No more Principal Nominations.

Gee, it couldn't possibly be that public school kids DID want to attend but were outperformed by the private school kids? Guess not. The truth is we don't know why and in most cases the MOC does not pick the slates, a panel does.
 
Gee, it couldn't possibly be that public school kids DID want to attend but were outperformed by the private school kids? Guess not. The truth is we don't know why and in most cases the MOC does not pick the slates, a panel does.

Honestly, I would find it extremely hard to believe that there was not at least ONE public school applicant that qualified for a nomination and didn't receive it. Just my opinion of course. I sometimes wonder if in certain areas it's "who you know" or "who your parents are". which if it is a panel like you said, is very likely in some areas throughout the states.
 
But you aren't talking about nominations. You're talking about appointments. Very different things. I agree with you about nominations. I can conceive of private school attendees outperforming public school attendees in particular congressional districts when it comes to appointments.
 
My public school kid got a nomination from our district rep, although not from a senator. My DD was turned down by USNA, but a kid was offered an appointment last year from the same public high school. I don't doubt that there's a few politicians that will give a nod to a kid for a campaign contribution, but I think it's the exception and not the norm.
 
DD received a principal nomination from our district rep.

DD attended a very small rural public school her entire life (25 in her senior class), no private school, but also completed 90 college credit hours during her last three years of high school, earning two degrees - an AS in Chemistry and an AA in General Studies.
So, public school kids can definitely outperform private school kids, if they work hard and look beyond the high school walls for advanced opportunities.

We, in no way, had any political connections to the district rep or the two senators, one of which also gave her a nomination.
 
DD received a principal nomination from our district rep.

DD attended a very small rural public school her entire life (25 in her senior class), no private school, but also completed 90 college credit hours during her last three years of high school, earning two degrees - an AS in Chemistry and an AA in General Studies.
So, public school kids can definitely outperform private school kids, if they work hard and look beyond the high school walls for advanced opportunities.

We, in no way, had any political connections to the district rep or the two senators, one of which also gave her a nomination.
Hello,
I am fairly new here and was curious about nominations. I can probably relate to your DD, I am a senior in an early college high school getting an AS and a high school diploma. My school is small as well but with no sports/extracurricular, so I explored my community and joined Boy Scouts and sea cadets, getting senior positions and ranks in both. I was just wondering how I could be competitive for nominations similar to your DD; as everyone knows, without nominations, it makes it harder to get an appointment. I live in North Carolina by the way.
 
Hello,
I am fairly new here and was curious about nominations. I can probably relate to your DD, I am a senior in an early college high school getting an AS and a high school diploma. My school is small as well but with no sports/extracurricular, so I explored my community and joined Boy Scouts and sea cadets, getting senior positions and ranks in both. I was just wondering how I could be competitive for nominations similar to your DD; as everyone knows, without nominations, it makes it harder to get an appointment. I live in North Carolina by the way.

No nomination, no appointment.

Don't worry about if you are competitive for a nomination or not. If you want to attend a service academy that requires a nomination, apply and see what happens. If if you are not competitive, you should get some good experience/lessons during the application process.
 
Hello,
I am fairly new here and was curious about nominations. I can probably relate to your DD, I am a senior in an early college high school getting an AS and a high school diploma. My school is small as well but with no sports/extracurricular, so I explored my community and joined Boy Scouts and sea cadets, getting senior positions and ranks in both. I was just wondering how I could be competitive for nominations similar to your DD; as everyone knows, without nominations, it makes it harder to get an appointment. I live in North Carolina by the way.

I cannot answer how competitive you will be for a nomination; however, you will never know until you try. Send applications to all available MOCs with the best resume possible. Even though there are no sports in your school, emphasize good points - leadership, other activities, and especially the time management required to earn both a diploma and AS degree at the same time while being very active in the organizations of which you are already a member. Are there competitive community sports in your area? If so, are you a member of any of those teams? The SAs look at sports for leadership as well as physical fitness. The SA's physical requirements are tough and they want to know that you have the ability to make it.

Depending on the MOC, they take into account your school and what is or is not available and look for you to go "outside the box" to seek the opportunities available elsewhere to better yourself.

DD spent the last two years of high school traveling 45 minutes each way in the afternoons to attend the college classes, then would have to rush back to high school for sports or band practices/games/events/etc.

Showing your determination and willingness to go the extra mile in one area can help make up for other areas. Work hard, find the opportunities you can and take advantage of them. Hopefully one or more of your MOCs will have personal interviews, which is the best place to explain why you would be the "best" choice for a nomination over others based on your accomplishments.

Best of luck.
 
It is time to eliminate principal nominations from Members of Congress. The subjective nature of them is grossly unfair to other applicants. It doesn’t eliminate the possibility of them gaining admission, but it surely restricts their path.


If you search principal nomination (PNoms) on this sit you’ll find evidence of people not in the top 10% of their class, kids with mid-range SAT’s, and others who were granted PNoms. They may meet the academy minimums for admissions, but may not be the best the Congressional district or state had to offer. So why would the MOC give them the PNom? Perhaps the kid was a great interviewee. Maybe there was a family hardship. Possibly the MOC knew the family. Who knows?


What I do know is that there are stellar kids passed over year after year in favor of special “picks” by the Congressman. A stellar kid behind a principal nominee may find another way get in, but not always.

So why is a PNom even an option for the MOC? Does the MOC know what the academy is looking for better than the academy itself? Some principal nominations have left me scratching my head. There are some ultra-competitive districts out there where principal nominees have been named. That just doesn’t seem fair to the other kids that are from different schools, with different backgrounds, and different resume’s. In my opinion it is time to take that power away from our MOC’s. Let the academies sort out their appointees without the interference of Congress.

And while I’m speechifying, why don’t all MOC’s publish their nominees? In my state, one senator and our Congressman used to publish. Now none do. Their picks can’t be scrutinized if not published. Nominating is their job. We pay them to do it. Therefore, I believe that we have the right to see who is nominated. I believe we also should have the right to know if a principal nominee has been selected. The politicians cite confidentiality concerns. Horse hooey. The kids they appoint will be attending on tax-payer dollars. We have a right to see and know whom the MOC’s deem worthy. If their choices are visible to all, there will be a much smaller chance of nepotism and political paybacks (although I don’t believe that happens often.)

Do academies benefit from principal nominations? I don’t think so. All this is my opinion, but shouldn’t principal nominations be abolished? Heck, maybe the Coast Guard Academy is right. Perhaps we should take the members of congress out of the nomination process altogether.
The nomination process is just another way the academies make sure that it is very difficult to gain appointment. I don't fault the congressman for not publishing the names of kids for you to "scrutinize".
 
The nomination process is just another way the academies make sure that it is very difficult to gain appointment. I don't fault the congressman for not publishing the names of kids for you to "scrutinize".

Really? There is enough secrecy in politics. If the MOC made good, honest choices, he should let his constituents see whom he selected as the most worthy. I see no reason not to publish. That is unless the MOC doesn't want to have to explain his choices.

And this thread is about principal nominations. IMO there is no reason EVER for a MOC to designate a principal nominee. If a kid stands out that much, surely the academies will recognize it.

Alaskan, you sure have some strong views. Do you also have strong experience?
 
Nominations are required by law...SAs (at least USNA) don't get involved with MOCs except to explain or clarify information at the MOC's request. I'm not sure how it's the academies making an appointment harder via nominations. Changing the nomination process (i.e. eliminating principal nominations) requires Congress to modify their own law...so that might be challenging to do.
 
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Really? There is enough secrecy in politics. If the MOC made good, honest choices, he should let his constituents see whom he selected as the most worthy. I see no reason not to publish. That is unless the MOC doesn't want to have to explain his choices.

And this thread is about principal nominations. IMO there is no reason EVER for a MOC to designate a principal nominee. If a kid stands out that much, surely the academies will recognize it.

I recall a past discussion about privacy issues concerning releasing names of nominees. I could see some challenges if the MOC has to get releases from candidates and their parents

A principle nomination allows a "deserving" candidate with a weakness to get an appointment. Why should the admissions office be the only one allow to decide who is more deserving than another?
 
I recall a past discussion about privacy issues concerning releasing names of nominees. I could see some challenges if the MOC has to get releases from candidates and their parents

A principle nomination allows a "deserving" candidate with a weakness to get an appointment. Why should the admissions office be the only one allow to decide who is more deserving than another?

I'll tell you why. Most MOC''s have a cursory nomination process that is much less stringent than the academies. A panel of interviewers can be wowed by a pretty applicant, an exceptional BS'er, a stud athlete, a rare diversity applicant, a hardship case, or the kid of a hero, first responder, or heaven forbid, the offspring of a big donor.

Surely there will be dissent from forum members about my frank opinion. The geographical requirements of incoming classes make congress a logical way to ensure a level class from across the country. I'm just saying that principal nominations are not only unnecessary, they're unfair to every other applicant for nomination. As noted earlier, I also am a proponent of transparency and the publishing the names of all than win nominations. Their permission is not needed to legally do so.

Disagree if you like. Politics is a cesspool right now. I fully realize that opinions are like politicians. Everybody has one.
 
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I'll tell you why. Most MOC''s have a cursory nomination process that is much less stringent than the academies. A panel of interviewers can be wowed by a pretty applicant, an exceptional BS'er, a stud athlete, a rare diversity applicant, a hardship case, or the kid of a hero, first responder, or heaven forbid, the offspring of a big donor.

So does the Admissions office . . .
 
Now, can anyone here tell us why congressional nominations were added in the first place (they weren't always a part of this process)?

Hint: politics.

Not leadership. Not some unique understanding of leadership needs by members of congress. Not because something was immediately broken in the system.

Anyone? Anyone?


One step further, if there was such an inherent need, how did the Coast Guard Academy, founded in 1876, avoid it but the Air Force Academy, founded in 1954 didn't? Size you say? And yet the comparatively sized Merchant Marine Academy, founded in 1943 (in the Dept. of Transportation, while the Coast Guard was in the Treasury Dept... All before the Department of Defense existed) didn't escape the need?

Hello LineInTheSand:

A few days ago I was reading a good article on the USA Today website; it was titled "Pride and Patronage." It has some excellent information about the nomination/appointment process. Within that article was a link to another piece named "Congress and the Academies: a History of Patronage." The second article has information that relates directly to your question. The story starts with a corrupt California Congressman and his son going to jail for trying to sell a nomination. That part of the story certainly illustrates how the nomination process can be corrupted. However, based on this article, the current system started out as a way to delegate the nomination process from the President to his Secretary of War to the Members of Congress. This allowed for a more geographically diverse candidate pool...and removed a job from the President's plate. The author argues that the most significant reform to the process occurred in 1950, when many MOC's were convinced by West Point to simply send slates of 10 qualified candidates, rather than "earmarking" a principal candidate. He also indicates that most congressman now use the 10 candidate slate.

I think that the most telling part of the story is the quote from a congressman in the second to last paragraph of the commentary. ' "I knew the odds were long, because members of Congress generally don't like to surrender benefits or powers that they have," said McHugh, who retired in 1993 after nine terms in Congress. "And the academies have a vested interest, too: What they want is buy-in from members of Congress. They want appropriations to the academies. They want Congress to have a stake in the process." ' As we all know, Congress controls the purse strings. Therefore, Congressional buy-in and backing is a must for the academies to thrive. Based on that, I believe the current process is viewed as mutually beneficial, albeit flawed, by both the Congress and the Academies.

Below is a link to the article:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s-congressional-nominations-history/15660721/

JDB
 
And yet, the Coast Guard Academy has survived since 1876 with Congressional nominations, and the Merchant Marine Academy has struggled WITH Congressional nominations.
 
Any method of selection will have its drawbacks. Admissions at the academy is just looking at information on a piece of paper --so many nuances to the depth of a person are lost in the written word. And the writer of those words won't always be the candidate. The panel for our MOC consisted of 5-6 military and professional leaders. It is overwhelming and intimidating to any kid fresh out of high school--how they handle it can be insightful. Leadership is about far more than grades and test scores the brightest star doesn't always make a great leader. Heck I know some truly brilliant people--I wouldn't trust them to lead an AYSO soccer practice let alone anyone with a gun. Yes some amazing candidates are lost in the process. And some that shouldn't be there slip by. But those who don't get in have other great opportunities for success and leadership. And those that don't belong generally leave on their own.

Next topic please.
 
I know this thread has kind of died out, but I wanted to comment about nominations. Some believe that some MOC's are playing their own game with nominations. Especially Principal nominations. Getting someone in who "possibly" wouldn't have gotten in with a normal nomination. The truth is, the academy is playing that same game too. This is why NONE of the appointments are actually charged against the slate, until basic training is over. The academy looks at who will actually start the academic year, and they figure out what slots to fill. But, sometimes the academy wants an individual in the academy, but that individual wasn't able to get an appropriate nomination.

Example. An individual they want, has a presidential nomination. That's the only nomination they have. But another individual who has a presidential nomination, also has a number of other nominations. The academy gives the 2nd applicant an appointment, but doesn't use their presidential nomination. They use the MOC's nomination. This way they can use one of the 100 presidential slots where THEY WANT THEM.

This isn't as much of an issue today as it use to be just a few years ago. Not too long ago, it was common for the academy to give appointments to those that had presidential nominations, or other NON-MOC nominations in October-November. This is BEFORE the moc's even interviewed and gave nominations. But many times, the academy would CHANGE where they charged an appointment. The person still received their appointment that they got in Oct-Nov, but in January, the academy would TAKE BACK the charge to the presidential nomination for this individual, and change it to the MOC. This way they could re-allocate the presidential slot to someone they wanted who didn't receive a nomination from their MOC.

As an ALO, this was difficult. Was my allegiance to the academy or to my MOC. My MOC's started catching on to this scam. They realized that if an individual actually had an APPOINTMENT in Oct-Nov, (NOT AN LOA, but an ACTUAL APPOINTMENT), then the MOC's agreed to NOT GIVE that person a nomination. This way the state got at least their 3 appointments, plus one of their constituents got an appointment with the Presidential. So they had 4. Instead of only 3 because the academy changed it around. When my son received his appointment, our MOC hadn't really figured out this game yet. My son had an actual appointment at the end of Oct, beginning of November. Our Representative and senators called for him to interview for nominations. I went and spoke with them and told them that my son ALREADY HAD AN APPOINTMENT. And that they were guaranteed 3 more appointments if they DIDN'T give my son one. But if they gave my son a nomination, there was a good chance that the academy would SWAP his Presidential nomination which got him the appointment, with one of the MOC's nomination and using the Presidential some other place. Thus, leaving the state with only 3 appointments instead of 4. They understood what I said, and they agreed that my son didn't need another nomination. Mind you, this only applied because he an an actual appointment. Not an LOA or other "Conditional" situation.

Because of the high unemployment and such, the academy doesn't really offer early (Oct-Nov) appointments any longer. But this isn't to say that they don't move around nominations. Obviously they can't use a nomination on someone who didn't receive it. E.g. Can't use a representative nomination from georgia, on a kid from Florida. But that's not to say that they don't move around charges for individuals who receive more than 1 nomination. They do.

You definitely need to apply for all the nominations you can get. In the end, you need to worry about you. Don't worry about your state, MOC, other applicants, etc. Get as many nominations as you can and increase your chances for an appointment. But I'm all for the Representatives and Senators having as much say so as possible in getting appointments. The academy already has 100% control over 50% of the incoming class. I don't want the academy to have 100% control. This is the senator's and representative's responsibility. They need to be accountable. And they need to be able to have a tool at their disposal that allows them to choose a principal nominee if they think they have a definite stand-out applicant who they believe deserves to be at the academy; and they want to ENSURE that they get in. No possibility of not being selected.

I know there are some that think the Principal nomination basically encourages associated forms of nepotism. That the MOC is going to "Sell" the Principal nomination to a high donor, or to a friend's child, etc. But the truth is, while this is possible, the few MOC that use the Principal nomination, use it for the right reason. Because of out of the 10 applicants they are nominating, they have one that they truly believes is the "Best of the Best", and they want to ensure that S/He gets an appointment and isn't passed over because of the academy's "Motives". Whatever they may be.
 
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