A confession to make ...

[Pima]

Luigi,

I get your position, but I don't think God decides whether I eat peas or corn for dinner.

Are you implying that Whistle believes God decided his veggies?

I believe in God, but I also believe I have free will to a point. I think if I choose Captain Crunch over Cheerios it is not the same as if I married someone else.

 

[basilrathbone]

Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.

I disagree that St. Augustine taught that there is no free will. In fact he taught quite clearly and emphatically that free will exists. He was a professor of rhetoric so clearly it would be pretty easy to find quotes that would seem to prove the opposite of his point. That’s often how rhetoric progresses particularly in the style of discourse that Augustine often used. Rhetoric doesn’t lend itself well to the sound bites that we are used to now, 16 centuries later. I am by no means an Augustine expert but I have read Confessions and several of his letters and I’m working my way through City of God (it’s very weighty and I admit my progress nearly imperceptible). Augustine espouses both free will and foreknowledge which is confusing to many. Augustine also emphasizes one or the other depending on his subject and readership. My guess would be that the anti-free will quotes that one could find of St Augustine would be in his discourses against the Pelagian heresy which took free will to an extreme.

I’m not arguing against your freedom to believe that acceptance of free will denies the existence of God. I just don’t think you should use Augustine to make your point. I’d stick with Calvin on that one.




As an aside, you refer to Augustine as a founder of Western Christianity rather than a father of Western Christianity. Is that saying that Augustine is not a continuation of Christianity that predates him? Who are the other three? I’m just curious.

 

[Bullet]

Bullet probably didn't "$@#& this up" that day; was it because of the prayer he said or was it his intellegence, attention to detail and his years of training?

Perhaps a little of all of the above (minus the "intelligence"; I'd replace that with "undeniable charisma" ).

I'm more inclined to say the biggest factor was "fear". Fear that someone wouldn't get home on my watch (worst case), or fear of ridicule and humiliation if we all got back safely but the mission was a failure because of my plan and leadership (the "not so bad" case). Fear is a big motivator.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Pima! You're giving me the chuckles. Maybe ol' Luigi can illumine if God is laughing for me, through me, or at me?

Agree Basil ... there is some confusion here, not unexpectedly between Calvinism, predestination, Armeniansm and some other theological concepts that merit a far more thorough and intellectually honest and genuine consideration than we can lend here. Volumes have been written on this stuff. Calvin and St. Augustine had unique definition of "freewill" for example. Both allowed for it. Luther too.

It's encouraging to see such a vibrant discussion about this, suggesting that indeed there may well be more merit than even the naysayers seem willing to allow.

Cool!

 

[sook]

Well, this discussion is interesting. IMHO, one common theme is GOD. I do not think that any one religion has the "only" or "one" God, rather what every one of us on this wonderful planet, believing or have faith in the same....(not sure what to name). Many wars would not begin if all felt the same way, or not
History has shown that so much blood has been lost in the name of.......(name your "God").

I embrace, admire, and have great hope that anyone and any faith anywhere, can feel and live with the faith in any god of their choice. I do not embrace, admire or have any hope for those that suggest their particular faith is the "only one" and all who do not follow them are somehow condemned.

Like so many issues facing the world today, when it gets down to the small stuff, we humans world wide are all alike in so many ways! We want peace, a safe home, good health for our family, food on the table, shelter, an opportunity to make a living, and a better life for our children. We do not have to share the same God or government to want these things. Nor do we need to have the same faith or government to achieve these things.

 

[Whistle Pig]

sook ... YOU got this. This has NOTHING to do with "religion" or denominations or even theology. It's about faith and prayer ...

And prayer requires but 2 things ... attitude and action.

The forum provides clear understanding why some have no faith in prayer. And they wonder why it fails them preferring to debate and discuss denominations, Catholicism, biblical and theogical doctine, "I feel/I think", etc.

I wonder if you've missed the mark in suggesting that "all faiths" are ok and we need not judge. While that's a thread for Luigi, maybe, all major "religions" claim exclusivity. Mormonism, humanism, Catholicism, Christianity, Islam, etc. They all proclaim to be "true." In order for something to be true, it must be true for you, for me, for all. Or else it isn't true. Merely an opinion to which we are all entitled. But all opinions do not merit equal respect or consideration. And all cannot be true, can they.

 

[EDelahanty]

I'm glad we're back to the original subject of this thread: prayer. Prayer appears to have worked for Jeoffrey, as you can see below in this extract from Christopher Smart's poem. It didn't work so well for the author though, or rather it may have worked too well. Excessive praying in public led to Smart's confinement in a British mental institution. There he wrote this poem, which has some exquisite lines and may be the best poem ever written about a cat and its relation with the Almighty.

For I will consider my Cat Jeoffry.
For he is the servant of the Living God, duly and daily serving him.
For at the first glance of the glory of God in the East he worships in his way.
For is this done by wreathing his body seven times round with elegant quickness.
For then he leaps up to catch the musk, which is the blessing of God upon his prayer.
For he rolls upon prank to work it in.
For having done duty and received blessing he begins to consider himself...

 

[sook]

And all cannot be true, can they.

Yes! I do not believe that any faith has it over another.

 

[Luigi59]

Luigi,

I get your position, but I don't think God decides whether I eat peas or corn for dinner.

If God is God, then he most certainly decided that you WILL eat one or the other - you have no choice, it was already known to God which one you would choose -

- or are you saying that there is some future event in your life that God does not know the outcome?

That would fly in the face and contradict every belief about God's power, vision, and knowledge.

Are you implying that Whistle believes God decided his veggies?

No, the opposite - Whistle Pig stated that man has free will.

The real question has to be - did God decide which veggies WP would choose?

Absolutely, without question! We cannot believe that God only directs us in "big things" and ignores the "little things" can we? An omnipotent omniscient being (the very definition of God) must know everything that will ever happen. If he didn't know something (the outcome of your or WP's vegetable choice) he wouldn't be God, because that would be something he didn't know.

I believe in God, but I also believe I have free will to a point. I think if I choose Captain Crunch over Cheerios it is not the same as if I married someone else.

Then you must believe that God does not know everything. Because if you had a choice, that would mean that God didn't know what you would do. And that cannot happen, as God knows EVERYTHING in advance.

And let's get even deeper into theological philosophy - since your choice of vegetables or cereal or husband had already been pre-ordained by God when God created the Universe, you cannot change the choice, nor can God! Even God, as defined by every major religion throughout history, cannot have free will! And prayer cannot change God's choice, as that would imply that God made the wrong decision or choice when he originally ordained your choice.

It's one of those mobius loops (a paradox) that cannot be escaped.

Logically, either:

1. God and humans have no free will, prayer cannot change the outcome.
2. God is not all-knowing/all-powerful, or
3. There is no God.

I'll go with #1.

PS - I'll bow out, I think I've given everyone enough to think about.

 

[Luigi59]

My guess would be that the anti-free will quotes that one could find of St Augustine would be in his discourses against the Pelagian heresy which took free will to an extreme.

I’m not arguing against your freedom to believe that acceptance of free will denies the existence of God. I just don’t think you should use Augustine to make your point. I’d stick with Calvin on that one.

Fair enough. I've read his (St A) writings on the denial of free will, but haven't delved deep enough into any discourse of the contrarian view.

 

[LineInTheSand]

And the wild card is we define and limit these ideas to the human brain. "Either it iS this or it is that...." without remembering we're dealing with something far biggest than anything we can hope to ultimately dissect.

The house fly that lands on the window my car is only touching the surface. Yes, it knows it's walking on something. Maybe it can even tell there difference between glass and wood, but that fly cannot even begin to understand that the car was made by a human and that there is an engine, and that the engine is powered by fuel that is combusted, and that the energy produced with, through a number of mechanisms, propel the car in a direction.



We are the fly. We try to understand God with our little fly brains. We define and limit Him with our little fly brains.

At some point our fly will need to realize combustion engines are beyond him.... and that fly will just have to have faith.

 

[Whistle Pig]

And the wild card is we define and limit these ideas to the human brain. "Either it iS this or it is that...." without remembering we're dealing with something far biggest than anything we can hope to ultimately dissect.

The house fly that lands on the window my car is only touching the surface. Yes, it knows it's walking on something. Maybe it can even tell there difference between glass and wood, but that fly cannot even begin to understand that the car was made by a human and that there is an engine, and that the engine is powered by fuel that is combusted, and that the energy produced with, through a number of mechanisms, propel the car in a direction.



We are the fly. We try to understand God with our little fly brains. We define and limit Him with our little fly brains.

At some point our fly will need to realize combustion engines are beyond him.... and that fly will just have to have faith.

Hey, it all sounds great. And lots of wisdom here.

But for Christians, while much remains unknown, much does not. That was one of JC's raison d'etre! That God may become known to us! We're not left to our own supposing, what iffing, I think I think, etc. God's allowed us the freedom (freewill for Lou ) to look at it ... or turn away. And that is what determines the end game, of course. Is it all logical, discoverable, provable? No.

And as you've pointed out ... THAT is where faith comes in. It would be unnecessary if we had all the answers.

But we're all "religious." We all worship that which captures our imagination. Religion is not restricted to those who associate themselves with the labels of specific organized systems.

And they are all exclusive in the sense of being "one way." Even the Bahai who proclaim "many ways to know." Well, in saying that, they've enunciated their "one way."

Remember successful prayer has 2 legs. One without the other and it falls down, doesn't run. Attitude and action.

 

[Christcorp]

Luigi: I believe that God "KNOWING" what we'll do, choose, etc... and God "Deciding" what we'll do are 2 different things. In other words, man can have free choice and God can be omni-everything. Knowing what will happen and deciding are 2 different things.

I remember a time when my wife was baking and our son was about 2 years old. We've tried teaching him that the stove was hot. However, there he was waddling in the kitchen while she was baking. I "KNEW" beyond a shadow of doubt that he was going to touch that hot stove. I didn't decide it for him. I also didn't intervene and stop him from doing it. (I'd done that enough times; it was time for him to learn first "hand"). Pun "Intended". And yes, he did touch the hot stove, flinch, cry, etc.. Point is, me being "All Knowing" about that situation and knowing for a fact that he was going to touch it, didn't mean that I decided for him. He chose to touch it. I just happen to know ahead of times.

Now I'm not God. With God, I believe we have free will but he knows what we're going to do. He even knows if we're going to change our mind 2,433 times prior to the final choice. But that doesn't mean he still doesn't allow us to choose. Again; freedom of choice and knowing what that choice will be are two different things. Knowing doesn't mean deciding for you.

 

[Pima]

Luigi,

Did you ever think that maybe God created free will? If God creates everything, than God created free will too. That was part of his master plan.

I don't believe it has to be either or, it can be both.

Do I believe that God put me together with Bullet? Absolutely. Do I believe that he decided we would have 3 children? Yes.

However, do I believe he planned that I would have the color theme to be silver, or the outfits that I brought our babies home in? NO.

Those things did not impact or change my path in life.

Now I can go with you that God may have chosen the veggies that day for that 1 meal because maybe they choke on it, and die. It wasn't that he chose everyday for their entire life every piece of food they placed in their mouth. He chose the day that they would leave this earth. The veggies were just the method to bring him back home.

I believe in fate. Fate that God has pre-determined. He determined the day I was born, he determined the man I would marry, the children I would have, the family experiences I live through, and the type of person I will be. However, no I don't think God decides which color of underwear I put on this morning.

I think God has more important things to deal with than what color my undies are!

Maybe it is just me, maybe I find if you believe to that Nth degree, you might as well give up on life and just be a drone. Afterall, everything is planned out for me anyway. If something bad happens, it is not my fault, it's God's fault. Where is my motivation to get up in the morning? I am sure you will say to do God's work.

I believe I do God's work everyday in my actions, not by choosing peas over carrots.

I think God has our destiny plotted out the day we are born from a big picture, but we are the ones that paint the fine brush strokes in that big picture.

I don't think it has to be all or nothing to believe God is impacting our life.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Au contraire ... God is VERY CLEAR about luke warmers ... those not "all in."

Not all those who claim and call "Lord Lord" will be admitted into His Kingdom. Instead, they will be (the Hebrew word for ) ... vomited from His mouth.

I don't want to be vomiting or vomited.

 

[Pima]

I guess because I believe in free will, God will be vomiting.

But, than again, wait a minute, I believe God created free will, so if he created free will, than I would not be seen as luke warm. That is my total belief in his master plan, hence 100% belief in his existence.

Why is it that people can accept God created everything, but not free will? I don't follow that thought process.

If you believe he created everything, than you have to be believe he created free will. You can't say man created free will if you believe in God. It runs against the whole premise that God is our creator.

 

[Whistle Pig]

No, it's only if you've exercised that free will to turn away from Him.

Think of this as "romance." When you and your best gal were courting, if you'd been able to "require" or puppet her to your benefit, it would not have meant anything beyond immediate pleasure.

No, God's is similar relationship. And it only has worth and merit to the degree that we FREELY turn to Him, freely go to the door He is knocking on.

But He does not demand any of us come to Him.

 

[Pima]

Okay, from that position I understand your position. It appeared that you were saying if you believe in free will, than you are luke warm regarding God.

I am not luke warm. There has been many times in my life that I have told Bullet when the chips were down, you just have to believe, God has a path for us and it will unfold in front of us. More times than I would ever wanted to say.

I believe that God is there in my life. I believe in prayer. I believe in fate and faith. I just don't believe God decides if I buy Tide or Wisk laundry detergent.

 

[Packer]

We are the fly. We try to understand God with our little fly brains. We define and limit Him with our little fly brains.

At some point our fly will need to realize combustion engines are beyond him.... and that fly will just have to have faith.

I am happy to be a fly. All these questions with no answers give me a headache.

 

[Christcorp]

My prayers:

Ricky Bobby: [running around on the track in his underwear] Help me Jesus! Help me Jewish God! Help me Allah! AAAAAHHH! Help me Tom Cruise! Tom Cruise, use your witchcraft on me to get the fire off me!

Ricky Bobby: Dear Lord baby Jesus, lyin' there in your ghost manger, just lookin' at your Baby Einstein developmental videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors. I would like to thank you for bringin' me and my mama together, and also that my kids no longer sound like gang-bangers.

Ricky Bobby: Dear Lord Baby Jesus, I want to thank you for this wonderful meal, my two beautiful son's, Walker and Texas Ranger, and my Red-Hot Smokin' Wife, Carley