What is This $h*@?

My class rank has dropped from 15 to 25% .However its not because of bad grades.In fact in between that time my GPA rose....(3.7-3.8) I live in ancient country town ironically centered in the middle of wealth and affluence. Because its a podunk town all the local kids drop out in 10th grade. Since all these kids are losers and failures at life, the bottom "falls out" so to speak. This makes it very hard to keep a high class rank . Not only that but since I live in the county with the best schools in a very desirable area of the south. Because of this a lot of smart kids move there. Not to mention there is strong middle class presence of college-minded kids.

Obviously I cannot anything about these morons dropping out or these kids moving here. My question is there anything that can redeem myself from these out of control factors concerning my class rank?

Really?

hardknock96 said:

Since all these kids are losers and failures at life, the bottom "falls out" so to speak.

Obviously I cannot anything about these morons dropping out or these kids moving here. My question is there anything that can redeem myself from these out of control factors concerning my class rank?

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You may want to start with a little more respect and decorum. I was the son of a fruit picker and took a three year route to get into USMA. I was by your definition a loser in high school. Bad form young person. Don't bemoan your circumstances. Do something about it. Make sure you do well on the standardized tests, excel at leadership and maybe start a community project to help keep kids in high school. If I was an admissions guy and got a whiff of your sentiments, NOGO from the get go.

I should control my emotions better. It really frusterates me I work so hard for something that can be taken away by the laziness of others. I apologize for any insults I may have made. I did not mean to associate poverty with being a "loser". I should have specified. These kids who drop out are really lazy and extremely addicted to drugs. My town is on I-95 and lots of kids are on drugs. My question is are the standardized tests capable of making up for a failure such as this?

hardknock96 said:

I should control my emotions better. It really frusterates me I work so hard for something that can be taken away by the laziness of others. I apologize for any insults I may have made. I did not mean to associate poverty with being a "loser". I should have specified. These kids who drop out are really lazy and extremely addicted to drugs. My town is on I-95 and lots of kids are on drugs. My question is are the standardized tests capable of making up for a failure such as this?

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Sure they are. You have absolutely no control over what they do so it's in your best interest to not get upset over it. Work even harder in school and study hard for the standardized tests. If your school is as excellent as you say it is then the admissions board will recognize that, another reason not to get upset.

Tests

hardknock96 said:

My question is are the standardized tests capable of making up for a failure such as this?

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It all depends. Look to make yourself as competitive as possible. If you get X ACT scores it will be better than X - 2. Depends on your competition and how you stack up.

hardknock96 said:

I should control my emotions better. It really frusterates me I work so hard for something that can be taken away by the laziness of others.

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Perhaps you should turn this around and quit blaming other's "laziness". Maybe it is not them, but instead it is your failure to get a 4.0 instead of a 3.7. If you had a 4.0 and were ranked #1 in your class it wouldn't matter at all how many dropped out below you.

Stealth_81

I think if there is one takeaway from these forums, an appointment is not a demolition derby with 15,000 cars, ranked 1st to worst.

There are 100s of pots. Your job is not to out run the bear. It is out run the guy/gal in your match.

I think too many really fine young people view an Appointment as some of kind of be all and end all. I think you will find that admissions is looking for kids who want to serve, but more importantly, will overcome any test.

That people around you are self destructing does not hurt your chances. It gives you a chance to stand out as someone who has a higher calling, and has the self discipline to be a leader in a tough place.

They want kids who show strength, and class, in tough places, with tough guys, leading the latter, and still excelling with the stuff that takes hard book work.

Few can do both. View this as a leadership opportunity.

It won't hurt you. But guys that get in, are no different, and they took these challenges, excelled anyway, and it helped them.

nothingventurednothinggai said:

I think if there is one takeaway from these forums, an appointment is not a demolition derby with 15,000 cars, ranked 1st to worst.

There are 100s of pots. Your job is not to out run the bear. It is out run the guy/gal in your match.

I think too many really fine young people view an Appointment as some of kind of be all and end all. I think you will find that admissions is looking for kids who want to serve, but more importantly, will overcome any test.

That people around you are self destructing does not hurt your chances. It gives you a chance to stand out as someone who has a higher calling, and has the self discipline to be a leader in a tough place.




They want kids who show strength, and class, in tough places, with tough guys, leading the latter, and still excelling with the stuff that takes hard book work.

Few can do both. View this as a leadership opportunity.




It won't hurt you. But guys that get in, are no different, and they took these challenges, excelled anyway, and it helped them.

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I realized I was too gentle in my remark. I know these towns on 95. They produce a huge percentage of the men who are the enlisted men, many thousands who are dead or crippled. Many dropped out in 10th grade. Many served 5 or more tours in combat. This is a forum about producing service academy graduate officers, to lead such men.

This poster has no respect for the men who are in fact our soldiers, and has no business aspiring to lead men he disdains. He wants to be somebody big, but has no concept that leadership is precisely about getting the boys home who he calls loser.

He needs to find another calling where trashing the guys who do the hard work is respected. Unfortunately, I don't know of any such jobs that exist.

So, you've gotten some honest feedback here -- it can be valuable to you if you're not defensive about it.

1. No decision-maker (whether at West Point or in a Congressional office, for a nomination) is going to react well if it sounds like you are making excuses or blaming those who have dropped out for your class rank becoming proportionally lower. IF asked about the change (I doubt you would be, as they'll get a snapshot of what your rank is NOW, not what it has been each year) you could factually say -- my class got smaller midway through high school due to people not finishing, and although my GPA went up my class rank went down.

2. Any decision-maker will consider a pool of, at a minimum, high school graduates to be the proper peer group for you to compete against, so they won't see it as any kind of hardship to you that your class lost people along the way before graduation.

3. Even as a rising senior, you've effectively got one more semester in which to work to bring up your GPA and thus your class rank. It's worth giving it your all, and then some.

4. As I understand it, academic performance is weighted 60% in the admissions determination (the Whole Candidate Score). And academic performance is determined half on class rank, half on standardized test scores (SAT or ACT). In other words, your standardized test score is weighted 30% in the overall decision, and your GPA is also weighted 30%. The great thing about the standardized test score is that it is more within your immediate control to change it, quickly, for the better. Your GPA will be determined on 7 semesters and 6 are already in the books. By contrast, you can take the SAT/ACT again and again and ONLY you control how much you study for it. Channel that frustration into going online and practicing; buying some used test prep books and practicing; and reading as much as you can over the summer to raise your overall vocabulary.

5. I can tell you from experience -- much of serving in the military is feeling at the mercy of forces over which you have no control. The sooner you focus on doing your best with what you do control and not bemoaning what you don't control, the sooner you'll be on the road to thinking and acting like a future officer.

Good luck to you.

I would add to Academyfriends wise advise, that if you want to be a great officer, you have to live and breath for your enlisted. They are not deciding Duke or USNA. They are the military, and Academy Officers need to understand that they serve THEM.

Let me reframe your posts for you:

"Hey Staff Sergeant, I'm better than you because I graduated from college and you didn't."

"It's not fair; the competition is tough and I can't be expected to perform at the level of that other guy."

"I failed, but it's not my fault that my people are all lazy and unmotivated."

Does that sound like acceptable thinking for an officer?

Your way of thinking is wrong. Hopefully you know why and can correct it. I've seen this line of thinking in some of my peers, and it is unfortunate when they have to learn the hard way. Stay humble and take accountability for yourself.

And maybe breathe for a bit before posting a thread with such a sensational title. Stay professional.

I have no cred, but Hardnock is not going to get into USMA, and needs to find a path where service is local, maybe around changing oil.

I know this is rude. But being an Officer is fundamentally about getting those guys home, that he described as low lives.

For those contemplating adding to this thread - there is nothing gained by "piling on". The OP has been challenged to focus on what he can control rather than what he can't.

There is no reason to start or continue personal attacks.

Let this thread die.

Also…. many enlisted DO have college degrees…. including master's.

Your class rank is not dependent on others (I realize that's a false statement), it's dependent on you. There is a top 5% in your class…. you just aren't one of them… and that's on you (or likely they're just better students).

If you were 20th in a class of 200, and now you are 20th in a class of 100, you are still 20th, right?

I would stop worrying about the percentile.

Actually OP, this could be your lucky day. Why don't you make it your personal mission the rest of this year, summer and beginning on next year to help these high school kids stay on the straight and narrow and graduate. You have identified a real problem in society. Why not try to positively influence it rather than complain about it? You might even be able to partner with the local military recruiters to run some programs for these kids (bball leagues, PT programs, etc..). This would give the recruiters a way in to working with local youth that might turn out to be good future recruits.

Turn lemons into lemonaide....

Wow, what a first post, and what a bunch of comments! Won't pile on other than to recognize the surprise, yet also the need to take accountability for your success/actions. Don't be a victim!

Just be aware that the same rank effect happens at USMA. On even more things! (Academic, Military, and Physical). And in some aspects has a bigger impact on your early career.

Reality: As the pool of peers shrinks the competition increases. And typically has a negative impact on your rankings.

There is a steady attrition, then a noticeable cluster of drops beginning of cow (junior) year, etc.

Since in general it's harder to improve your GPA over time, it's a very real effect.

So at USMA the old truism applies that if you are are not moving ahead you are actually moving backwards.

This is something to keep in mind for BEAST, etc. Some of the "run under the radar", "be the gray man", etc strategies can hurt you long term.

Your mil & physical performance from CBT (beast) have a very large impact on your winter class rank. (Along with fall semester academics of course).

That rank and associated perceptions heavily influence MIAD selections as a rising yearling, etc. And it's much harder to get MIAD's later, and extremely difficult of late to get a 2nd MIAD if you did not get the one you wanted as a rising yearling.

Point being: you have to take ownership of your performance and it's impact on rank. And recognize that "good enough" is normally NOT!

One other thing: For admissions decisions, trends matter. IE: show you are doing your part to improve things from here out. Likewise, rock the standardized testing, and fight for every point. Just plan on studying and taking every opportunity (within reason). DS pulled up his SAT's 200 points (Math+Reading) from studying, superscore effect, and a bit of luck.

I just need to point out that people dropping out can have absolutely no mathematical impact on your class standing other than to possible improve it! People moving in? That's called life!

Does West Point take into account the competition you face in your rank? My high school is extremely selective (<10% acceptance rate) so my competition is very challenging, as you would imagine. My school doesn't rank either, but my guidance counselor said they could provide the percent of the class I'm in - would West Point accept that as an alternative? Thanks as always everyone.


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kinnem said:

I just need to point out that people dropping out can have absolutely no mathematical impact on your class standing other than to possible improve it!

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Incorrect. If a candidate in 10th grade is #15 in a class of 150 they will be ranked as top 10 percent of the class. If 1/3 of the class drops out when they get to 11th grade (assuming everyone who dropped out is below the candidate in rank), the candidate is now 15th out of 100, or top 20 percent ranking.

Stealth_81