2nd Thoughts

[billyb]

I am the guy that you aspire to be. I never tried to build my "brand" and I enjoyed my time at West Point. After I got out of the Army, I worked hard and am entrepreneurial. Things have turned-out very well. I am telling you this so you know that I understand your mindset and where you are coming from.

2 pieces of advice (short and sweet):

1. You asked for advice so be polite when people disagree with you.
2. Don't go to USMA.

I graduated from USMA, but honestly I don't think it is for you. You don't have to be gung-ho military, but you must want to be a servant leader to do well (and to do right by your soldiers). You sound like a "me" leader and not a "us" leader. Not a great fit for a military officer.

Good luck.

 

[LineInTheSand]

LineInTheSand, when you fulfilled your active duty commitment did you/do you feel that you still have plenty of time to "hustle" as a man in your prime? I'm scared of the middle-class existence. I want so much more. When I say this I'm not knocking anyone- in fact, I wish I could be content with a nice 6-figure salary and the picket fence. Sadly, I am not.

I'm going to take two shots at "hustle"....

1. Are you talking about women, dating, hooking up, etc? If that's the "hustle" then, no, I was dating the same person for years, got engaged my last full year in, and married a year after I left the Coast Guard.

If that's the hustle we're talking about.... that hustle isn't based on age or "prime".


2. Are you talking about hustle in the work environment? If that's the hustle you're talking about, just after learning the Coast Guard, I finished my master's program. I have the nice 6-figure salary, but no picket fence. If you're talking about "hustle" for a 7+ figure salary, easier said that done, and good luck doing that before 30.


I don't think the Coast Guard made me a better person. I'm the same person I was. I think the Coast Guard, and my time at the Coast Guard Academy, helped me roll with the punches, prioritize and understand "responsibility". It certainly helped me appreciate certain things.

Where I find myself today is a combination of my own intelligence and hard work, combined with a little luck, timing, opportunity and the investment of others in me. Some of that came from the service. Some of that came from family and friends. All of it, I believe, came from God. And all of it can be taken away in a heartbeat.

In the end, it's a long, twisted path with ups and downs. West Point will teach you some great things. Your time in the Army will influence what you believe is important, and you will learn some interesting lessons from both success and failure.

But neither my time in the Coast Guard (which I did value) nor your possible time in the Army, will make-or-break you.

To get through Swab Summer at CGA I had to want it, and I had to have the support and assistance of my classmates. If you don't want it, it's very difficult to get through some of the less "fun" parts of your time there.

But like I said, I think you've already made the decision, and just need to realize it.

 

[MemberLG]

I have been offered an appointment and have accepted the offer. R Day is in 4 weeks and I feel that I need to be 100% at that point with no second thoughts. I have no desire to be an officer for the aspect of "serving." My desire to be an officer stems from my idea that it will be a great opportunity to get great leadership and management training. Thanks for the input!

Don't tell me that in your short life so far that you have only done things that you are 100% sure of. Weren't you 100% sure about West Point when you reapplied. If so soon or later you will make decisions either less than 100% percent certainty. On a side note, the military should teach you how to make decisions with limited information.

As much as I preach service to country, deep inside I feel that most cadet candidates don't really know what they are saying or committing to. What make soldiers make the ultimate sacrifice is a split second decision. Not all solders jump on a grenade to save their buddies. Not all soldiers fight until death to save their buddies.

Hope, desire, self-esteem along will not get you far life. Many candidates told me how committed they are and they will do anything to attend West Point, but they can't back it up accomplishments of couldn't beat their competition. So going back to your plan and about 100% being sure, how confident are you of achieving you goals?

My theory on why you are not sure - you are sacred or afraid of West Point, so you are trying yo justify to yourself not going to West Point is okay. Take a leap of faith. Take one day at a day if you do go to West Point. A friend of mine at West Point was like you, couldn't wait until his service obligation was over. So he could attend a top B school and make a lots of money. He is still in. Another officer I know left West Point after a semester, did ROTC, great Army career, tells me hindsight he should have stayed.


At this point, you should go to West Point as West Point is not going to offer your slot to someone else and unless you are already in a good college not likely for you to start in a good college this fall.

 

[GoBlue1984]

If you don't want to be an Army officer, please let West Point know so someone who DOES want to be one can have your slot. We should not be convincing you to attend; if you are not sold on the idea, don't go.

Mom3Boys' DS would be thrilled to take your place, but his commitment to serve as an Army Officer means he will go ROTC for now and try again next year giving up a year or more of college credit (if I remember correctly).

My thoughts? You won't last plebe year. I estimate that in the cold, gray of February you will say "Gee, I have not grown as a person" and you'll be headed home.

If you really believe and feel what you've expressed, I'm not sure you will last through BEAST. My DS dreamed of USMA and serving in the Army for years. He told me for the first three days after R-Day, he constantly questioned if he had made the right decision. In his class, 15 new cadets left before AY started. The gray of February is real: it is cold, overcast, and boring. Recent statistics are that 10% will voluntarily leave before end of Plebe year; 15% before graduation (historically it has been 20%), not to mention that many will be involuntarily separated because WP is demanding beyond compare. With a RIF underway, the Army does not need as many officers and is giving fewer second chances at the academy or in the regular army.

You sound like a "me" leader and not a "us" leader. Not a great fit for a military officer.

Good luck.

USMA and Army is all about SERVANT LEADERSHIP. You can't get that training and emphasis anywhere else in the country. You have to learn to follow before you can lead. BEAST, CFT, and the company structure is all about teamwork and "us." It may not seem fair, but you are held responsible for the failure of someone under you because when the team fails, you fail. That is why they fire the manager instead of the 27 players who couldn't get the big hit.

I'm just afraid of being arrogant and thinking that I know more than I really do (which isn't worth more than a cup of coffee). Honestly, the military stuff sounds fun; beast sounds fun; I will learn a lot; I will get to play football. ... in fact, I wish I could be content with a nice 6-figure salary and the picket fence. Sadly, I am not.

If you think BEAST will be "fun," then you are being arrogant. Being in a gas chamber and having to take off your mask and breath tear gas for three minutes does not sound like fun; crawling through the mud does not sound like fun; Rock Climbing and repelling do sound like fun, but having to do pushups because your squad wasn't first to the top, doesn't sound like fun; rucking 15 miles carrying a 40lb pack after jumping off at 4AM with four hours of sleep on the ground, doesn't sound like fun. Playing NCAA Div 1 level football may be fun when you win, but the 5AM two-a-day practices on top of five or six USMA core engineering type classes sounds like work - not fun. Winning might be fun but when you work really hard and then lose to teams where the other players are taking three or four light load classes with a tutor helping at the beckon call is discouraging, not fun.


Unlike others, I'm not going to say you shouldn't go to USMA but what I will say is this:

1) Think long and hard about what you are entering into, and make sure you are doing it for the right reason(s). If you aren't sure what those reasons are, maybe this isn't the right choice for you. West Point is prestigious but as my DS stated during Plebe year, the prestige wears off quickly. You have earned the right to make this decision so make it carefully.

2) You will find posts on these boards of some who decided to not accept an appointment, and lived to regret it. You will also find posts of some who accepted appointments and found their time or military experience disappointing. But you will also find many who made it through and who have never regretted either going to USMA, serving in Army or sister branches, or putting up with less than desirable living conditions or experiences. They call it the long grey line and just like the veterans of WWII, your Army brethren will be the closest brothers you will ever have. DS says that there is a bond with those from his BEAST squad that still exists to this day.

3) Last thought: don't let the fear of what it will be like be the thing that dissuades you. You will never know what you can do or accomplish until you are pushed to the limit. When you go through tough experiences, it gives you strength to draw on when you are faced with difficulties and challenges which come about as a normal course of life. John McCain attributes his time at USNA for giving him the strength to endure the beatings and torture at the hands of the VC. You may never be a POW, but when your job is pulled from underneath you while you have kids in college and just after buying a new car, you need that same fortitude to get up in the morning to find a way to pay your bills for that month. If you endure West Point, you should be able to endure anything.

 

[Positivity]

@Positivity

Didn't attend an academy nor does my NROTC MO son who is now at OCS and will commission next year.

My son has never once mentioned serving for "liberty and freedom". In fact I don't think I've ever heard those words cross his lips.

You appear to think your second thoughts need to be handled in the next 4 weeks. I expect your second thoughts will continue for the next 4 years. It's the nature of the beast (pun intended).

You say your worried about spending your prime years in the military and will be an old man of 28 when you get out. Let me inform you that you don't even begin to hit your prime years until your 30s at the very least. Up until then you're still earning your stripes wherever you go.

I agree with LITS that it's gotta be fun and not a burden.

One of the maxims T. J. (Stonewall) Jackson had written down in his little book of maxims is "You can be whatever you choose to be". The choice is yours. Good luck with it!

Great input as always Kinnem- you've given me something to think about.

 

[Positivity]

Have you considered moving to some other country? Some country where freedom was not bought and paid for by the middle class?

Thanks for contributing.

 

[Positivity]

I am the guy that you aspire to be. I never tried to build my "brand" and I enjoyed my time at West Point. After I got out of the Army, I worked hard and am entrepreneurial. Things have turned-out very well. I am telling you this so you know that I understand your mindset and where you are coming from.

2 pieces of advice (short and sweet):

1. You asked for advice so be polite when people disagree with you.
2. Don't go to USMA.

I graduated from USMA, but honestly I don't think it is for you. You don't have to be gung-ho military, but you must want to be a servant leader to do well (and to do right by your soldiers). You sound like a "me" leader and not a "us" leader. Not a great fit for a military officer.

Good luck.

I am anything but a "me" leader, but I also understand this life is MY story and I have to appreciate the limited time I have. I am curious to hear more. Going to shoot you a PM. Great input.

 

[Positivity]

I'm going to take two shots at "hustle"....

1. Are you talking about women, dating, hooking up, etc? If that's the "hustle" then, no, I was dating the same person for years, got engaged my last full year in, and married a year after I left the Coast Guard.

If that's the hustle we're talking about.... that hustle isn't based on age or "prime".


2. Are you talking about hustle in the work environment? If that's the hustle you're talking about, just after learning the Coast Guard, I finished my master's program. I have the nice 6-figure salary, but no picket fence. If you're talking about "hustle" for a 7+ figure salary, easier said that done, and good luck doing that before 30.


I don't think the Coast Guard made me a better person. I'm the same person I was. I think the Coast Guard, and my time at the Coast Guard Academy, helped me roll with the punches, prioritize and understand "responsibility". It certainly helped me appreciate certain things.

Where I find myself today is a combination of my own intelligence and hard work, combined with a little luck, timing, opportunity and the investment of others in me. Some of that came from the service. Some of that came from family and friends. All of it, I believe, came from God. And all of it can be taken away in a heartbeat.

In the end, it's a long, twisted path with ups and downs. West Point will teach you some great things. Your time in the Army will influence what you believe is important, and you will learn some interesting lessons from both success and failure.

But neither my time in the Coast Guard (which I did value) nor your possible time in the Army, will make-or-break you.

To get through Swab Summer at CGA I had to want it, and I had to have the support and assistance of my classmates. If you don't want it, it's very difficult to get through some of the less "fun" parts of your time there.

But like I said, I think you've already made the decision, and just need to realize it.

No, I was not referring to females, but to the work side of things. Thanks for taking the time to offer advice.

 

[Positivity]

Don't tell me that in your short life so far that you have only done things that you are 100% sure of. Weren't you 100% sure about West Point when you reapplied. If so soon or later you will make decisions either less than 100% percent certainty. On a side note, the military should teach you how to make decisions with limited information.

As much as I preach service to country, deep inside I feel that most cadet candidates don't really know what they are saying or committing to. What make soldiers make the ultimate sacrifice is a split second decision. Not all solders jump on a grenade to save their buddies. Not all soldiers fight until death to save their buddies.

Hope, desire, self-esteem along will not get you far life. Many candidates told me how committed they are and they will do anything to attend West Point, but they can't back it up accomplishments of couldn't beat their competition. So going back to your plan and about 100% being sure, how confident are you of achieving you goals?

My theory on why you are not sure - you are sacred or afraid of West Point, so you are trying yo justify to yourself not going to West Point is okay. Take a leap of faith. Take one day at a day if you do go to West Point. A friend of mine at West Point was like you, couldn't wait until his service obligation was over. So he could attend a top B school and make a lots of money. He is still in. Another officer I know left West Point after a semester, did ROTC, great Army career, tells me hindsight he should have stayed.


At this point, you should go to West Point as West Point is not going to offer your slot to someone else and unless you are already in a good college not likely for you to start in a good college this fall.

I felt 100% sure of my decision when I re-applied, and up till about 2 months ago. You helped me dial it in I believe- I feel that I may be scared of missing opportunities. This sounds silly when I say it, and pretty vague. Thanks for your input.

 

[Positivity]

Mom3Boys' DS would be thrilled to take your place, but his commitment to serve as an Army Officer means he will go ROTC for now and try again next year giving up a year or more of college credit (if I remember correctly).

I also attended college for a year and re-applied. Made it the second time.


If you really believe and feel what you've expressed, I'm not sure you will last through BEAST. My DS dreamed of USMA and serving in the Army for years. He told me for the first three days after R-Day, he constantly questioned if he had made the right decision. In his class, 15 new cadets left before AY started. The gray of February is real: it is cold, overcast, and boring. Recent statistics are that 10% will voluntarily leave before end of Plebe year; 15% before graduation (historically it has been 20%), not to mention that many will be involuntarily separated because WP is demanding beyond compare. With a RIF underway, the Army does not need as many officers and is giving fewer second chances at the academy or in the regular army.

Good to know.


USMA and Army is all about SERVANT LEADERSHIP. You can't get that training and emphasis anywhere else in the country. You have to learn to follow before you can lead. BEAST, CFT, and the company structure is all about teamwork and "us." It may not seem fair, but you are held responsible for the failure of someone under you because when the team fails, you fail. That is why they fire the manager instead of the 27 players who couldn't get the big hit.

I understand this concept and see nothing unfair with it.


If you think BEAST will be "fun," then you are being arrogant. Being in a gas chamber and having to take off your mask and breath tear gas for three minutes does not sound like fun; crawling through the mud does not sound like fun; Rock Climbing and repelling do sound like fun, but having to do pushups because your squad wasn't first to the top, doesn't sound like fun; rucking 15 miles carrying a 40lb pack after jumping off at 4AM with four hours of sleep on the ground, doesn't sound like fun. Playing NCAA Div 1 level football may be fun when you win, but the 5AM two-a-day practices on top of five or six USMA core engineering type classes sounds like work - not fun. Winning might be fun but when you work really hard and then lose to teams where the other players are taking three or four light load classes with a tutor helping at the beckon call is discouraging, not fun.

Of course, I understand it will be difficult. How difficult I obviously don't know until I experience it. The arrogance comment was referring to me thinking I know more than older, wiser people around me that are encouraging me to attend. Before it gets addressed, no, I am not attending for someone else. Really good input about football. Thanks.

Unlike others, I'm not going to say you shouldn't go to USMA but what I will say is this:

1) Think long and hard about what you are entering into, and make sure you are doing it for the right reason(s). If you aren't sure what those reasons are, maybe this isn't the right choice for you. West Point is prestigious but as my DS stated during Plebe year, the prestige wears off quickly. You have earned the right to make this decision so make it carefully.

Noted.

2) You will find posts on these boards of some who decided to not accept an appointment, and lived to regret it. You will also find posts of some who accepted appointments and found their time or military experience disappointing. But you will also find many who made it through and who have never regretted either going to USMA, serving in Army or sister branches, or putting up with less than desirable living conditions or experiences. They call it the long grey line and just like the veterans of WWII, your Army brethren will be the closest brothers you will ever have. DS says that there is a bond with those from his BEAST squad that still exists to this day.

Noted.

3) Last thought: don't let the fear of what it will be like be the thing that dissuades you. You will never know what you can do or accomplish until you are pushed to the limit. When you go through tough experiences, it gives you strength to draw on when you are faced with difficulties and challenges which come about as a normal course of life. John McCain attributes his time at USNA for giving him the strength to endure the beatings and torture at the hands of the VC. You may never be a POW, but when your job is pulled from underneath you while you have kids in college and just after buying a new car, you need that same fortitude to get up in the morning to find a way to pay your bills for that month. If you endure West Point, you should be able to endure anything.

Thank-you for posting- has given me a lot to think about.

 

[Jcleppe]

Thanks for contributing.

Well, you sort of walked right into that one.

If you believe a nice 6 figure salary is the bulk of the middle class then you need to review your economics class.

I'm scared of the middle-class existence. I want so much more. When I say this I'm not knocking anyone- in fact, I wish I could be content with a nice 6-figure salary and the picket fence. Sadly, I am not.

From a practical side of things, think twice or even three time about going to WP. I'm not saying this because you somehow don't deserve it because your not fully committed, quite the opposite, you have earned your appointment. I'm speaking from a purely practical point of view.

You want to be successful, 7 figures successful, that's great, not easy but a fine goal non the less. My suggestion, which I would give to my own son if he were in your place, is to go to College, study your area of interest. Spend the summers at different internships that are in your area of study to get experience on how it all works, soak up all the knowledge you can. Either go straight for your masters after graduation or start on your way in the business world.

If you go to WP you will have that 5 year obligation, those that graduate from college will have a 5 year jump on you. One other thing to consider, does WP offer the degree that you think you will need to reach the level of success you are looking for. While WP has a great network, so do other schools. The one thing you won't be able to do at WP is internships during the summer, at least not the kind you will need to reach your goals.

Lastly, you will not be the only person leaving the military after your 5 years, there is a lot of competition for jobs among those Captains just getting out. Unless you have something to step right into that will give you the success you want, you will have to start with whatever you can find. Using those 5 years right out of college may give you a big head start. While the pay is not bad as an officer, it's nowhere near what your looking for.

Again this is just a practical suggestion.

 

[Positivity]

Well, you sort of walked right into that one.

If you believe a nice 6 figure salary is the bulk of the middle class then you need to review your economics class.

Fair enough, but the ego was unneeded. My knowledge of economics is lacking, yes, but I did not say the "bulk." Perhaps I should have said Upper middle class.

From a practical side of things, think twice or even three time about going to WP. I'm not saying this because you somehow don't deserve it because your not fully committed, quite the opposite, you have earned your appointment. I'm speaking from a purely practical point of view.

You want to be successful, 7 figures successful, that's great, not easy but a fine goal non the less. My suggestion, which I would give to my own son if he were in your place, is to go to College, study your area of interest. Spend the summers at different internships that are in your area of study to get experience on how it all works, soak up all the knowledge you can. Either go straight for your masters after graduation or start on your way in the business world.

If you go to WP you will have that 5 year obligation, those that graduate from college will have a 5 year jump on you. One other thing to consider, does WP offer the degree that you think you will need to reach the level of success you are looking for. While WP has a great network, so do other schools. The one thing you won't be able to do at WP is internships during the summer, at least not the kind you will need to reach your goals.

Lastly, you will not be the only person leaving the military after your 5 years, there is a lot of competition for jobs among those Captains just getting out. Unless you have something to step right into that will give you the success you want, you will have to start with whatever you can find. Using those 5 years right out of college may give you a big head start. While the pay is not bad as an officer, it's nowhere near what your looking for.

Again this is just a practical suggestion.

Once again I appreciate your input.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Should I go down the path of how "working for yourself by 28" are you planning on pulling in a seven-figure salary?

 

[Positivity]

Should I go down the path of how "working for yourself by 28" are you planning on pulling in a seven-figure salary?

I'm confused by your wording. What are you asking?

 

[LineInTheSand]

I'm confused by your wording. What are you asking?

At 28 years old…. how will you be making at least $1 million? As you see it?

 

[Jcleppe]

I'm not sure how the word Ego relates to any of the responses you were given.

Please understand I do not mean this in any derogatory term toward you at all.

I just want to make sure you understand the level of "Ego" that will rain down on you while your at WP. You will be surrounded by the Gung-Ho types, you will need to bury those grand plans you have for yourself deep inside while you navigate the Seven Circles of Hell, well ok, maybe not seven, but not a picnic either.

At a civilian college you can express those goals from day one and surround yourself with the like minded.

 

[Positivity]

At 28 years old…. how will you be making at least $1 million? As you see it?

I have a few ideas, but most of them revolve around marketing. I'm not interested in going into detail, but if you're legitimately curious I can expand.

 

[Positivity]

I'm not sure how the word Ego relates to any of the responses you were given.

Please understand I do not mean this in any derogatory term toward you at all.

I just want to make sure you understand the level of "Ego" that will rain down on you while your at WP. You will be surrounded by the Gung-Ho types, you will need to bury those grand plans you have for yourself deep inside while you navigate the Seven Circles of Hell, well ok, maybe not seven, but not a picnic either.

At a civilian college you can express those goals from day one and surround yourself with the like minded.

What is the Seven Circles reference? Fair enough.

 

[Jcleppe]

What is the Seven Circles reference? Fair enough.

Sorry, 9 circles of Hell, I forgot two.

 

[nothingventurednothinggai]

I cannot express any opinion on whether you should go or not. But I have met many of the class of 2017 this past year, and ALL I met, including my kid, had lots of buyers remorse the 4 weeks and up until the morning of R-Day.....and then it got worse! -; By two weeks in, it wasnt worth quitting over (well, it was for 10 or 20 kids), but it definitely sucked, but by A Day, 'it wasn't so bad'. Then it just got better and better. He loved the first year, and like most of them, is really excited to be an Officer, already looking past being a Cadet. He is right now palling around with those who are already his closest friends in Manhatten, with two shiney silver dollars given to him by Firsty sports team mates who honored him by asking him to give them their Commissioned first salute at pin on yesterday. It was also kind of cool to have the President stop by yesterday -;, recognizing the importance of this elite group of 4200 very young people. Buyers remorse in the weeks leading up to R day is common, if not universal. After the first year, I see a ton of pride. As was said in "Absolutely American", West Point Cadets are 'Grand, Epic, Complainers, and probably the happiest college students in America.' That has been my observation as well.

Now to the 7 figure annual aspirations. Hmmm. I got there (no where close in my 20's though). My dad (A grad) always told me money is made by being extraordinarily good at what you do, and that takes love, and the ability to get other people to embrace and accelerate your vision. In fact, and he was very successful, he said 'The World is becoming so highly technical and specialized, that the real value is from becoming a translator among specialists. That is what I learned to be at West Point".

The economy has seriously changed. There are no 20 something fast track programs for BA's at Xerox, or GE or Merrill Lynch, like there were a generation ago. You can do CS or Chemistry or Double E, and make $100k in your early 20's, (and $150k at 50) but other than that, its more likely than not you will be living at home in your 20's doing unpaid internships, trying to have a resume that interests someone. At that same time, the USMA grad is going to have serious responsibility for over 100 people. The civilian world has very little use for 20 somethings today unless you can code or do chemistry. The military assigns much greater responsibility to its Officers, and the commercial world highly values that. Private careers dont really start now until you are in your 30's, at least the ones you aspire to. Being a Captain entering the commercial world at 27 is far more interesting to an employer than having been at 4 internships and finally getting to run a 2 or 3 man marketing team at 26.

Just my two cents.