4 Year ROTC Scholarship

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by 36cmadawg, May 16, 2013.

  1. 36cmadawg

    36cmadawg Member

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    I'm planning on majoring in Environmental Engineering at K-State. From what I've heard about engineering majors on college visits, graduating in 4 years puts on a lot of stress because of the difficulty level of the classes. 5 year plans were actually pretty popular, because it allowed students to focus more on their grades with a smaller course load, and it sounds pretty appealing to me. If I was a 4 year scholarship recipient, would I be able to complete my fifth year before commissioning? Or would I be commissioned anyways after my senior year without actually completing my degree?
     
  2. cadet0063

    cadet0063 New Member

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    You need a degree to commission. The cadets at my school who take 5 years for engineering commission when they're done with their degree. I think you can get an extension on your scholarship, but I'm not sure about that. I'd talk to your cadre.
     
  3. 36cmadawg

    36cmadawg Member

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    So basically I'm not going to incur any penalty for going 5 years? If I have to pay the extra year, that's fine, but I don't want get bit and have become enlisted or pay all the money back
     
  4. cadet0063

    cadet0063 New Member

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    I don't think there will be a penalty. If you're on scholarship, you don't have to pay it back. In my battalion, it's encouraged for the engineering students to take extra time. Just make sure that your cadre is informed of everything.
     
  5. 36cmadawg

    36cmadawg Member

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    Ok thanks a lot! That answered my question!
     
  6. cadet0063

    cadet0063 New Member

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    No problem, good luck with it.
     
  7. Storm

    Storm Member

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    Just to reaffirm from information from a previous thread. A similar case of a XYZ Engineering major who was asking about the five year plan and I believe it said that with proper coordination with your cadre and CC ahead of time, cadets on scholarship can easily have an extension to include the fifth year. Can do a quick search to dig it up.

    Best of luck!
     
  8. cajuncarrier

    cajuncarrier Member

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    When my DS went to spring orientation in April, he was told that his mechanical engineering degree would be 5 years. We didn't ask. With the extra classes for MLS, it is already assumed. They do not want to put extra stress on the cadets with the increased class loads. We were also told that the scholarship would be extended as long as he is not retaking classes and he carried a full normal load each semester. That was a relief to hear...

    BTW, he did receive the 4yr AROTC scholarship.
     
  9. Thompson

    Thompson Member

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    I think part of depends on the school's program, whether or not it is a 4 or 5 year program (w/o factoring in ROTC). This was something I was looking into as well when I started on my CCF 104-R form (Planned Academic Program Worksheet).

    I'm attending PSU this fall for mechanical engineering. At PSU, for the College of Engineering most engineering disciplines are 4-year programs (there may be some specialized disciplines that are 5 years, but I don't know of them). And for mechanical engineering at least, it's a 131 credit minimum requirement to graduate. The 104-R includes a section that has this magical formula, that you input the number of credits - and spits out the number of semesters authorized. At PSU, ROTC accounts for 23 additional credits; 20 credits for MS classes and 3 for the required PME (Professional Military Education) course. However, for my degree, I can count 6 credits of those credits towards my major, and an additional 3 credits as gen ed - since my PME course doubles as ROTC requirement + gen ed requirement. So, when all is said and done, my magic number is 9 semesters. Bottom line is, from what I've found, when you graduate/commission is dependent upon the number of ROTC credits you take and the number of credits required to graduate.

    Good luck!

    The 5 years, is that the program w/o factoring in ROTC, or with ROTC? Lucky for your DS that he can do a full 5 years!
     
  10. cajuncarrier

    cajuncarrier Member

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    Mechanical engineering is a 4yr program at LSU. with ROTC it becomes a 5 yr program in order to take a reasonable amount class load. With the extra MLS classes his load would become about 21-24 hours per semester. That's really asking a lot from someone in that major.

    So thankful ROTC realizes this and gives them the opportunity to be successful in a reasonable amount of time without stressing them out. We did not know about this until orientation. The ROTC admissions person explained this to us. We were very surprised. But glad
     
  11. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

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    Wouldn't want to stress anyone out...The key is the academic plan, and the 104r and working with your ROO/HRA/cadre. If you didn't plan on a 5th year, and you spring that on your PMS in year three don't expect to be paid for that extra year. If your course of studies is 5 years to earn your degree and your academic plan says so then Cadet Command will fund 5 years. Don't expect to be paid to earn a minor or second degree, or just not want to have to "be stressed". You won't be the first engineer your Battalion produces, so they won't be reinventing the wheel. For the record Clarkson takes 4 years to make an engineer. 50% of my graduating class are STEMS and 9 of my 10 freshmen on scholarship are STEMs. Stress builds character!
    Not picking on you Cajun, just pointing out that we are producing military leaders, so if stress is a problem then we need to be careful.
     
  12. cajuncarrier

    cajuncarrier Member

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    Not complaining at all and have no problem with challenging students. I was very surprised they said 5 years. We didn't ask for it. They said this. Actually it never even crossed my mind or DS. But I must say that it will definitely be beneficial.
     
  13. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

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    One of my competitors...RIT...engineer school in New York...has the 5 year track. Obviously the Army would prefer to get their engineer in 4 years and save a year of tuition if possible, and have a lieutenant as soon as possible. If you can get on the 5 year plan that's great.
     
  14. cajuncarrier

    cajuncarrier Member

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    DS is not even sure if he will take that long. He will work it out as he goes along. But at least that option is out there.

    One more question. He was asking how will a 5 yr plan work with LDAC? Would be go between junior and senior yr? Or after his 4th yr before beginning 5th year?
     
  15. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    X2

    Plenty of ROTC & SA engineers graduate in 4 years despite the "stress". Just consider the stress of ROTC classes as a PT job which the cadets are being paid.
     
  16. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    He should have a very good idea of whether he will need an extra semester or 2 (it can be extended to 4.5 years as well) before his first day of class. There are a few things that can force an extension once the original plan is set.

    Here are things that will almost always force an extra semester:
    1) Degree requirements that when you add up the minimum number of credit hours to satisfy (plus ROTC) have a number > 130. While many schools "guarantee" that it doesn't take more than 120 credits to satisfy your degree, your Military Science courses may not satisfy any of the requirements within that 120 credits. And that 120 credits include no electives.

    Military Science courses add about the equivalent of about 1 semester of credit hours to your requirements (depending upon institutions). Most Cadre won't push their cadets past a 16 credit hour average over their 4 years.

    2) Schools that are over-enrolled to the point that you cannot get in the classes you need to graduate on time (happens a lot at publics where they've had lots of budget problems). All schools give priority to the students with the most credits under their belts when it comes time to sign up for classes. It is often difficult to get into upper-division classes as a first semester Junior because of the sheer number of 5th upper classmen who have been delayed before you. When you are in a major like engineering that has many sequenced classes, once you get off-sync because of over-enrollment, you are almost always going to end up requiring an extra semester. This is one of those you cannot know until you get there. And it is one that makes the cadre cringe.

    3) Majors with infrequently offered courses. This is a rare occurrence and in generally manageable, and once again something you won't run into until late in the game. Pick an obscure engineering specialty with about 3 or 4 degrees awarded per year. You have a critical requirement that is only offered once a year for Seniors only. Have another critical requirement only offered once a year at the same hour (yes it happens) and OOPS, you're going to have to return for year 5. Almost happened to me when I went through school. Needed only 10 credit hours to graduate and only 3 course requirements. 2 Specific classes in my major (Business) and one upper-division from any science/math discipline. I was a slouch science student (took my lab sciences in meteorology - where you got graded on predicting the weather, believe it or not). Had a couple meteorology courses in my plan. Both conflicted with the 2 business courses (1 time a year for seniors only) I had to take. Doh! Ended up talking my way into a upper-division Stat class (probability theory) that I was a couple pre-requisites short of. Was cruising through the first half of the class (filled with engineering majors who couldn't figure out the odds of winning Powerball if they won the prize for setting up the equation properly). Unfortunately, the other part of the class is where the ability to pound the calculus almost killed me. It was all about the volume under the plane. Could set up the problems with the best of them (understood the underlying Calculus theory), but couldn't solve the problem very well (didn't have the coursework in the techniques). Got my Gentleman's C- and graduated (the D+ would not have counted).

    My advice to all incoming freshmen:
    1) Get the course catalog for your entering year (it changes every year).
    2) Get the list of requirements (general ed, major, specialty) for your degree from that course catalog.
    3) Look up and list by requirement ALL courses that satisfy EACH requirement and list them by requirement.
    4) As you list those courses, spell out the pre-requisites (or co-requisites - taken at the same time) for the course (class standing, other courses, accepted into major, instructor approval, etc.).
    5) Identify the courses at the beginning of the longest pre-requisite chain that you are eligible to take immediately and put them in your first semester plan if at all possible. For you engineering type, there will be math, physics, and chem chains that will be lengthy.
    6) Plot these chains out in your 104r (you can find one online and download - google is your friend) starting in the earliest semester possible. Start from the longest chain and proceed to your shortest chain.
    7) Add in your MS classes across your first 8 semesters.
    8) Fill in other specifically required classes (that don't have pre-requisites - you already did these above). Look at course schedules to make sure they are offered the term you intend to take them.
    9) Fill in classes you have choices for (pick 3 from a group of 5). Take special note of classes that have an unusual number of credit hours. Try to schedule those to even out your load across the semesters if possible.
    10) If you notice that you need to consistently take more than 16 credit hours to make all the required classes fit into 8 semesters, you will want to talk to your cadre about needing more than 4 years to graduate. (back on topic)
    11) Take your filled in 104r (make sure you have the current one from your cadre) when you see your adviser during freshman orientation. Typical orientation advising sessions only cover freshman year. If you give them the filled-out 104r, you can get the required signature on the spot and impress him/her with your planning skills. Your adviser is your friend. Often, they can intervene and get you into a class you might not otherwise get into.
     
  17. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    +1 (Most egg cell ant advice) 11 habits of highly successful college students...

    As an example my oldest daughter (who is graduating next Friday with her DVM:thumb:) had every thing laid out for all four years, including band, numerous clubs and activities, what under-grad courses were required by every vet school, etc etc ...I was talking with the profs of pre-med programming boasting about my daughters (kind-of-like I am doing here) system and how they should give it to under-classmen, they informed me that if the student was going to make it to vet/med school they already know this and are doing it... Kind of deflated a proud dad, but drove home this point ---If you are going to be successful YOU are going to have to take charge of your own future.
     
  18. cajuncarrier

    cajuncarrier Member

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    goalidad,

    excellent advice!!! My oldest son graduated in chemical engineering in Dec 2012. He had some of the issues you mentioned. He couldn't get in one lab because he was on a waiting list for a course that isn't offered often. That pushed him back an entire semester because he had to have that lab before he could take the next before he could take the next. None of it had anything to do with something he did wrong. It went according to who had the most hours. So he was bumped... That was so frustrating..

    Anyway, I asked DS about his course counseling with the ROTC admissions person (sorry do not know the correct term) and he said that he did not complete a 104r. He scheduled courses according to his academic advisor following the university flow chart. So I found one and printed it and we are working on that tonight. It's pretty much the same, just a different format. Thanks for the advice.

    Should ROTC have completed this with my DS? If so when?
     
  19. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

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    Cajun- a completed and signed 104r is a requirement in order to contract. Your son will need to fill one out this fall, but getting a start on it now is a good idea.
     
  20. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    Jcc123 is correct. Your son will be given a 104r to be completed by him and obtain a signature from his adviser before turning it in. Many units issue the form the first week of class. Some do it during the summer.

    If your son has his 4-year plan that his adviser approved, that information can simply be copied over to the 104r and resubmitted to the adviser for a signature when he arrives on campus.

    I'm glad to hear he has contacted his "ROTC admissions person" (not quite sure who that is - maybe the Recruiting Operations Officer ROO). Often, a unit will have additional course requirements (those undocumented ones - lol). In my daughter's case, the unit "requires" an upper-division history course that deals in military affairs. (could also satisfy a university requirement) That requirement has actually been the toughest for her to schedule, since they haven't offered one that qualified in almost 2 years. Next semester, she will be taking that course.

    One of the strengths of ROTC programs is that it requires students to take charge of their lives. No stumbling through life semester to semester. My daughter has discussed her 104r with me every semester from the ride home from freshman orientation to present (entering Sr year). She has driven the discussion mostly using me as a sounding board for interpreting the university's degree audit (which as a person with a fair degree of degree audit software, I can say theirs is marginal in readability). Lately, she has had to deal with showing the registrar the inaccuracy in her own degree audit (sounds like registrar validated her complaint) under their 'old' system (currently installing a new system).

    As your older son discovered, there is many things that may not be square during 4 years under a plan to graduate. Hopefully your younger son will keep ahead of things and keep his cadre notified as problems arise.

    Good luck to him!
     

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