A confession to make ...

[Luigi59]

C.S. Lewis, one of the great scholars (and a one-time atheist) has written much on this topic. Philip Yancey and others too. But just a little of Lewis ...
What would you have Him do?
• God has the power to intervene in situations where Person A is about to hit Person B over the
head with a wooden bat. He could miraculously turn the bat to rubber or candy floss.
• If He stopped all bad things from happening, He would be robbing us from making any real moral
choices, because our bad choices would be nullified.
• All real moral decisions have consequences, and the human race has frequently chosen to do evil.

Your friends died because of the consequences of man's decisions, not God's.

So your position is that man has free will?

Hmmm.

If you really wanted to get into a logical philosophical discussion about free will, you can only come to the logical conclusion that the acceptance of free will denies the existence of god.

The problem here is that God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. Its knowledge cannot be wrong. There is not a single event that it has not foreseen. Given that it created the Universe the way it did, do we have free will? Consider that when God made the Universe it could see every possible result of what it was doing. Which means: it could not create something without knowing what the results would be, and without knowing how it would be affected (and effect) the things around it.

Let's say that Fred has a choice that will save his life, to accept God or not to accept God and the final choice is to be made tomorrow. God knows already what choice he will make - God cannot be wrong therefore Fred cannot choose otherwise to what God has predicted. God made Fred and knew in advance how Fred's brain would fire when faced with this choice, and God knew exactly what it was doing when it allowed every life experience that would influence Fred's 'decision'. When God created the chain of events that made Fred it also knew that it was making Fred's choice for him, and knew how the various circumstances and character would make him choose either right or wrong. Fred would go forth and make that very decision that God knew he would make, and by virtue that God knowingly set up all the factors that affected his decision, it was not up to Fred but to God to decide how Fred would fare.

This argument does not imply that God does not exist. It leaves us with three results, two of which have to be wrong.

1. God created everything with full knowledge and we have no free will to change it
2. God does not have full knowledge (and therefore cannot be God)
3. God did not make the Universe or there is no God

Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.

 

[Whistle Pig]

I'm confident you've put a nasty spin on Calvin, Luther, and St. Auggie that merits no further edification. Clearly too much theological ground to cover. lol You might want to seek a refund from your online sem ed?

 

[Christcorp]

.........
Your friends died because of the consequences of man's decisions, not God's.
............

I know I said I was bowing out of this conversation, but; if God wasn't involved in the death of these soldiers and it was consequences of "Man's Decisions", then are you saying that god does/doesn't have some say so in the death of the 2 year old who is dying from Leukemia. That obviously isn't a consequence of "Man's Decisions".

(I have my own belief and understanding of WHY; but I was curious as to why you believe you can absolve God of intervening in some sorrow but not other)

 

[scoutpilot]

I'm confident you've put a nasty spin on Calvin, Luther, and St. Auggie that merits no further edification. Clearly too much theological ground to cover. lol You might want to seek a refund from your online sem ed?

See, Luigi, you don't agree with his version of the spirit in the sky. Thus, you must be dumb. See how simple an argument can be?

 

[Pima]

Whistle,

I too agree with CC, how is it you have a clear line regarding these deaths.

I am a Catholic, the OMG NO, type of Catholic...I believe in gay marriage, and I don't think a woman that has an abortion will go to Hell. I believe that God had their hand in these things too.

To say man's decision is easy to say, but didn't God give man the intelligence to create things that kill, like weapons? If he did than shouldn't you acknowledge God had a hand in this too?

I believe in both free will and fate. I think we all have choices, but if our fate is to die on a certain date, than you will die on that day. I guess that is how I survived for 20 yrs as an ADAF wife when Bullet risked his life everytime he stepped into a jet. It is how I survive now with our DS going to UPT.

I am not saying that if I eat a burger today God decided it for me, but I think in big picture things regarding my life, I have place my life in his hands, and that like Jesus this is the path I must walk. I would never say someone died because of the consequences of man's decision. IMPO, they would have died that day anyway, be it in combat or slipping and falling as they got out of the shower.

 

[Luigi59]

I'm confident you've put a nasty spin on Calvin, Luther, and St. Auggie that merits no further edification. Clearly too much theological ground to cover. lol You might want to seek a refund from your online sem ed?

Have you read the Christian bible? Actually the better question is - Do you understand it?

Then you must understand this - Free Will and God cannot co-exist.

Period. My example above clearly illustrates this, logically and specifically.

The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. The bible (YES! The Bible!!) denies that we have free will.

Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Roman 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians, etc - read them and let me know why you would think humans have free will, in direct contradiction of these biblical verses.

And if we go even further into a philosophical theological examination of free will, you can also only conclude that even God, being god, cannot have free will!

If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined.

“There is a light switch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?”​

If you knew a decision you are going to make in the future... what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices... based on the fact that you know it's going to happen, it is predestined and no amount of strong will can change it. The further in the future the predicted choice is, the less free will you have to change it! Well imagine if for infinity you'd always known exactly what choices you were going to make and that you could never be wrong. You would never have had any free will in any choice, ever!

In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path.

PS - re St Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin -I can provide direct attributed quotations and writings of each of these historical figures that proves beyond a doubt that each of them denied the existence of free will.

 

[LineInTheSand]

You follow that post with "Luigi, did you google that or did you just happen to have those books/chapters or the Bible ready to go at your finger tips?

 

[scoutpilot]

You follow that post with "Luigi, did you google that or did you just happen to have those books/chapters or the Bible ready to go at your finger tips?

To which he would respond "What does it matter? Does it change the answer?"

 

[NavyHoops]

WP, you are making alot of assumptions by some very short responses by me. I am not going to go into the fine details of how I have come to where I am today, but please do not assume I am sad, angry, mad, etc. I have chosen my beliefs based upon my experiences to include education both in the classroom and in church, my life experiences, and those who I choose to surround myself by. USNA actually spends a great deal of time between classes and character development exploring philosophy, religion, ethics. I think they do a great job of this. You and I will never agree on how this wonderful planet and we (people) came to be because we believe in two different things. It is like having an argument with one Sailor, Soldier, Airman and Marine and asking them who the best service is. A Coastie would then chime in and tell us it was them anyways! That is for you LITS. And trust me, I clearly understand that organized religion and a belief in God are not one and the same.

One of my best friends from the Academy is a now a Youth Pastor. We have theological, philosophical, and science debates continually. He grew closer to God through his experiences, I grew away. My best friend and former room mate from the Academy is a devout Catholic and has a PhD in Theoretical Physics. Normally those two things do not mesh all that well together, but she makes it work.

I appreciate the discussion and different points of views on this forums. That is one of the reasons I am on here. I gave my beliefs and appreciate hearing others.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Hoops, you're right. Let's get this research back to basics and eliminate at least some of the assumptions. Unlike some of us, you seem to have some hard experience and you've considered "both sides."

So, that noted ... a few fundamentals.

1. Do you see yourself created? Or how did you come about.

2. If you believe in a creator, what do you see as "its" continued involvement in your life.

3. If you believe in a creator, do you see any continued involvement or interest in your life?

4. If you believe in a creator, why were you created.

5. If you don't believe in a creator, do you think you have any rights? Where did they come from?

I trust you'll be intellectually honest in helping to understand your position. Thank you, and I mean that!

 

[LineInTheSand]

To which he would respond "What does it matter? Does it change the answer?"

For those who argue through Wikipedia searches.... yes, it would.

I can google it (or bing it for Microsoft lovers) through down a 1000 references and assert that it's the way I say it is because of all of this "evidence". Luigi's assertions not only fly in the face of my denomination, but many others. So maybe Luigi is right and the founders of those denominations have never seen this "Christian Bible" or maybe, just maybe it's not as solid and accepted as Luigi would have us all believe.

Then some might read it, some might not. But it would be similar to how the political discourse generally runs.

My belief is based on faith. If Scout or NavyHoops or anyone else for that matter needs more than faith to believe, it gets pretty hard. There's only so much people can say or do to get someone to consider God working in their lives.... that final step is up to them... and it's up to God.

 

[LineInTheSand]

It is like having an argument with one Sailor, Soldier, Airman and Marine and asking them who the best service is. A Coastie would then chime in and tell us it was them anyways! That is for you LITS.

And that Coastie would be right.

 

[Pima]

Whistle,

I am with Navy in their position.

And trust me, I clearly understand that organized religion and a belief in God are not one and the same.

I am Catholic. I don't believe you need to pigeon hole people into Catholic, Protestant, Episcopalian, Jesuit, etc.

As a Catholic that believes in the word, that supports abortion and gay marriage, I look at JC and Mary Magdalene. He embraced her. He did not shun her. God gave us the intelligence to create a medical way to prevent pregnancy and a way to abort pregnancies. Not saying I agree with abortion, just saying I don't think a woman would be damned to Hell. I also believe gays don't want to walk this path, and that the true test is not homosexuals and their choice, but heterosexuals and their actions regarding homosexuals. Can anyone that has an issue with their sexuality truly say they are living in the word? Yes, quote Bible and verse, but when you do remember there are 10 more regarding how to treat people.

I am personally sick and tired of people who defend their actions using religion for their personal actions. Using the bible as their defense.

Just me, but to really live the word, don't judge or demand answers from others. Respect their position, and embrace them so you grow as a person. You learn to accept them without condemnation or prejudice.

Isn't that what a good Christian would do? They would accept, the wouldn't condemn or convert.

 

[Bullet]

Sooooo. When do we start the thread on race relations, and the one on the upcoming election? Just want to know so I can get my popcorn ready.

Never was a man who expected God to take the time to directly answer my prayers. Just didn't think the wishes of some little 'ol no-body like me was really worth his time. He probably had bigger fish to fry (like getting my Giants into the playoffs and to the SupperBowl victory).

About the only time I prayed, it was in homage to Alan Shepard (I believe). Stepping out to my jet the first time I was mission commander for the entire strike package in ONW (80+ fighters, all under my command that day):

"Please Lord, don't let me $@#& this up!"

 

[AJM7680]

Sooooo. When do we start the thread on race relations, and the one on the upcoming election? Just want to know so I can get my popcorn ready.

Back in the day, politics, religion, ad sex were always considered taboo discussion subjects for officers. For present day officer corps, race relations probably should be added to the list. However, for all my active duty "friends" on facebook, partisan politics apparently has been removed from the list.

 

[osdad]

Before this thread gets closed....

Someone please tell us of a single instance where a prayer was answered where the requested outcome couldn't be easily explained by other (secular) factors.

Bullet probably didn't "$@#& this up" that day; was it because of the prayer he said or was it his intellegence, attention to detail and his years of training?

I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Someone please tell us of a single instance where a prayer was answered where the requested outcome couldn't be easily explained by other (secular) factors.

Why do you need fireworks for it to be an answer to prayer? God makes everything.... including those secular (your label, not mine) factors.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I look at JC and Mary Magdalene. He embraced her. He did not shun her. God gave us the intelligence to create a medical way to prevent pregnancy and a way to abort pregnancies.

Never read Jesus say "now, go about the babies"....

Yes, we can do many many things as humans. We have the ability to abuse children. We have the ability to rape old ladies. We have the ability to do many many things, and many of those things are bad.

The litmus test should not be "God gave us the ability".... as you also have the ability to chose.

Jesus associated with sinners because we're all sinners. No one is perfect. I'm not supposed to judge people, but I do, every day. Just because Jesus ate with sinners doesn't mean sinners were free to sin. I seem to remember many of them "figuring it out"....

 

[LineInTheSand]

Back in the day, politics, religion, ad sex were always considered taboo discussion subjects for officers. For present day officer corps, race relations probably should be added to the list. However, for all my active duty "friends" on facebook, partisan politics apparently has been removed from the list.

It wasn't ever taboo, just wasn't public. These discussions occur now and have since the beginning of organized militaries. Maybe not in the wardroom (certainly not in the one I was a member of) but it was talked about in our staterooms, behind closed doors.

 

[Luigi59]

Let's get this research back to basics and eliminate at least some of the assumptions.

Whoa, not so fast.

You made a statement/response in support of man having free will.

I have shown, beyond any doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient god cannot exist if either god or human beings have free will. (After all, to be God you MUST be all knowing and all powerful, right? Otherwise, you are not God.)

You have not offered any support to back up your position, other than an attempt to change the subject, which hardly qualifies.

Please give me an example of how man can have free will, AND believe in an all-knowing all-power god.

Understand, I am not questioning your belief, your faith, nor am I questioning my own beliefs or my own faith. I believe each of us should have a personal relationship and a belief a higher being - completely separate from any organized religion, their dogma, or any fantasies about an old man with a beard, lounging on a cloud, writing names down in a book of "good and bad" or deciding whether or not a give this person cancer or give that person the winning lottery number.

What I AM questioning is your statement that man has free will, which I have shown, cannot be true if God is God.

And since God IS God, your choices, decisions, fate, etc - have all been predetermined and the outcome of every second of your life has been known to God since the creation of the Universe.