up a common problem/incidence for them. RAND had a tendency to come back to them when given a project saying "You're not asking the right question, what you should REALLY be asking is ___."

I might dive into the FY12 Army research agenda at RAND and see if discipline is being studied this year. Will be telling how much it really matters.
 
The Army does have a discipline problem. It's not just a conduct problem. It's a problem of military bearing and professionalism. The drive for retention to keep "experience" in the ranks over the past decade has led us to a state where fat soldiers, lazy soldiers, troublemakers, or any hybrid thereof can survive and gain rank.

If General Hertling wants to know where the problem starts, he should look to his peers. One of his genius brethren decided awhile back that the Army needs to allow thugs off the street with neck tattoos. And people who can't muster the dedication to finish high school. Force us to take the dregs of society, and you'll get this as a result.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind. Or, as the saying goes...trash in, trash out.
 
At least the solution is simple, discharge every soldier who entered with a GED or a neck tatoo.
 
I don't think the problem is ten years at war... It might be the institution. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match between services, but the Marine Corps has been in this war just as long, and seen some of the heaviest fighting with some disproportionate casualty figures (considering our small size).

We are not having the same increase in discipline issues. There are the standard things that Marines have always done and will always do, but no dramatic and precipitous moral debasing.
 
Marines are overseas for half of the deployment time that soldiers have. Not sure what the solution is, but I'm guessing Scout's probably right about the retention issues and the willingness to overlook some issues with the hope of keeping people that know what's happening.
 
I don't think the problem is ten years at war... It might be the institution. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match between services, but the Marine Corps has been in this war just as long, and seen some of the heaviest fighting with some disproportionate casualty figures (considering our small size).

Well, let's talk about that for a second. Disproportionate to what, really? Let's compare apples to apples, please. A huge portion of your logistical and back-end support is drawn from the Army and Navy. The Army has a huge number of personnel who exist solely to support those who go out and do the fighting. If you want to talk about "proportionate" then you should compare the Army's fighting branches and those support brances routinely interacting with fighting forces in unsecure areas with their corresponding Marine brethren. You'll find that the casualty numbers are quite proportional. It all depends on how you parse it. How many Marine F-18 pilots have died in the war? None? One? If you simply look at that community, then the war seems to have been quite safe. We have to be careful about the sampling size.

The support side is where you have your real discipline problems. Line battalions in the combat arms world don't see those issues typically, beyond the dumb stuff Joe has always done. It's the huge logistical backside where we see our real issues. Sustainment brigades, Theater Support units, etc. By and large, you tend to see less educated folks in those roles, many of whom come from less than ideal backgrounds and choose those jobs to either learn a trade, avoid the rigors of direct combat, or both.

We are not having the same increase in discipline issues. There are the standard things that Marines have always done and will always do, but no dramatic and precipitous moral debasing.

I'd be interested to hear the opinion of someone about the LT level about what kind of discipline issues they see across the board. It's easy to say things are A-ok from your fighting position.

The Army will improve with the drawdown, similar to how war and a rapid expansion hurt us. The Army would love to have the luxry the Marines enjoy...the Army must recruit roughly 4 people for every 1 the Marines recruit. And then we have to ask them if they have any friends interested in joining. Many recruiters would be happy to turn away people, but that hasn't been reality until recently.

Could the Army toughen up? Hell yes. We're finally on that road.
 
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At least the solution is simple, discharge every soldier who entered with a GED or a neck tatoo.

You may not like the cold hard truth, but there was a good reason that the Army found those traits in a person (extreme tattooing and dropping out of high school) to be antithetical to disciplined military service. Are there exceptions? Yes, some turn out to be good joes. Most do not, and for understandable reasons.
 
You may not like the cold hard truth, but there was a good reason that the Army found those traits in a person (extreme tattooing and dropping out of high school) to be antithetical to disciplined military service. Are there exceptions? Yes, some turn out to be good joes. Most do not, and for understandable reasons.

I don't mind tattoos. Neck tattoos are, however, always nasty looking. I can't comprehend why people think they look cool.

That's only cool if you're a prison inmate and need it to prevent getting stabbed.
 
I am going to jump in here and laugh at this one....I spent just as much, if not more time overseas in Combat during the first four years after 2001 as any of my peers in the Army. To this day I still know Marines who are deploying for 12 months at a time into Afghanistan, with just 12 months between deployment.

I think you will find that it was around 2005 that both the Army and the Marine Corps recognized the need to increase the down time between combat deployments. Both Branches adjusted accordingly.

From my experience, Scout is right in his assessment. It is the recruitment and retention policies that have led to this predicament. I seen this issue raise its ugly head in the late 70's in both the Marine Corps and Army after Vietnam, particularly the overlooking of potential trouble areas such as gang affiliation and other troubling legal issues.

I do differ in his opinion concerning High School drop outs. The reason is simple, I have seen too many HS Drop outs from rural areas who left high school not because they just quit, but because they had to get a JOB to support their Family...and I am not talking about supporting Children, but supporting brothers, sisters and parents. I have also witnessed many HS Drop outs who given the chance once in the Military go on to complete their GED and then study to get a college degree.

One such person I know is currently serving as a Marine Gunner in Afghanistan. He dropped out of HS in 1982 to support his disabled Mother and Brother at 16 by working full time. In 1985 at age 19 he managed to enlist in the Corps as an infantryman. Once at his permanent duty station he managed to get his GED and then started to take night classes on post for his college degree. I am proud to say that he was one of the finer Recruits I had the privilege of training as a Drill Instructor.

In that regard, the Military has given many an opportunity to better themselves and achieve great things.

Edit: This is not to say that all HS Drop outs are good....However this is an area where our professional recruiting staff really needs to tread lightly and review the reasons why someone left high school.

Agreed, and that was my point. Some do turn out to be great. But long ago the military recognized that, by and large, those who leave school are not the type of people we want. The exceptions are always nice to hear about.

As for the amount of time spent, we all know people who pulled the tough duty. But by and large, most Marine Corps deployments were 6 months, and most Army deployments were 12. That's fine. The Army's job is sustained land combat. We can't gripe about it, it's what we signed up for. It's our fault as the Army for not managing the need for more troops more effectively. Lowering recruiting standards is a painful remedy to a manning shortfall. It goes back to the old "sew the wind, reap the whirlwind" adage I mentioned before.

During the surge, Marine deployments increased to seven months. Army deployments increased to 15 months. I was a bit miffed that we got three extra days of leave (to 18 days) in 15 months, while our USMC counterparts got 15 days in 7 months. Army policy was that those in country less than 12 months were not authorized R&R. But then again, no one asked me.

The real kick in ass was that the leave was chargeable.

Anyhow, digressing to irrelevancies...
 
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