12 quit on I-Day

Parents are confused THROUGHOUT their kids' time at academies.

My mom, who loved that I was at the Coast Guard Academy, had no idea that 1. I had a rank (even if it was low) and 2. was in the military.

This became particularly problematic going through Canadian customs in Victoria, B.C. I was on a ship my senior summer in Port Angeles, Wa. and had been to Victoria a few weeks earlier with a classmate of mine. My parents were in town to visit and decided we should to to Victoria for the weekend.

When asked if we had been there before my parents said no, and I said yes. When asked why, I said I was in the military and stationed on a ship in Port Angeles for the summer.

My mom immediate replied (all in front of the Canadian customs officer) "No he's NOT! He's a student."

Well, that made for a bumpy ride, as I explained how confused she was.... but we laugh about it today (and way later the day it happened).


I was an officer for five years, and I'm pretty sure my mom was never really sure what my rank was. She had an idea what I did, and she and my dad were proud, but some things about it just confused her.

This happens to parents ALL THE TIME.... once you're "experienced" in this odd world, you pick up on it, but parents rarely realize if they're wrong or not.... and honestly the ins and outs of it are pretty confusing.
 
Finally, to the above poster who asked why the interview process doesn't weed out these folks -- remember that interviews usually are 1-hr events conducted by a BGO. We aren't interrogators. We ask the questions but if kids lie to us, there's not a lot we can do about ferreting out the "truth." Also, some kids really believe USNA is right for them -- sometimes even after NASS and/or CVW. However, once a plebe, they realize that being there day in and day out is very different than being there for 5 days or watching someone else be there. There really is no way to predict when that will happen.

I am sure BGOs are similar to FFRs in terms of experience and training - it varies.

I personally don't think that interviewer should be the gate keeper. We are only human. Why bother having an application process if an interviewer can determine a candidate is worth or unworhty of appointnment.

For me, BGO/FFR/ALO are to assist in the admissions process, not determine who gets in or not.
 
LITS -
It is not just parents who get confused. My DH was active duty Air Force, then went in the AF Reserves, then went active duty Coast Guard. The difference in rank thru me off constantly. Plus having to explain HOW he was in the Coast Guard. I didn't even try to explain it to my parents - just told them he had a job and be thankful - they were. We were even stationed at the Coast Guard Academy and the ranks of the cadets and Coast Guard terminology never quite sunk in. My DS is now at the Air Force Academy and I am really trying to learn the right words. At least I am more comfortable with AF terms. My DH left the Coast Guard and eventually retired from the Air Force Reserves. Our other DS is a Marine ROTC student and their terms confuse me too. I am not old and feeble and consider myself fairly intelligent, but I think the military prides itself with acronyms and abbreviations to keep everything a little top secret.

Sorry - realize this went way off the original post. Just had to chime in.
 
And now for something completey different...

We often talk about those that leave and why. It's actually more amazing to think about who stays...

I can't remember the hard numbers, but the average college in the US graduates what.... 50% or so after 5 years? The SA's typically fall north of 80% overall graduation rate for 4 years?


Young people will always change their minds more often and in more dramatic ways than those of us with gray in our beards. That's reality. So given everything a cadet/mid has to go through mentally, physically, all of the pressures and incredibly high academic rigor involved, it's amazing so many of them succeed today. That our SA's can set the bar so high, and still manage to graduate at a rate far higher than traditional colleges is a testament to our Academy programs, and the amazing young people that attend them... that's what I am amazed at.
 
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We often talk about those that leave and why. It's actually more amazing to think about who stays...

I can't remember the hard numbers, but the average college in the US graduates what.... 50% or so after 5 years? The SA's typically fall north of 80% overall graduation rate for 4 years?


Young people will always change their minds more often and in more dramatic ways than those of us with gray in our beards. That's reality. So given everything a cadet/mid has to go through mentally, physically, all of the pressures and incredibly high academic rigor involved, it's amazing so many of them succeed today. That our SA's can set the bar so high, and still manage to graduate at a rate far higher than traditional colleges is a testament to our Academy programs, and the amazing young people that attend them... that's what I am amazed at.

+1! I'm 100% with you, MedB! :thumb:
 
++1, MedB!1

I love that "glass is 80% full" take on this!
 
One really cannot compare the four year graduation rate of an SA to that of any traditional college. Simply because there is no option to stretch out your college years as long as you wish by continuing to pay tuition. If you do not meet the many standards and deadlines required of you, you are disenrolled from an SA. There is no five year plan, with the rare exceptions of medical situations and LDS missions.
 
One really cannot compare the four year graduation rate of an SA to that of any traditional college. Simply because there is no option to stretch out your college years as long as you wish by continuing to pay tuition. If you do not meet the many standards and deadlines required of you, you are disenrolled from an SA. There is no five year plan, with the rare exceptions of medical situations and LDS missions.

I'd agree with that statement.

Even when you look at the 4 year graduation rate for ROTC cadets that are contracted, the rate is very high due to the same restrictions.

There are many civilian college students that have to work, sometimes long hours to pay for school, many of these students will not graduate in 4 years and it's not due to a lack of commitment or drive. Some students will decide to change majors half way through, an option cadets don't have due to having to graduate in a required timeline.

Granted there are those that seem to be career students, but it is usually by choice.

For ROTC cadets at civilian schools, getting all the required classes needed to graduate in 4 years can sometimes be a challenge. Thank goodness for those students that take their time or there would not be enough room in these required classes. Registration can be a real juggling act sometimes to be able to meet the 4 year graduation deadline.
 
just curious about this since we are on this topic...

if one starts to outprocess and decides not to follow through, are there any repercussions or notes put on their folders/files to that effect? will that be part of their permanent record?

will that decision affect, lets say, pilot training slots?
 
One really cannot compare the four year graduation rate of an SA to that of any traditional college. Simply because there is no option to stretch out your college years as long as you wish by continuing to pay tuition.

Hi Parental,

Unless I am misunderstanding statistics (entirely possible!), the 5 year inclusive graduation rate is even more telling.... not less telling. In other words, the overall graduation rate goes UP the longer the timeline; REALLY bad at 4 years, bad at 5 years or less, slightly less bad at 6 years or less.

According to the last studies I saw, the best-case numbers for traditional colleges averaged out at ~60% students graduating with a bachelors in 6 years or less. That is still some 20-25 percentage points lower than the SAs.... which to your point, have the "handicap" of not being able to stretch things out in order to graduate even more kids.
 
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One really cannot compare the four year graduation rate of an SA to that of any traditional college. Simply because there is no option to stretch out your college years as long as you wish by continuing to pay tuition. If you do not meet the many standards and deadlines required of you, you are disenrolled from an SA. There is no five year plan, with the rare exceptions of medical situations and LDS missions.

Generally true but I think there is a potential inverse correlation between acceptance rate and % of students who complete their degree in 4 years (i.e., low acceptance rate; high 4-yr graduation rate). Check out rankings on 4 year completion rates for students matriculating in fall 2006:
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

IMHO, high achieving students strive to finish in 4 years regardless of the institution they attend. The data via the link shows USNA 28th on the list in the same range as Ivies, Duke, UVA, Notre Dame, etc. Interesting, if nothing else.
 
I get what you mean MedB, but it’s not really an understanding of statistics or not……it is comparing apples and orangutans, which you just cannot do. You are brought into a service academy with the very clear understanding that it is a four year program. That is it; no other option is offered. They bring you in summer of 2014 because they need you to commission in spring of 2018 so the service will make their numbers for new officers. This exactly follows what Jcleppe said about contracted ROTC students as well.

I don’t quite understand anyone being impressed with the four year graduation percentage of a service academy, as that is the only option.

(Not to sound rude; I’ve just been around it too long to think of it in any other terms. :wink:)
 
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I think it's a testament to the excellent job of the admissions process in getting the right people into USNA. The other option to finishing in 4 years at an SA is separation and getting a degree somewhere else.

USMA and USAFA are both below 80% in the data I referenced previously.

By the way, I hear you that it's not really a choice not to finish in 4 years at an SA. I would argue that it's not really a choice for most people to not finish at a school when it costs $60k/year....:smile:
 
Its a travesty if anyone doesn't show up for I-Day, or quits on the walk in. I wish there were a way to measure the hearts of young men and women in the interview/admission process, for there are many deserving who wouldn't let this honor slip away. And just as bad, in my mind, at least, is the fact that USNA won't fill those positions with those people who truly want to serve.

The country loses all the way around....

Sorry, but I find it difficult to agree.

1) If someone truly wants to serve, they will find a way. There are numerous commissioning routes and all produce quality officers. Those who want to serve, will do so.

2) I would hesitate to call it a 'travesty' that someone does not show up or decides on day 1 that the SA life is not for them. Rather I would say it is to their credit that they recognize this fact early, and before they expend too many hours and months trying to be something which they are not. A lot of cadet candidates don't really recognize the commitment they are making until it stares them in the face. Then when reality hits, they know they need to not walk through the door. I wish I had as much courage early in life.

3) I would say that SA attendance is a privilege, not an honor. It is to their credit that they have the character, academics, and physical mixture that makes them a qualified candidate. In that sense they can feel honored; but the reality is that SA cadets are raising their hands and volunteering to go to war and possibly get killed defense of our country. They may not agree with the policy, but they chose to agree to follow orders from above. That is the reason these kids are heros. The only "privilege" they receive is being immersed in living the military life with minimal privileges at first, in order to better understand how the enlisted ranks they will eventually command will think and act. That experience may make them better leaders, but more importantly my observation is that it brings them confidence to get through anything they will face in life - both in and out of the military.

4) Lastly, I do not think the choice to leave a SA is a question of the heart (IMO). There are a lot of new cadets/swabs/zoomies/plebes who are committed to serve, focused on staying, would like to stay, but who realize that the pressure cooker is just too difficult for them. Better for them to realize that early rather than in their 2C year after commitment. Anyone who gets an appointment has already excelled. But the SA life exposes any weaknesses and makes cadets fail at something. That is a mentally difficult thing for someone who has always succeeded to go through, and sadly our current culture of giving trophies for everyone doesn't help kids develop the mental toughness that the greatest generation exhibited.

Do I think it is sad to see new cadets leave on request on Day 1? Yes I do. I would like them all to stick it out a week to feel the confidence that comes when they begin to do things they didn't think they could do. I would like them all to look beyond the yelling as criticism and personal attack, and instead see it as corrective discipline and a reminder they should always pay attention to details, consider how their personal behavior affects others, and that it develops in them a mental toughness to stand up under stress that few of their non-SA peers will ever develop. But I also understand why they want to leave, and why some act on those feelings. And given the choice, I'll cut them the slack and give them the doubt.

Please do not take this as an attack or in offense; it is just an opinion from a parent who has observed both cadets and grads in awe. The more I interact, the more I realize how great these young adults are.
 
I think there are lots of ways to serve, although the path may not necessarily be crystal clear at 17 or 18.

My Dad had a Plebe under his responsibility who was the son and grandson of Grads and both had made senior General. He wanted to be there, but over the year, he realized he wanted to serve as a physician. Dad wrote a letter to the active Flag Dad and explained that his son was an excellent man, but would make a better physician, and he asked the Dad to give his blessings to withdrawal. That was a gutsy thing to do for a upper class Cadet.

40 years the Dr tracked down Dad to thank him, and to let him know what a distinguished career he had had serving our people as a civilian physician.

Lots of ways to serve. That exactly how isn't clear at 17 or 18 shouldn't surprise anyone, nor should their alternate path be dissed.
 
"I would say that SA attendance is a privilege, not an honor."

One of the best quotes i have seen on this Board.


Reminds me when parents of SA's students complain about their kids not getting free upgrades, perks, free baggage fees or front of the line privileges. I promise the true front lines warriors don't even let on they served. Wearing the uniform is about serving your country not about 10% of at Lowes...

Sorry my quick rant, out....
 
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I don’t quite understand anyone being impressed with the four year graduation percentage of a service academy, as that is the only option.

Hi Parental,

While, I understand your point about a four year expectation at an SA, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the SA graduation rate not being impressive by comparison.

Please remember that the 5 year and 6 year stats for other colleges INCLUDE the 4 year graduates as well; it is a cumulative number. The fact is our SA's even with all their additional requirements and expectations on young people, graduate a higher percentage of kids with degress in 4 years, then the average college does in 4 years or less, 5 years or less or even 6 years or less.
 
Hi Parental,

While, I understand your point about a four year expectation at an SA, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the SA graduation rate not being impressive by comparison.

Please remember that the 5 year and 6 year stats for other colleges INCLUDE the 4 year graduates as well; it is a cumulative number. The fact is our SA's even with all their additional requirements and expectations on young people, graduate a higher percentage of kids with degress in 4 years, then the average college does in 4 years or less, 5 years or less or even 6 years or less.


+1
 
Just curious after reading all of these posts, does anyone know for certain if USNA fills the slots that are opened in the first week? I know of one candidate who was turned away on IDay, and is now going to the Foundation School (which I know nothing about). They will be in Class of 2019. It is tough to see anyone not report/drop/be dropped. I wonder if we will ever hear the correct answer. I have seen the class size listed at many different amounts. Was the final number 1192 or 1186? or something else?

Best wishes to all. I am anxiously awaiting word from our Plebe!

Had my mid look up 2018 class size. 1200 currently down to 1191.
 
I thought they started lower than the previous classes - 1190???
 
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