A Call to Action

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How about some positive thought processes?

If the mids had the power this would have been solved easily with dismissals of the offenders. As it is they are consuming vast amounts of personal energy just to hold their tempers as they are essentially being thrown under the bus by the administration.

Unfortunately a lot of "our" energy has been consumed merely getting from the concept of shooting the messenger, to trying to figure out the validity of the message, to wondering if there is anything “we” can do about it.

One of the strange devices used in the world of problem-solving is known as brain-storming. Take any idea, no matter how far-fetched and put it out there. Let everyone else take shots at it without taking it personally. If the idea survives all that it must be a really good one.

The more normal thing that happens in the brain-storming process is the triggering of secondary thoughts in someone else’s mind as a result of the original idea -- and the criticisms (yes criticisms, not always a bad thing) that follow.

I can only imagine that the “Hot Shower” went through such a process, and I love a hot shower – as would the M/N in 3rd and 4th Co by the way (at least while they are on break next week they should be able to get a bit of nice treatment for a while).

I know there have been at least a few very positive ideas and recommendations buried in all these posts, and if someone took the time to comb through all of them to collate positive post/portions, that might help all of us. This forum may not have any authority, but it is clear many who are chiming in have access to people who may at least be in a position to make formal proposals.

Like I was alluding to – good ideas can create their own traction.
 
donar said:
Given the complexity of the case, I sought legal assistance from the Academy Attorney who reviewed it and agreed with the Commandant. So, after two levels of mature review and counsel, I decided to overrule the Honor Board decision.”

”Everyone did a lot of hard work but we need to move on. So, during the last two days, the Commandant, the Attorney and I met with all key players including the jurors and Honor Board members, and explained to them our rationale for overruling their decision. We also wanted to use this as a learning experience for all with the objective of making our processes better, including clarifying the Honor Manual and paying attention to due process in these proceedings.”
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So now my question is:

Forgetting the "honor" offenses (lying and cheating) what about the "conduct" offense (stealing/breaking and entering/burglary)?

Letting them off on a technicality in the honor board review in no way changes the underlying crime.

Did the they do it?

If yes, expel them.
 
Just because the end result wasn't to their liking doesn't mean the system failed. The accused individuals were found guilty and now everyone knows who and what they are.

I would say to the M/N, you win some and you lose some. This was only a wasted effort if you don't learn anything from it. Use it as a case study for future Honor Boards. Now get back to your schoolwork, make sure YOU graduate and stop worrying about whether the other people do or not. Life isn't fair, you will not approve of your bosses choices 100% of the time, expend your energy on the things you CAN change.
 
Luigi59 said:
So now my question is:

Forgetting the "honor" offenses (lying and cheating) what about the "conduct" offense (stealing/breaking and entering/burglary)?

Letting them off on a technicality in the honor board review in no way changes the underlying crime.

Did the they do it?

If yes, expel them.
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Totally agree. Being a member of a "protected class" ie. A minority or female, allows the "admissions" bar to be lowered, if required to achieve the desired/legally supportable mix. The bar most always needs to be lowered to accomplish this, unfortunately.

But once admitted, everyone should play by the same rules.

When you are admitted because of minority preference, as seems to be the case here with these individuals, one does not get preferential treatment when violating workplace rules or laws of the state? The facts as stated support a charge of burglary 3rd degree NY PL 142.20.

It is my understanding that the white males caught (arrested) for drug possession/distribution were summarily dismissed (dis-enrolled). Why then should the females (black, white or green) not be summarily dismissed for burglary?

Can anyone explain to me the difference in immediate outcomes following these alleged crimes ?
 
BRAINSTORMING can be a way to find positive solutions

"One of the strange devices used in the world of problem-solving is known as brain-storming. Take any idea, no matter how far-fetched and put it out there. Let everyone else take shots at it without taking it personally. If the idea survives all that it must be a really good one."

"The more normal thing that happens in the brain-storming process is the triggering of secondary thoughts in someone else’s mind as a result of the original idea -- and the criticisms (yes criticisms, not always a bad thing) that follow." taken from DisgruntledAlumni's thread

The emphasis should be on the fact that in BRAINSTORMING no one is allowed to criticize another idea as it stops people from sharing. Often, as was stated, a different idea can branch out into some great creative solutions. We should give it a try.

Many times this forum attacks a person, or goes over the problem, often with people contributing who do not know the full situation. Then the thread stops and nothing has been accomplished. This time, let's accomplish something and make a difference. Many people no longer join this forum as it does not accomplish anything. I contend that it can be a vehicle for change.

Everyone BRAINSTORM and put in their ideas of what would work and what should be done, be very creative. Be positive as we all have heard the negative. Are there any good solutions? What is best for the code of honor, the morale, and the integrity of the academy?

We all want KP to be the best Merchant Marine Academy in the world (not the poor orphan nephew of one of the other academies). KP can be the recognized leader in the merchant marine. Let's take a deep breath, turn our determined brains into making a difference by finding some solutions. This is a bad situation, let's turn it around and make Kings Point a stronger institution, by creatively commnicating about what should be done. It will take changes, it will not be easy, and will take everyone working together. So, let's begin and brainstorm. There are so many concentrated bright brains at KP among the students and administration and faculty. Mids, after you finish finals, please join in with suggestions. No one has to give up in despair, you can make a difference. Let's redeem the pride in the school.

I was told by one of the MARAD lawyers that the MARAD lawyers read this forum. I know the acting Superintendent and many others are reading what is written, otherwise they would not feel they need to put in their opinions on gcaptain. So, this can be a platform and a vehicle of true communication among everyone. Use it positively, communicate your concerns. Your idea may be what turns the tide to a solution. Everyone, students, administration, faculty, must work as a team, listen and understand the concerns of the other, and conquer this impass.

Let's not let this thread just dissolve into "well we beat this horse to death", LET'S MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND MAKE KP BETTER. What do you think? Got creative ideas? No one should criticize an idea just add more ideas. True BRAINSTORMING !!!!! Let's work together to make KP a great place again. I believe it can happen if everyone works together as a family, as a team, as true Kings Pointers.
 
To answer the distraction, and get back on track

OK – Huge leaps in the discussion have occurred, and I would like to at least address some of the questions asked and get back to the real issues at hand.

The single greatest difference in the “cases” (since we do not even know if there ever was a case on the other issue) is “lawyering up” as we have already labeled it.

I know almost nothing about the drug “bust,” but have heard the M/N referenced were believed to have been “dealing.” If such were true, the pursuit of that issue would have wound up delving in to who they were dealing “to” as well. If there were potential legal issues with “how” the bust went, and the M/N agreed to resign, there may have been a decision to not pursue things any further.

In this case their parents may have decided not to hire lawyers to fight for them. Maybe they were just satisfied their children were not going to wind up in prison.

I know this is all speculation, but I think it is no more speculative than some other statements in recent posts
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NOW


THIS thread has focused on the overturned Honor Board. The infraction clearly started from a “cheating” perspective as presented by an instructor.

The apples-and-oranges aspect is that the first issue was always 100% within the hands of the administration, while the second issue was handled by the Honor Board first. In both cases the Regiment was upset about the lack of appropriate consequences, but the second case was far more egregious to the Regiment because of the overturn without reasons anyone believes.

Going after the three “Honor-Boarded” M/N with either a Regimental or legal punishment now would very likely have a bad result. Such a potential case has essentially been nullified by the same administration that over-turned the Honor Board verdict. The logic this administration employed has already stated the evidence was suspect, so how could they then turn around and use it against these M/N in a different forum? They would now definitely wind up “hoist on their own petard”

All that being said, can we get back to the main purpose of this thread? The administration has severely compromised the ability of the Honor Board to do it’s job going forward with its decision, and even more so with the legalistic logic it employed to explain itself. They really would have done less damage if they had offered no explanations at all.

One of the best things someone in this forum has said so far is that the Honor Board should just keep doing its job based on the truth. We all certainly hope there can be some constructive changes going forward, so let us all try to explore them together?
 
So here is a crazy idea i just dreamed up - start shooting at it

OK – How does this sound? CONTRACTS!!!

Just for argument’s sake, the education is worth maybe $240K, so tuition room and board is $60K per year.

But, if you are willing to sign this “contract” and adhere to it, you will receive a $60K per year scholarship, which includes your license and commission in the armed forces at the end.

One of the protocols in this contract indicates you are willing to adhere to the Honor Code and abide by its system of rules concerning how these are decided.

So – if someone is honor boarded it does not necessarily mean expulsion, just that they lose their scholarship and their right to sit for the license exam and their commission in the armed forces. If their parents want to spend $60K/yr just to get the diploma, then that is all they get.

For transition you could pro-rate the existing classes, and if an existing M/N feels very strongly they do not want to sign this contract they still get offered a “provisional continuance” and they can be handed their scholarship without prejudice, but will not be able to sit for the license.

I am thinking there would need to be some other provisions to round it out, but this would separate out the issues fairly well wouldn’t it? How many people will pay $60K per year out of their own pocket to go to KP vs. many other options they would have with that money?
 
NYBEAR said:
Totally agree. Being a member of a "protected class" ie. A minority or female, allows the "admissions" bar to be lowered, if required to achieve the desired/legally supportable mix. The bar most always needs to be lowered to accomplish this, unfortunately.

But once admitted, everyone should play by the same rules.
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I have stayed out of this discussion because I do not feel it is possible for outsiders, who have not seen the actual evidence to know whether or not the administration made the right call. Incidentally, not all of the mids agreed with the Honor Board decision. Those mids are in the minority, but there are some who found the evidence flimsy.

Anyway, the point of this post is the tendency, as evidenced by the above comment, to assume the reason the ruling was overturned was because the accused were female. Statements like this one imply that the females who were admitted were not as capable as their male counterparts. It also implies that they somehow have an easier time getting through KP. That is not the case. Our DD's Honor Board experience was identical to that of the male midshipmen who were accused of the same offense. They were treated the same way, received the same ruling and the same punishment, completed the same remediation.

I worry that attitudes like those expressed above will mean that our DD's accomplishments will be viewed with suspicion, that people will think she had an easier time of it and didn't really earn it on her own merit. I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of how hard do the females really have it. But I think we need to be careful about throwing accusations of favoritism based on gender.

Back on the topic at hand, I agree that the best thing the mids can do right now is to continue doing the best they can with the system they have. There have always been occasional overturned rulings. It will inevitably happen again. That said, the administration does need to provide clearer procedural guidelines.

As for the drug bust, the KP rumor mill version that got to me was that the bust was made by an outside agency. That would mean that you can't compare the outcome in that case to the outcome of an internal Honor Board case.
 
Personally, I'm not in favor of contracts as a solution - I think that would result even more in people "lawyering up" and I think that is a big part of why honor boards are getting overturned. If we are going to ask incoming mids to sign anything I'd think rather than a contract it would be a waiver of their right to sue and to accept some sort of binding arbitration like power from the Honor Board and then the decision need not even go to the Administration.

I think the whole problem is too many lawyers and not enough acceptance of individual responsibility to abide by the honor code.
 
New leader

Given the completely ridiculous response Dr. Shashi Kumar gave in an email posted in another forum, if indeed it was him, regarding his decision on this case it shouldn’t be a surprise to everyone that the DOT is sending a senior official to begin work at the academy within a month to essentially relegate him to ceremonial duties and academic functions. It is clear he has neither the leadership nor management skills to preside over the school and the secretary has taken action. If my sources are correct this person has an impressive resume, easily viewed online, and is senior to him so there will be no doubt who is really in charge, except maybe to him. This midshipman’s letter showed the kind of courage needed in a leader, to go outside a restrictive dysfunctional organization to expose corruption and ineptitude. Dr. Kumar’s response, probably vetted by lawyers and public affairs personnel, shows a scared coward frightened to enforce rules or met out discipline, other than to a messenger of course. The chairman of the alumni chapter presidents’ blind defense of everything Kings Point and his thinly veiled threat of a lawsuit against anyone who dares to challenge the usefulness of the school is pathetic.
 
Fundamental Reform

As a USNA graduate and the proud parent of a USMMA 2016 candidate my observation of this forums really disturbs me. The top three most recent postings for KP are still on the toipics of a CO leak, a "call to action" which has amounted to a junior high school playground argument, and an (though entertaining and lighthearted) attempt to get a daughter a date to the ring dance. While not discounting some very inspirational posters, how about we take a look at some of the other academy forums and promote the quality of our applicants and midshipmen, the elite nature of this and all service academy's, how we as alumni and boosters can do our part, and, above all, leadership and service which is what the place is all about.
 
Multiple items to think about

Navy1987 – Welcome. I love my alma mater, and want it to be seen as one of the elite institutions.

Unfortunately, right now there are a lot of problems, and I am still hoping that people in this forum can contribute and help discover, develop and promote solutions. Along the way I think we will have to suffer some amount of angst, so please bear with it.

We can not hope to begin to solve problems unless we at least first acknowledge their existence.

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GraduateZZ – If your sources are correct that is one piece of very unexpected news to say the least – and quite the “inside scoop.” You stated “DOT” is sending this person and did not mention “MARAD.” Can you verify this distinction?

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Jasperdog – I do not really love contracts all that much myself, but I used the term somewhat generically. I believe a waiver of any kind is in essence, also a contract.

When citizens join the armed forces voluntarily they sign contracts wherein they actually relinquish certain constitutional rights and agree to abide by the UCMJ. This is what the Cadets/Midshipmen at the other academies all do before showing up. I was trying to indicate that any contract used should be at that level of certainty.
 
Navy1987 said:
As a USNA graduate and the proud parent of a USMMA 2016 candidate my observation of this forums really disturbs me. The top three most recent postings for KP are still on the toipics of a CO leak, a "call to action" which has amounted to a junior high school playground argument, and an (though entertaining and lighthearted) attempt to get a daughter a date to the ring dance. While not discounting some very inspirational posters, how about we take a look at some of the other academy forums and promote the quality of our applicants and midshipmen, the elite nature of this and all service academy's, how we as alumni and boosters can do our part, and, above all, leadership and service which is what the place is all about.
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Are you suggesting sweeping USMMA's issues under the rug or whitewashing the information on KP?

Look, I didn't go to KP. I looked at it. Got in, but I went to CGA. I know there is a rivalry between the two schools, but from the other side of the fence (the CGA side that is) I take no pleasure in seeing all of the issues KP is having.

That said, there is no reason to hide it just so future midshipmen have no idea what they're getting into. If there's an issue with any academy, rapes at USNA, USAFA, smoking spice at CGA (and a few other places), organizational issues at USMMA... not talking about them won't make 'em go away.
 
Navy1987 said:
As a USNA graduate and the proud parent of a USMMA 2016 candidate my observation of this forums really disturbs me. The top three most recent postings for KP are still on the toipics of a CO leak, a "call to action" which has amounted to a junior high school playground argument, and an (though entertaining and lighthearted) attempt to get a daughter a date to the ring dance. While not discounting some very inspirational posters, how about we take a look at some of the other academy forums and promote the quality of our applicants and midshipmen, the elite nature of this and all service academy's, how we as alumni and boosters can do our part, and, above all, leadership and service which is what the place is all about.
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I am not an alumnus and do not have a child attending Kings Point. My only real vested interest in the academy is that it remain open long enough for me to finish my masters degree.
That being said, I believe it is in our national interest for Kings Point to remain in operation as one of the federal service academies. My background is 20-years Navy engineering followed by civilian life in corporate America. The main problem as I see it is that Kings Point finds itself lacking an identity. USNA, USMA and USAFA are all secure in their national identity. USCGA doesn't share in national prominence as the others but if you were to question the average person on the street about it I'm sure the response would be something like, "I know we have a Coast Guard, they have an academy? I haven't heard about it but it makes sense they have one." As the same person about the USMMA and the response would be, "The what? What's a merchant marine?" This is just part of the bigger problem that faces our maritime industry.
If I had the job to "fix" Kings Point here are some of the steps I'd take.
1. Appoint Mark Kelly as superintendent. He's an alum, recently "out of work", has a "national face" (not so easily “reassigned” by a political administrator), his promotion from recently retired captain to rear admiral is easily justifiable. He's mentally sharp and very disciplined. Neither MARAD nor the students will be able to get BS by him and he won't suffer fools easily. The student body would embrace his wife and she would care for them and the school most likely with the same devotion she gave her constituents.
2. Reinforced academic focus. Let the country know that there is no better institution in the land when it comes to the study of marine engineering or maritime logistics.
3. Marketing. The academy's website is horribly maintained, anything you pull up on youtube would be great if this was 1950. Let people know that if they're looking for the preeminent school leading to a career in the maritime industry Kings Point is at the top of they pyramid. There are Kings Point grads who are senior naval officers, masters of merchant vessels and captains of industry. Get them involved in the PR.

Ps, Navy1987 - glad you found my thread entertaining and lighthearted. That's what I was going for. Wonder if we ever crossed paths?
 
I can see how an astronaut has to manage many unrelated pieces of information and carry out complex duties at the same time............Perfect!
Great idea :thumb:

PR - right on that too!

We all have floated Mark Kelly's name for months but I have not seen it laid out in such a compelling way. You have a flair for marketing as well. Although I imagine you daughter doesn't appreciate it.
 
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bubbie

my husband and I have been saying this for years--it is time to go back to being a military school--and really become the "Jewel In The Crown"
 
Which branch of the military? Then the argument becomes "we already have an academy for............". Where does that leave KP?
 
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