Aviation Military Mishaps/Helos
- Thread starter SamAca10
- Start date
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
Number one danger is helmet hair.
crazymike256
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2012
- Messages
- 8
Scoutpilot, that's an awesome sig you have there 
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
I would have thought it is the fact that we we have to compensate the weight and balance impacts from our over-inflated egos each mission.
Besides, most of us fighter type guys have those naturally luxuriant and wavy locks that always seems to be dashingly blowing in the wind, helmet head be damned!
I also would rank "low and fast passes by the tower", or secretly messing around with the Admirals daughter as our number two danger....
Last edited:
AF6872
15-Year Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2007
- Messages
- 4,838
"Bubble Check" between search and height finder before RTB. For the uninitiated, a fighter flys at very low altitude between two very closely situated radar towers and then does a vertical and roll. Always liked the heads up when they told us they were inbound. Great show.
The silk scarf was probably flying.
The silk scarf was probably flying.
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
All jokes aside, Sam, what did you want to know?
scoutpilot
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,479
Video
If we put aside our fun joking, there is a lot to be learned about the hazards of overwater flight and aviation in general.
This is one of the favored vignettes they use in Dunker training. Take note of how quickly things go wrong, and that the helicopter does not float at the surface. I believe 14 Marines/Aircrew perished in this incident. Though it's not online, the typical follow-up video used is a Marine SSgt telling his story of swimming out from the aircraft, which was honestly pure luck. He had some awful dysbaric injuries to his lungs.
Many lessons were learned from this crash. Many Marines died because, as part of their kit for the VBSS training mission, they were wearing flak vests over their life preserver units which prevented their inflation.
http://youtu.be/b88vkqU3gaw
If we put aside our fun joking, there is a lot to be learned about the hazards of overwater flight and aviation in general.
This is one of the favored vignettes they use in Dunker training. Take note of how quickly things go wrong, and that the helicopter does not float at the surface. I believe 14 Marines/Aircrew perished in this incident. Though it's not online, the typical follow-up video used is a Marine SSgt telling his story of swimming out from the aircraft, which was honestly pure luck. He had some awful dysbaric injuries to his lungs.
Many lessons were learned from this crash. Many Marines died because, as part of their kit for the VBSS training mission, they were wearing flak vests over their life preserver units which prevented their inflation.
http://youtu.be/b88vkqU3gaw
Last edited:
SamAca10
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2009
- Messages
- 1,045
I just created this thread so Mongo could talk about helo waterlandings and all of that stuff outside of the USCGA forum. There's no reason for all of his postings there.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,181
Bullet,
You forgot our rock-hard chins, steely blue eyes, and natural ability to NOT be silent when we probably should!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Bullet
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 986
Well, to get back to this becoming a serious discussion...
So, what causes military aviation mishaps? Why do we have so many accidents when we know the costs are so high, both in the lives lost and the machines our tax payers paid so dearly for?
No really easy answer here, but it was touched on a little in the other thread. What we find is the vast majority of military aviation mishaps will include pilot error as either the primary cause or a contributing factor.
Now, are we training a bunch of idiots, or do we have a population of stupid people who have somehow gravitated towards the military aviation career field? Quite the contrary; most, if not all, of the aviators you will find are VERY intelligent, extremely competent, and extra-ordinarily gifted. Not a boast, we simply maintain that standard by making the initial training process extremely exacting and difficult to succeed in if you don't possess those qualities (myself being an exemption to that trend). In short, we WEED OUT those who will be a danger, both to themselves and their fellow aviators.
But why the mishaps then? Simple -- people make mistakes. All the time! Granted, there are those examples where some will ignore rules or common sense in their duties. THOSE few are the stupid ones, the dangerous ones.
But mistakes happen. And in the environments the military aviator flies, the risk that those mistakes will lead to more mishaps is greater simple because the margin for error is smaller than say your typical airline type of sortie. Quite simply, the military requires our aircraft to DO MORE, RISK MORE, and FLY HARDER than what would be acceptable in the civilian world. And we do this because our mission REQUIRES it. We fly faster, lower, higher, slower, closer to each other, in more crowded airspace, pulling more Gs, executing more maneuvers, etc. than the civilian world. All factors that make our missions more riskier.
With all that being said, how do we try to achieve safety? Another simple answer; by learning from the mistakes others have made. When I flew in F-15Es, the pre-flight brief for EVERY training sortie included a portion that went over the "Training Rules", things we were supposed to do (or not do) while flying that day's mission. Where did these rules come from? From the lessons learned (the hard way) from those who have gone before us.
So, to summarize this long post: Mishaps happen usually because someone made a mistake (not because someone is stupid as has been suggested). The margin for error in military flying usually means that those mistakes will have higher risks towards a mishap. We also try to minimize those mistakes by adhering to lessons learned and training rules designed to minimize those mistakes and their consequences.
Does this answer meet your intent?
So, what causes military aviation mishaps? Why do we have so many accidents when we know the costs are so high, both in the lives lost and the machines our tax payers paid so dearly for?
No really easy answer here, but it was touched on a little in the other thread. What we find is the vast majority of military aviation mishaps will include pilot error as either the primary cause or a contributing factor.
Now, are we training a bunch of idiots, or do we have a population of stupid people who have somehow gravitated towards the military aviation career field? Quite the contrary; most, if not all, of the aviators you will find are VERY intelligent, extremely competent, and extra-ordinarily gifted. Not a boast, we simply maintain that standard by making the initial training process extremely exacting and difficult to succeed in if you don't possess those qualities (myself being an exemption to that trend). In short, we WEED OUT those who will be a danger, both to themselves and their fellow aviators.
But why the mishaps then? Simple -- people make mistakes. All the time! Granted, there are those examples where some will ignore rules or common sense in their duties. THOSE few are the stupid ones, the dangerous ones.
But mistakes happen. And in the environments the military aviator flies, the risk that those mistakes will lead to more mishaps is greater simple because the margin for error is smaller than say your typical airline type of sortie. Quite simply, the military requires our aircraft to DO MORE, RISK MORE, and FLY HARDER than what would be acceptable in the civilian world. And we do this because our mission REQUIRES it. We fly faster, lower, higher, slower, closer to each other, in more crowded airspace, pulling more Gs, executing more maneuvers, etc. than the civilian world. All factors that make our missions more riskier.
With all that being said, how do we try to achieve safety? Another simple answer; by learning from the mistakes others have made. When I flew in F-15Es, the pre-flight brief for EVERY training sortie included a portion that went over the "Training Rules", things we were supposed to do (or not do) while flying that day's mission. Where did these rules come from? From the lessons learned (the hard way) from those who have gone before us.
So, to summarize this long post: Mishaps happen usually because someone made a mistake (not because someone is stupid as has been suggested). The margin for error in military flying usually means that those mistakes will have higher risks towards a mishap. We also try to minimize those mistakes by adhering to lessons learned and training rules designed to minimize those mistakes and their consequences.
Does this answer meet your intent?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,181
All kidding aside, Bullet's dead-on here.
You can be the finest trained aviator, flying the finest, most state-of-the art aircraft (rotary or fixed wing), and one small "blink" or "hmm..." or just "one of those things" can be the difference between an accident and just another story to tell at the bar.
I didn't take it that seriously until I lost a friend. Sure, we briefed "safety first" and such but hey...when you're 25 and flying an amazing jet...you do things. But when I learned that a classmate and CLOSE friend "went in" in his UH-60...and then it was declared "pilot error." I was crushed; he was TOO good, no way could it be "pilot error" because we ALL know that means you're a screw-up!
Not true.
"XXXX" allowed another pilot to fly (XXXX was a Stan Eval IP/Evaluator) on a low-level. And during that flight, the other pilot made a "slightly" incorrect input to the controls and the bird nosedived into the ground at 150 or so knots. I'm not a rotory wing pilot, I don't know what the margin for error is in a helo low-level, but I know when I flew fast-movers and the "other guy" had the stick, I guarded MY stick like a hawk. But "XXXX" must have missed it.
And I lost a good friend and the USAF lost a helo and the entire crew. Did they "duck" a bird? Did the controls move imperceptively? We'll never know.
Which is why we "refly" and "discuss/rediscuss/rehash" every mishap...knowing we'll probably never know BUT going over EVERY scenario we can come up with...just to make US feel: "Okay...I'm more aware...I'll be that much more careful!"
It's a good topic.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
You can be the finest trained aviator, flying the finest, most state-of-the art aircraft (rotary or fixed wing), and one small "blink" or "hmm..." or just "one of those things" can be the difference between an accident and just another story to tell at the bar.
I didn't take it that seriously until I lost a friend. Sure, we briefed "safety first" and such but hey...when you're 25 and flying an amazing jet...you do things. But when I learned that a classmate and CLOSE friend "went in" in his UH-60...and then it was declared "pilot error." I was crushed; he was TOO good, no way could it be "pilot error" because we ALL know that means you're a screw-up!
Not true.
"XXXX" allowed another pilot to fly (XXXX was a Stan Eval IP/Evaluator) on a low-level. And during that flight, the other pilot made a "slightly" incorrect input to the controls and the bird nosedived into the ground at 150 or so knots. I'm not a rotory wing pilot, I don't know what the margin for error is in a helo low-level, but I know when I flew fast-movers and the "other guy" had the stick, I guarded MY stick like a hawk. But "XXXX" must have missed it.
And I lost a good friend and the USAF lost a helo and the entire crew. Did they "duck" a bird? Did the controls move imperceptively? We'll never know.
Which is why we "refly" and "discuss/rediscuss/rehash" every mishap...knowing we'll probably never know BUT going over EVERY scenario we can come up with...just to make US feel: "Okay...I'm more aware...I'll be that much more careful!"
It's a good topic.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83