CULP and CIET summer 2015 AROTC

Maybe we will know soon about summer training! This was posted on facebook:

U.S. Army ROTC Cadet Summer:

2015 Cadet Summer Training Planning Meeting starts today at Fort Knox.
 
Jcleppe, this is very true. I just feel for those Cadets who thought they were done with Knox who now have to go back to take tests. Not to mention how costly that will be for CC. I understand having a fair test environment and all that, but geez.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there should be a way to have these tests proctered at the individual battalions instead of flying these cadets back to Ft. Knox for 3 days.
 
My point was they shouldn't have got away from the way things were done at LDAC. If anything, the standards and field training should have been more extensive. Being "put on the spot" and given a squad or platoon for that matter to lead while being evaluated would demonstrate your leadership skills much better than a standardized memorization test.

I totally agree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Not saying ROTC might not have needed up dated, but not totally re-structured.

Having two sons go through LDAC, one in 2011 and the other in 2014, I'm not sure I don't agree with a major overhaul of the LDAC type training. The feedback I heard from my sons as well as other cadets focused mainly on how subjective the evaluations were during training.

My older son went through when the newly commissioned LT's working at LDAC graded the APFT, to be honest, that was a joke. Cadets that had consistent 300's or above were receiving 270's or worse, the grading varied by huge degrees. The LDAC APFT was worth over 9 points on the on the OML back then and this grading had a big effect on the cadets standing. Back at the Battalion the NCO's would all complain about the grading. At least that was something they finally changed to having NCO's grade the APFT at LDAC.

Having the cadets in leadership slots is a good way of testing their abilities, the issue again came to how subjective the grading was. Older son received an overall E, younger son a S, both talked a lot about how messed up the grading was. Some TACs would grade soft, some very hard. I remember my older son saying he was surprised he received an E when he saw others do just as good and sometimes better receive a S because they had a different TAC. Back then LDAC counted big in the OML, the things that happened at LDAC directly effected the cadets future career.

After hearing all these stories I'm not sure an overhaul wasn't needed.

I would have to agree with K2rider though, I still think the cadets need to be evaluated in leadership roles, it may be better that those evals are done at the battalion level where the Cadre (Who wants to be there teaching) can watch a cadet develop rather then having a onetime eval by a TAC that just doesn't want to be stuck in Ft. Know for the summer with a bunch of cadets.

I remember my younger son talking about Winter Mountain Warfare School, He said that even though the pass rate was about 62% the grading was very fair, the instructors all enjoyed their jobs and worked hard to make sure each soldier understood what was expected, if you didn't pass there was a good reason and nothing seemed subjective. He made a comment after LDAC that he sure wished they ran it like they did MWS.

I think they could have kept a few of the non subjective training evals at Knox such as Land Nav, Rucks, and so on to add to the total eval package. Simply giving standardized tests seems a little underwhelming.
 
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Even having the school cadre evaluate things though can still be somewhat arbitrary. Small schools vs large schools, lots of variables on how evaluations are made. Again, not saying changes or updating in classes and LDAC might not have been needed, just don't see the complete overhaul that they are trying to do and the large number of cadets that will apparently either be short changed or flat out screwed my the lack of planning and implementation.
 
Even having the school cadre evaluate things though can still be somewhat arbitrary. Small schools vs large schools, lots of variables on how evaluations are made. Again, not saying changes or updating in classes and LDAC might not have been needed, just don't see the complete overhaul that they are trying to do and the large number of cadets that will apparently either be short changed or flat out screwed my the lack of planning and implementation.

Can't argue with that.

Making such a large wholesale change like they are trying to do all at once could lead to a variety of issues. I have a feeling the wait times that the class of 2015 had during accessions/branching will be small compared to this next year. It would sure be interesting to see how the OML for this next year looks on paper, but of course nobody will ever see the paper trail, just the end results. I do wish the clas of 2016 the best of luck.
 
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Just thought I would pass this along, this was posted for the cadets at my son's battalion, some here might find it interesting information.

MSI’s, MSII’s and Leaders,

The instructions for CIET have been published, in an effort to keep the Bn informed of upcoming events and to give a sense of predictability for the future please read the following carefully. All contracted MSI’s going into their MSII year in the Fall that have not attended Basic training/AIT are will be required to attend Cadet Initial Entry Training this summer between June and August (exceptions will be on a case by case basis). MSII’s that are considered Lateral Entry cadets (meaning cadets that have not completed all 4 semesters of MSI and MSII years are also eligible, and finally any MSI or MSII that wants to volunteer. I need this information back by Monday at the latest to submit this information to Brigade. PL’s & PSG’s I am asking for your assistance in this tasking, this is also the type of thing platoon leadership needs to track and be able to talk about at training meetings. If you have any questions please ask, I am attaching below some information about CIET for general knowledge. This is a great opportunity to get some of the best training the army has to offer and will greatly augment the on-campus instruction you receive.

Thank you.


Cadet Initial Entry Training (CIET) Course

The Cadet Initial Entry Training Course is opportunity training, beginning during Cadet Summer Training 2015, for rising college Freshmen and Sophomores, graduate degree programs, and high school graduates attending one of five military junior colleges, to experience world-class leadership training. Cadets develop new skills, experience personal growth and awareness, and become qualified for enrollment in the Advanced Course (MSIII and MSIV year) of Army ROTC that ultimately leads to a commission as an Army Officer. Training is conducted 26 of 28 days at CIET. Cadets will have two days off, usually on Sunday, when they will be allowed to take advantage of the numerous MWR facilities on post and religious services, essentially to experience life on an Army installation.

Conducted at Fort Knox, Kentucky, the Cadet Initial Entry Training Course's main focus is to develop leadership skills and discipline through exposure to interactive personal and group experiences. Cadets are introduced to the "Soldierization" experience as the learn many of the basic Soldier sills that set the U.S. Army apart from civilian colleagues. Army Drill Sergeants and cadre from universities across the nation play key roles in the Cadet experience as they provide guidance and mentorship while evaluating and providing feedback to Cadets who lead themselves through the daily training rigors.

Through this experience, Cadets learn how and when to lead others and the importance of teamwork in accomplishing a common goal. More importantly, they are taught the values and ethos of an Army officer. Training is sequenced in a logical building-block manner, which allows an ideal flow of training for each company. Training is organized into four phases. The training program includes:

Soldier First Phase– a three-day indoctrination designed to introduce the Cadets to the U.S. Army. The underpinning premise is that in order to be a good leader, you must first understand what it means to be a Soldier. Upon arrival, the Cadets are introduced to the same standards as initial entry trainees by the Army’s professional NCO Corps--specifically the Drill Sergeants. The Cadets learn how to wear the uniform, are introduced to the Army Physical Fitness Program, and are taught the basics of Drill and Ceremony. Upon completion of the Soldier First Phase the Cadets participate in a Guidon Ceremony where they are formally assigned into platoons with a subordinate Cadet chain of command.

Warrior Leader Phase– covers adventure training, which builds both Cadet self-confidence and unit esprit-de-corps. Additionally, Cadets learn basic military skills in order to function as a small unit member. Training includes: Teamwork Development Course, Rappelling, Water Survival, Stream Crossing, Troop Leading Procedures, Drill and Ceremonies, Heavy Weapons, the Hand Grenade Assault Course, Road Marches, Basic Rifle Marksmanship, Map Reading, Land Navigation, Orienteering, Squad Tactics, and, of course, physical fitness.

Bold Leader (LDX) Phase– is the course’s four-day LDX “Capstone Exercise.” Cadets are exposed to autonomous squad level operations where cadre assess the Cadets’ leadership ability in a physically and emotionally stressful field environment. Cadets will experience event-oriented leadership training opportunities such as rock climbing and high ropes courses, squad tactics and paintball, survival training, and water operations. There are also many unexpected leadership situational training exercises Cadets encounter during the four-day period.

Future Leader Phase– as the final phase of CIET, Cadets will reinforce and share their learning experience through small group reflection, final counseling, family day, and the graduation ceremony. The afternoon before graduation is a “Family Day” where families and friends are briefed about the course and allowed to spend the afternoon with Cadets.

Typical Training Day

0500 Wake up

0530-0630 PT

0630-0800 Breakfast/hygiene/barracks maintenance

0800-1200 Training

1200-1300 Lunch and movement integrated

1300-1700 Training

1700-1730 Movement to barracks

1730-1830 Dinner

1830-2000 Reinforcement time/Counseling/Additional Training

2000-2100 Cadet Troop Leading Procedures/Barracks Maintenance

2100-2200 Hygiene/Cadet Time

2200 Lights out
 
jcleppe, great info. The way I read it... looks like current MSII's are not mandated to attend. Current MSII's will not have any summer training unless the volunteer to go or have AA,AB.... etc. Would you agree based on your post? Thanks again for the great info.
 
jcleppe, great info. The way I read it... looks like current MSII's are not mandated to attend. Current MSII's will not have any summer training unless the volunteer to go or have AA,AB.... etc. Would you agree based on your post? Thanks again for the great info.

That's because current MS-II's have been taught under the old system so this is the stuff they have already learned. No need for them to go. That would open them up for CULP or other schools/training.

Since they are changing the curriculum for ROTC the current MS-I's will not have the benefit of the battalion level training that has been done in the past.
 
So are you saying that current MSII's won't have any summer training, ever?
It would appear to me that any MS-II in the future that hasn't done CIET would have to go at some point in order to contract and continue with their MS-III and MS-IV years. Just from reading the description that's what I get from it.

Also would like to add to my previous comment. It seams as though AA and Airborne slots have been drastically reduced this year. So opportunities for those might be tough to get. And CULP so far has not released any information, which in the past the first round was released prior to Christmas break, so not sure how that is playing into things either.
 
This summer at Ft. Knox is going to be a mess. Trying to get a new summer program off the ground and CULP at the same time is going to be a real train wreck. Last yr DS was notified prior to Christmas he was selected and it took him 4 months to get all dialed in. I don't see how CC is going to pull it off. CULP is a great oppurtunity and I hope it all works out. DS is very glad he has no training commitments for this summer.
 
JCleppe, thanks for posting. is there any chance this is battalion or brigade specific. or is this to all AROTC?
 
DS is contracted MSII, has never had any summer training. I am confused. Will he ever have this training? I don't understand what's going on for the class of 2017. It's like they are falling through the cracks, based on what you guys are saying here. What am I missing?
 
DS is contracted MSII, has never had any summer training. I am confused. Will he ever have this training? I don't understand what's going on for the class of 2017. It's like they are falling through the cracks, based on what you guys are saying here. What am I missing?

This summer training is what your DS learned last year and this year in his MS-I and MS-II classes and labs. It's what used to be called LTC, for people that did not take MS-I or MS-II but wanted to join ROTC at the start of their MS-III year. Basically 2 yrs condensed into 4 weeks.

The way ROTC is taught at the battalion level is changing, but your DS was taught at least partially under the old system.

Your DS will go to to CLC (the new LDAC) after his MS-III year.
 
DS is contracted MSII, has never had any summer training. I am confused. Will he ever have this training? I don't understand what's going on for the class of 2017. It's like they are falling through the cracks, based on what you guys are saying here. What am I missing?

Your son will be following the same timeline as previous cadets. Even if he does not attend CIET he will still be attending CLC the summer after his MS3 year. All cadets ending their MS3 year will attend CLC.

Prior to all this shake up the basic training schedule was as follows:
(This is for the summer after each year)

MS1 - If they were contracted there was a chance these cadets could attend CULP if selected.

MS2 - There was no mandatory training for this summer, If selected cadets could attend either CULP or a school such as Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain Warfare, or others.

MS3 - This was the summer of LDAC, every cadet would attend unless they had a medical issue. This course has been changed to CLC which will still be a requirement for all MS3s.

The only difference now is they have added CIET. From the sounds of it current MS2's won't be required to attend though it looks like they could volunteer depending on space available. The MS2's this year could still compete for any schools they may have slots for.
 
This summer training is what your DS learned last year and this year in his MS-I and MS-II classes and labs. It's what used to be called LTC, for people that did not take MS-I or MS-II but wanted to join ROTC at the start of their MS-III year. Basically 2 yrs condensed into 4 weeks.

The way ROTC is taught at the battalion level is changing, but your DS was taught at least partially under the old system.

Your DS will go to to CLC (the new LDAC) after his MS-III year.

Your son will be following the same timeline as previous cadets. Even if he does not attend CIET he will still be attending CLC the summer after his MS3 year. All cadets ending their MS3 year will attend CLC.

Prior to all this shake up the basic training schedule was as follows:
(This is for the summer after each year)

MS1 - If they were contracted there was a chance these cadets could attend CULP if selected.

MS2 - There was no mandatory training for this summer, If selected cadets could attend either CULP or a school such as Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain Warfare, or others.

MS3 - This was the summer of LDAC, every cadet would attend unless they had a medical issue. This course has been changed to CLC which will still be a requirement for all MS3s.

The only difference now is they have added CIET. From the sounds of it current MS2's won't be required to attend though it looks like they could volunteer depending on space available. The MS2's this year could still compete for any schools they may have slots for.

Ok -- thank you for clarifying. That all makes sense, and works out for DS since this coming summer he already has an internship abroad scheduled.
 
" a three-day indoctrination designed to introduce the Cadets to the U.S. Army. The underpinning premise is that in order to be a good leader, you must first understand what it means to be a Soldier. Upon arrival, the Cadets are introduced to the same standards as initial entry trainees by the Army’s professional NCO Corps--specifically the Drill Sergeants." AKA a lot of PT and pain. I'm excited, this training program sounds awesome.
 
" a three-day indoctrination designed to introduce the Cadets to the U.S. Army. The underpinning premise is that in order to be a good leader, you must first understand what it means to be a Soldier. Upon arrival, the Cadets are introduced to the same standards as initial entry trainees by the Army’s professional NCO Corps--specifically the Drill Sergeants." AKA a lot of PT and pain. I'm excited, this training program sounds awesome.
If it's like LTC was it's not that bad. Some in your face yelling but PT was not that bad if you can pass the APFT. They don't try to weed people out, just encourage in a forceful manner for a few days. At the time DS said it was a little intimidating (he went in at 18 with no ROTC experience), but for cadets that have 1 year of ROTC under their belts it shouldn't be bad at all. He now looks back and said it was actually harder than LDAC was last summer.
 
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