A desperation question!

ChristCorp -
If you have never had the opportunity - pick up a book called "Absolutely American" by Lipsky. I am sure you have heard of it as it has been discussed and recommended on this forum and others.

The book is 10 years old now, but no matter - in it is a character - a real live living human being - named "Huck" Finn.
"Huck" was recruited to West Point for football and football only. He readily admitted that he went because it was the only D-1 school that admitted him.
He was not a very good cadet initially. He did however, catch on and graduated and commissioned a 2nd Lt. The NY Giants wanted him but that was not to be - we were a country at war. We went to war and so did Huck. Huck proudly served his country as a platoon leader in Afghanistan. The back of the latest edition of the book shows a picture of Huck - doing his DUTY, with HONOR to his COUNTRY.
 
JAM; while I know your intentions are good, you too seem to have read into my post things that were not there. I have no need to read the book for the reasons you suggest. But I appreciate the thought. Mike...
 
I said that there were some; in this case athletics; that applied and were accepted mainly for the athletics. This is obvious when the athletics don't pan out for them, and they choose to leave the academy and enroll in a traditional college/university
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I dunno - why are you continually "picking on" athletes?
There are some who apply whose Daddy is a grad and a career officer - for some of these kids the military life doesn't pan out for them and they leave, since they only went because of Daddy.
There are some who all they want to do is be an officer but find they can't handle the stress of a service academy - they too leave and enroll in a civilian school.

I am not quite sure what your point was in your previous posts. Who cares why/how a candidate gets appointed. You don't work in admissions and neither do I so to suggest that admissions professional are appointing the "wrong" kids is a little shady.

This forum is intended for Service Academy candidate to come on here and get information and ask questions. When you make posts that suggest that recruited athletes should not be "recruited" (don't you like a winning football team?) - you run the risk of having newly appointed candidate form pre-conceived notions about a sub-class of appointees.
I wouldn't want anyone showing up for I-Day or R-day, meeting their new roommate who happens to have been a recruit and thinking this roommate doesn't belong there.
This is not my judgement nor your judgement to make.

I would like to add the converse of your statement is true as well -
there are a number of recruited athletes who show up and play, but decide in the 3rd or 4th year that their sport just takes up too much time. They are focusing on becoming an officer and choose to get as much military training as possible. Hence, teams lose a lot of upperclass athletes because unlike a civilian school - they don't need to keep playing to keep their scholarship.
 
You're able to quote portions of what I wrote, and still not understand what I said. Please, if you don't understand something I wrote, feel free to PM me. But don't imply that I said or meant something that I didn't. You are correct that these forums are for the cadets and applicants. It is important that they get as much knowledge as possible. At NO TIME, did I EVER suggest that athletes should not be recruited or given appointments. As I've said, my SON is an IC athlete. I appreciate your desire to help candidates and applicants gain knowledge. But you do tend to read into posts, meanings that are not there.

EVERYTHING that you just said about my posts in this thread is 100% absolutely misrepresented and incorrect. I've NEVER implied that an athlete should not be recruited and appointed to the academy. I said that this was just one example where a person might get an appointment where it wasn't the best choice. You yourself mentioned that there are some that because their father was a grad and officer that they MUST do it also. And that they too find it isn't for them and they dis-enroll. Am I to "ASSUME" that you mean that ALL CADETS/APPLICANTS who's parent was a grad and officer SHOULDN'T be accepted? I don't think so. So WHY do you continue to misrepresent what I said. Please, if you even "Think" you understand what I mean, you probably don't. Just PM me for clarification. Obviously, this is "my fault". I am the communicator, and you as the receiver do not understand. Hence, it is my fault. I am willing to explain if you don't understand. But let's not take a very good subject and take it off topic.
 
Are we supposed to celebrate Huck for doing what he was supposed to do...something 1,999 of his classmates did that no one paid attention to?
 
Might be wrong, but doesn't CC's son play a sport for the AFA? I would think he has a very good heartbeat on the sports arena, through their experience as a parent and now that their DS is at the AFA.

Over on CC there was a child recruited by Dartmouth and the AFA. He took the Dartmouth route. His coaches were pushing him to take the AFA and the parent even stated they were disappointed he didn't. The coach wasn't looking at the academic reality or the 5 yr payback, they were looking at which team was a better football team.

you make posts that suggest that recruited athletes should not be "recruited" (don't you like a winning football team?
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Maybe to him and many other cadets/candidates they don't give a fig if the AFA wins or loses...are they going to have more pride...DOUBTFUL. Our DD will be a 2010 grad, she is looking at colleges right now, she doesn't play sports, but she wants to go to a college that has bball and football, just to go to games for the camaraderie and the college experience. DS never even put that in his mind when he thought of applying ..he never went what is their football team like?

Not to be rude, but are we recruiting athletic students or exceptional students that are athletes? I would think and hope the latter, so winning or losing shouldn't be the foremost issue.

There are some who apply whose Daddy is a grad and a career officer - for some of these kids the military life doesn't pan out for them and they leave, since they only went because of Daddy.
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I think for almost every military parent, they take a much deeper, harder look and have very long conversations with their children regarding a military career. Military parents remove the rose color glasses and throw it out there like it is in all its glory, good and bad. ALO's play close attention to this and really want to make sure to this their ability that this doesn't occur. These kids get an additional question besides are you doing this because it is free or do your parents support this...they ALSO get the questionare you doing this because your parents are military. Our ALO, also interviewed us in detail...How do you feel about DS applying, do you want him to go, if he goes and doesn't get a pilot slot how will you feel (Bullet was a flyer). All of those answers go into their rec...I guess we came through in flying colors, since he told us he not only maxed out the pts for DS, but also ranked him #1 out of his 7.
You might not realize that the Daddy comment is offensive, but it is...you are inferring something that should be left alone...it will only take us back into the pro/cons of SA parents sending for a free education, which none of us want to go back into.


Do I believe a higher percentage of military children join the military more than those with no military background? Yes, but I also believe that it wasn't because of the parent, it was that they loved the life so much as a child and saw the enjoyment that parent had, they want it for themselves too.

I don't know one Acad grad parent that has children and pushed them to apply. Off the top of my head, I know 7 AFA grads personally and socialize with them very regularly(all of them attended Bullets retirement and traveled from across the nation to do so)...they told their kids to run the other way, only 1 has a child at an SA, and he is at USNA! They are also the same people who go back for the reunions every yr and wear their rings. They just knew that the fit wasn't a good fit. One was recruited to play sports at the AFA. General Goldfein has 2 sons, neither went to the AFA. I also know 2 parents (both military) that both of his children went there...they didn't go for DAD or MOM, they went for themselves. His name is Gen. Gould.

there are a number of recruited athletes who show up and play, but decide in the 3rd or 4th year that their sport just takes up too much time. They are focusing on becoming an officer and choose to get as much military training as possible. Hence, teams lose a lot of upperclass athletes because unlike a civilian school - they don't need to keep playing to keep their scholarship
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Have you ever watched college bball...how many of them leave after 3 or 4 yrs? The top players usually do, unless they are coming from a great school like Duke, where they had to make it over the academic bar to get admitted and understand that after the knee blows out they need a career to fall back on...or if they get injured an can't play they have again an amazing academic opportunity

I doubt one cadet looks at their new roomie and says crap I have a prima donna athlete. However, when that cadet starts to state I came because this was my best option to play, than I bet their opinion changes. And then when they start the I am going to try to get out of committment the cadre might start to have issues towwards him. I wonder how many coaches pose this option to the kid when he is being recruited...don't worry, look the military released XXXX to play ball. Again the Dartmouth kid didn't want an SA education, he wanted to play ball at the best school possible for him.
 
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Just to get this back on topic; to what I originally replied to; and to clarify some misconceptions.

FACTS: Deal with JUST THE FACTS!
1. Not every person that thinks they are a "Shoe In", or others think they are a "Shoe In", are guaranteed to get into the academy. (There are 4.0gpa students who don't get accepted to the academy, yet they got accepted to another prestigious college/university)
2. Some people who some might not think is a good fit for the academy, (Because of their grades, resume, or application), do get an appointment. There are a LOT OF REASONS they could have gotten the appointment. (I WON'T go into ANY of the possible reasons because I don't want some people to misinterpret my meaning).
3. There WILL be some individuals from BOTH groups that find out that the academy/military lifestyle is not for them, and they will drop out.
4. There WILL be some individuals from BOTH groups that find out that the academy/military lifestyle that is the greatest thing in the world and they will make a successful military career of it.
5. There will be some individuals from BOTH groups that find out that the academy/military lifestyle isn't what they hoped it would be, but they will hang in there and will serve their commitment honorably.

The premise of this thread was that people think because of their grades, SAT, recommendations, sports, etc.... that they "Should" get an appointment. The truth is; you might and you might not. There are no guarantees. The fact of the matter is, there IS going to be an applicant who DOESN'T get an appointment, yet they will have a higher gpa and sat/act scores than someone who DID get an appointment. Maybe it was because the lower graded applicant was the BEST that applied in their district and received the principle nomination. And there will be some who don't think they have a chance of getting in, yet they do. So, the suggestion is; don't write posts asking "What are my chances"? There's no accurate answer. The academy website lists the average CFA scores, average GPA, average SAT/ACT, average class rank, average extra curricular activities, etc.... This is all you need to know. If you really want the academy, then apply. The ONLY 2 truths about getting into the academy are:

1) If you DON'T APPLY, you CAN'T get an appointment.
2) If you DO APPLY, you MIGHT get an appointment.

There are NO OTHER TRUTHS about the appointment process. later... mike...
 
CC I concur.

There will be kids that get an appt, and you wonder why, there some you see with recs and say OMG WOW they are amazing, yet they didn;t go for whatever reason.

In the end it does come down to the WCS. It is all about points, just like any other college and just like the ROTC scholarship boards.

There are people who all they want is an SA education, they will eventually get it b/c they understand that the SA's are looking for exceptional people (and they will deserve it). Just because this yr might not be the yr and somebody you thought didn't have as good of resume, doesn't mean next yr won't be your yr. There will be people who want the free education and those who just want to play sports. Every cadet as mature as they are right now, they will continue this road in a singular fashion...they will re-think when the chips are down, am I cut out for this, do I really want to give 9 yrs on their own...Mom and Dad could be 1000s of miles away, your friends who go to civilian will not relate to your own fears...they also won;t get the great things like TDYS, spirit week or the relationship you will develop with your sponsors. They will mature and make their decision whether to attend or to stay regardless of their parents, friends or roommates...each cadet will become a mature adult and weigh the issues seriously, before they take that oath.

Those that want it bad enough will be at I-DAY someday. Those that want to graduate from the AFA will do everything they can possibly do to throw that cranium cover in the air 4 yrs after I-DAy. Those who don't have it in themselves will realize it and do just fine with whatever route they take ---military or civilian.

In the next few weeks, some of you will have the happiest day of your life up to now...some will not...just realize that if your only goal for today or next yr is to get into the AFA, then don't give up...there are many that are living proof that isn't over until you quit...GEN GOULD did not get accepted to the AFA outright, he went prep first. BTW if you don't who Gould is...you better google him now :biggrin:
 
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Athletics, Academics, and Academies

Just_A_Mom said:
This forum is intended for Service Academy candidate to come on here and get information and ask questions. When you make posts that suggest that recruited athletes should not be "recruited" (don't you like a winning football team?) - you run the risk of having newly appointed candidate form pre-conceived notions about a sub-class of appointees.
I wouldn't want anyone showing up for I-Day or R-day, meeting their new roommate who happens to have been a recruit and thinking this roommate doesn't belong there.
This is not my judgement nor your judgement to make.

I would like to add the converse of your statement is true as well -
there are a number of recruited athletes who show up and play, but decide in the 3rd or 4th year that their sport just takes up too much time. They are focusing on becoming an officer and choose to get as much military training as possible. Hence, teams lose a lot of upperclass athletes because unlike a civilian school - they don't need to keep playing to keep their scholarship.
Click to expand...


Yes, I love a winning football team! Sorry to say, but the Army/Navy game must have been an embarrassment for Army. By now we all know it's more about the whole person, don't we? That applies for the athletes, too.

Just_a_mom, you are soooo right:
I am proud to say that my son's ALO first attended the prep school, to boost his academics. He only played football for two years, but graduated. He served our country for 15 years, as an active duty officer. It was encouraging for us to hear his story. Although my son has an impressive class rank, GPA, EC, CFA, and just earned his Eagle Scout award; he has taken the ACT four times now because he wants to be competitive for the USAFA (his first choice). He's getting good at taking the ACT! But, if he doesn't make it into his top-ranked academy selections, he will eagerly accept a prep school.

Thanks to this fine ALO, (who admits that his athletic prowess helped earn him a spot at USAFA) we were provided an opportunity to explore the prep school option. This humble man, with a fantastic personality served his country admirably. More than that, he was an able communicator who lacked a condescending spirit. Doubtful he was ever in the "gifted and talented" programs growing up. Probably better for him that he wasn't; as the accolade might have made him "full of himself".

After we met with the ALO, we were able to encourage our son about the prep school option. It's not a consolation prize, but designed to make them more ready for the rigors of academy life. We explained that a vast number of college students take five years to complete their degrees.

If my son gets an appointment to the USAFA, I hope he gets to bunk with a football player! :wiggle::wiggle:
 
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