A little help and info?

[goaliedad]

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread but I think you may have glossed over one point. Assuming you are correct and you are certain to get a scholarship, there is no guarantee that the scholarship will be to the school you are applying ED. If you apply ED to JHU and then get awarded a scholarship to another school, you will have a complication. You can try to get your scholarship transferred, which as I understand is tricky when your school is an expensive private university. Other options are to try for a college based scholarship or go through the first year of ROTC without a scholarship and apply for a three year one while you are a freshman.

My point is only that your decision tree might be a little more complex than you think. Good luck.

Absolutely correct!

A few things that may stand in your way of getting a scholarship...
1) JHU is a high cost private school. Often there are few if any 4-year scholarships to these institutions in any given year. Sometimes the only scholarships are 3-yr AD (you pay for freshman year).
2) You may have great stats, but ALL the applicants for JHU have great stats. And you WILL have competition for those few scholarships. And you mentioned that you cannot visit the campus. The cadet who has great stats AND does his/her interview with the PMS there is more likely to get the "green light" from the unit when Cadet Command looks at the unit's preferences for scholarship recipients.
3) Applying ED does increase your chances for admission. However, you had better be aware that JHU does not guarantee that you will like your financial aid award and when you commit ED, you have agreed to withdraw all other applications upon receipt of admission and accept their offer regardless of what you think of their FA package. And if AROTC doesn't come through (see above), you could be setting yourself up for a lot of financial problems. Understand the rules for accepting and possibly withdrawing (you can before a certain date) ED applications along with the AROTC board dates before you get too far into the process. You CAN apply ED and possibly know your first board status before the ED withdrawal date, but each year is different.
4) There are plenty of opportunities to go to Grad school while serving. One in particular (GRADSO - do a search for it) allows you to take 2 years off (while collecting pay) to attend a school and degree of your choice that you have been accepted to fully paid for by Uncle Sam. This takes place typically after your 7th year and requires an additional 6 years of service. There are also opportunities to go to med school (search the forum for more details) as well.
5) Now the interesting detail that most HS students don't understand about advanced degrees. It isn't necessarily the guy going to the top rated Undergrad school who gets the best grad school opportunities. It is the guy who has great grades (JHU is UBER competitive), great test scores, and great professor recommendations who get into the top grad schools. The best way to get great professor recommendations (and undergrad research opportunities) is to be the top student. The best way to be the top student is to attend a school where you are in the top 10% of admitted students. Your 4.7xxx GPA and NMS credentials barely put you in the upper half of JHU admitted students, I'm sorry to tell you.
6) And talking about qualifying for GRADSO, that is given to 4-year (not 3-year) scholarship winners first, by OML which is heavily based upon your college GPA as well as a long list of other things (ECs, varsity sports, leadership positions both inside and outside ROTC, etc.) The Army doesn't care where you get your undergrad. A 4.0 from bi-directional state U is better than a 3.9 from Harvard.

What I am telling you is that you can get a great education at "lesser" schools than JHU, increase your odds of getting a AROTC scholarship (public schools get many more), make yourself more competitive academically for grad school, improve your OML and chances for grad school opportunities - all the things you talk about. Just do a bit more research here and at sites like College Confidential and you will learn that there are sooo many variables in getting ahead.

I actually appreciate your confidence (even if it comes off as cocky). Just remember that you are one of thousands of similarly (or even better) qualified candidates. Seek out a strategy not to fulfill your ego, but based upon what works for your goals.

 

[Pima]

I am going to take a different perspective than others.

The AD world.

You are correct it is 4 and the door, but what you don't put into the equation are some really big factors of the WHAT IF world.

1. As a ROTC commission the payback time does not start until you show up on post. If you show up 5 months later, it 4 yrs 5 months before you can bolt.

2. If they send you to a school, they may have a caveat that the clock doesn't start until you graduate from their career school. That means if the school is 6 months, and you waited for 5 months, you are at 5 yrs now, not 4.

3. Take Tuition Assistance for your Masters on AD, that is concurrent with the initial obligation, but it is basically 3 yrs owed each time you take it. Assume you can walk at 4 on the dot. That means the last time you can take TA is at your 1 yr marker, or basically 1 semester because it will take 6 months to get your footing with your career.

4. They send you to their career field school, and after that overseas for 3 yrs. Take a volunteer return you are in for several more yrs. New commitment owed. Take non-vol you can walk, but the problem is how do you interview for a job when you are in Germany?

5. They own you. Nobody knows what the world will look like in 2017 through 2021. I am betting there was at least one candidate like you back in 1999 who took the scholarship, never imagining 9/11 would happen. They couldn't disenroll, and so they stayed. They than spent yrs of multiple returns back to the sandbox.

~~~ You can't say I won't go to Iraq or Afghanistan. You salute sharply and go.

~~~ All branches have an option called Stop/Loss. Your commitment can be over, but they have the right to say this a critical field and not allow you to leave.


College is 30 weeks a yr., 18-21 semester hours a week for 4 yrs, and where you want to live. AD life is 24/7/365 days a yr. for 4 yrs, where they decide you will live, and when you will move.

The cliche service before self is true. You need to ask if you are willing to live it 24/7/365 even if it means in AK or TX.

I think you see it as a way to pay for college, but aren't grasping the true price you will/may pay.

There will always be unhappy cadets and officers. However in my opinion they are that way because their illusion never met reality, and reality is slapping them in the face reminding them of that fact.

OBTW you are lucky you are looking at AROTC and not AF/NROTC because you have more options. AF and Navy require only AD service, no Reserve or Guard option.

If it was me and I was ambivalent about serving, wanting to do it to attend my dream college. I'd find a new dream college or find a way to do it without a ROTC scholarship.

Finally, one thing everyone that is in the corporate world will tell you, the further out of college, the less importance your college undergrad degree matters, and the more your work experience does. JHU is a great college, but in this new global economy, you will probably go for a Masters. The school because you have 4 yrs work experience will take that into the factor. You are not going to be a 22 SR applying for Grad school. You will be a 26 yo that has been out of the academia world for 4 yrs. Even if you plan to go straight into corporate and not get a Grad., it is your career experience that will matter.

IMPO, you are looking at JHU as the golden ticket for your 2nd career, and not placing into your decision that there will be 4 yrs in between. Of course maybe you are doing this with the idea that you will go Reserves or Guard, but than please go back to my comment about HS srs in 99 with the same thought process only to find out they would be deployed for 12-18 months at a time.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

 

[Philovitist]

My SNSI really made me think the process would be a lot easier. He essentially said I was a shoo-in. I guess it's just because he doesn't usually handle students interested in higher-tier schools. I'm still pretty confident about my odds (I've spent the last four years working on my resume without rest), but the uncertainty is still too great.

Well. I don't quite know what to do now. My whole plan is in tatters.

It's what I get for listening to people who don't know what they're talking about..

 

[nofodad]

plan in tatters?

This is a terrific opportunity for you. Resilience, we all need it to be successful in life. Your SNSI was probably blinded by your stats, and so may the various ROTC boards, but remember who you will be competing with, not just your high school buds, it is a national competition. That goes for JHU as well. Great that you have a plan A, now take some time and formulate B-G. My DS is on plan D, and is thrilled. One more thing from the parent of a JROTC "stud"-doesn't count for much after graduation.

 

[BlindROTC]

What Kind of Science Advice are You Getting?

You are probably better off attending an affordable in-state school, joining their honors college, getting involved in undergraduate research, doing well academically, and then applying to a graduate school for science on your own. There is no loss of time that way. You can make money working in someone's lab as an undergraduate, and get full support in someone else's lab as a graduate student. This is all predicated on doing well and showing motivation, which doesn't seem to worry you.

What has you so fixated on JHU? I hope nobody has convinced you that you have to specialize in something like bioengineering or neuroscience as an undergraduate.

 

[jocomom]

3) Applying ED does increase your chances for admission. However, you had better be aware that JHU does not guarantee that you will like your financial aid award and when you commit ED, you have agreed to withdraw all other applications upon receipt of admission and accept their offer regardless of what you think of their FA package. And if AROTC doesn't come through (see above), you could be setting yourself up for a lot of financial problems. Understand the rules for accepting and possibly withdrawing (you can before a certain date) ED applications along with the AROTC board dates before you get too far into the process. You CAN apply ED and possibly know your first board status before the ED withdrawal date, but each year is different.

The ED contract explicitly states "Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment." JHU provides your estimated aid package with your ED admission. The only way that your actual award which arrives in the spring would be different than the estimate would be if the information that you submitted on your on your FAFSA and tax returns varies significantly from original estimates that you submitted on the College Scholarship Service PROFILE form. Declining an ED offer because of an inadequate aid package is the exception rather than the rule, but it does happen.

ROTC scholarship aside, JHU fills 40% of its incoming class fro ED so it is to an applicants advantage to apply ED if that is really where they want to attend.

 

[goaliedad]

The ED contract explicitly states "Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment." JHU provides your estimated aid package with your ED admission. The only way that your actual award which arrives in the spring would be different than the estimate would be if the information that you submitted on your on your FAFSA and tax returns varies significantly from original estimates that you submitted on the College Scholarship Service PROFILE form. Declining an ED offer because of an inadequate aid package is the exception rather than the rule, but it does happen.

ROTC scholarship aside, JHU fills 40% of its incoming class fro ED so it is to an applicants advantage to apply ED if that is really where they want to attend.

Mind you, it is my understanding the JHU requires both loans and significant work-study as part of their FA. From a practical standpoint, participating in ROTC is typically a 15-20 hour per week commitment (beyond classroom time) that isn't taken into account when JHU awards FA. A non-scholarship (very likely) cadet loaded up with tough classes, ROTC, and a part-time job is putting him/herself into a tight time bind and sets the table for failure.

I wonder what JHU would say to a non-scholarship ROTC cadet who says, "I don't like your FA offer because I cannot work that many hours while doing ROTC?" My guess is that they say "That is not our problem." At this point, the discussion is not going to go well.

I'm not saying that it cannot work, but the risk here is not worth the reward.

JMHO

 

[goaliedad]

And BTW, this advice as to the time commitment comes from the father whose daughter chose a non-flagship State U, plays varsity athletics, and held a 5-hour a week part time job last year (MS2). She has ZERO social life outside of the team and ROTC.

The secret here is that she is going to a school where her grades/test scores were quite a bit above the average admit. She also is in a major that is considered a softie.

Point here is that there are trade-offs to be made when considering the school/rotc/ec/work situation. By selecting a less-selective school, she was able to do more outside of class while achieving very good grades.

I just think that JHU is a challenging environment for almost all of their admits. Throw in ROTC and a job (probably in the 12-15 hour/week range) and the GPA (which is going to be critical in both military and grad school options) becomes a HUGH challenge.

 

[jbsail]

Great advice by especially Armydaughter, Prima and GoalieDad.

Philovitist, I would apply to JHU if I was you!

 

[Pima]

JHU appears to have the same program as Notre Dame. Notre Dame obviously is a powerhouse when it comes to ROTC (i.e. many students in ROTC as a % of all the students). The way their program works is you can come back and knock off the work-study or loans if you bring to the table more money. It is just their original packet.

You don't want to do work study they won't force you to do it, but you need to find where that money is going to come from to replace what they offered. They want that money in the bursar's pocketbook before school starts. It isn't due the last day of the semester, it is due the 1st day.

I agree if you are in ROTC and do work study, the higher up you go in the program the less amount of time you will have for other areas.

Aglahad, other posters and many parents, myself included will tell you by your third yr in your job in ROTC will probably take up about 15-20 hrs a week if not more. That is on top of PT and LLAB.

Do not enter any ROTC program thinking it is like JROTC, it is not. Do not assume it is just PT and a 1 credit class, it is not. ROTC cadets also do philanthropic and community service programs. The ROTC units at UMDCP earn money for the det by cleaning up the FB and BB stadium during the course of the season. It is not voluntary, it is mandated. That means about 1x a month from 7 a.m. to 1 p.m. on a Sunday they are picking up trash. The university pays them to do that. Ever wonder where those special ROTC college scholarships for just your college come from? Picking up trash!

At UMDCP they also run in the Susan G Kohman race every yr. and the Relay for Life. Again this is not optional, this is mandatory.

If you want to be in Honor Guard or some other military fraternity, those organizations meet weekly. More time away from working or studying.

Like I said, if the det. is an active det. you can expect a lot more time spent with the det than those 3-4 hrs you originally thought you would spend.

Talk to the dets. Ask them how much time you should allocate to ROTC. Ask them if there is mandated activities outside of LLAB and PT. This is important to know if you think you may need to take a job, even if it is just for spending money as a non-scholarship cadet. Even as a scholarship cadet 250 a month sounds like a lot, but trust me you can blow through it fast, especially if you have a girlfriend! Basically it is going out to eat and one movie a week, a few snacks, plus laundry.

I also agree def. apply, because there is nothing worse in this world than to be 40 and looking back at your regrets in life. You don't want that to happen. The worse thing that can happen is they say no, but at least you tried and that is something you won't regret.

 

[Roughrider]

I'm a high school senior interested in gunning for an ROTC scholarship.

I definitely qualify for one — I have a 4.712 GPA, am the only national merit semi-finalist (hopefully finalist, soon) of my school and have been active in ECs every year.

I'm more concerned about whether I want one or not.

My first choice school to apply to is Johns Hopkins, and I would try to join its Army ROTC. Ideally, I could apply to the school Early Decision with financial worries ameliorated by the full 4-year scholarship I'd end up getting.

But I keep getting signs that this isn't for me even though I desperately need it to be for me.


Those who I know at JHU say that everyone they know in ROTC hates it.

I fear that the time taken up during both the school year and the summer will restrict me from successfully double-majoring within 4 years and using my summers productively to prepare me for my ultimate goal — a career in science.

I'm also worried that my 4-year commitment afterward — which I am otherwise glad and proud to serve — will make me a less competitive applicant for the graduate schools I ultimately plan to apply to.


Can any of you provide some insight into what rotc life is like, especially at JHU?
And also into what goes on after graduation, and after service?
Is ROTC the right path for me?

I don't know about ROTC (which is why I am on this forum, to gain some information as my son starts this process) but as a scientist and a Hopkins alum, I'm going to say no.

Firstly, I am sorry to say this, but SAT scores of 1800 are weak for Hopkins. You should try to bring those up if you want to be a more competitive candidate.

Secondly, if your passion is science (and not military leadership), the advantage of an ROTC scholarship, compared to need-based aid or academic merit scholarships, is probably marginal. Hopkins has a hefty endowment and they use it to compete with other schools for the promising students. Before you make any decisions, contact the admissions department and the financial aid office and see if you can get a "ball park" figure for your family's expected contribution -- you may be surprised.

I doubt that 5 years spent fulfilling your duty obligations would count against you in admission to graduate school. But I am going to gently suggest that if cost is such a factor that you are considering trading a 5 year delay in your first-choice career in exchange for tuition, that you do NOT need to go to Hopkins, or to any other specific institution. In professional science, it's the LAST institution you attended, not the place where you got your bachelor's, that makes or breaks your CV. If it comes to that, believe me, you'll appreciate being able to start grad school with no debt a whole lot more than starting it with a bachelor's from Hopkins.

For graduate school admission, whose student you were and what you did is usually much more important than where you went. If you have a specific, narrow focus of interest in science, find a department and a professor in that field who would be willing to mentor you. There may be more opportunities for one-on-one collaboration or mentorships and undergraduate participation in research at a small, science-intense, undergraduate-only institution than at a major research institution like Hopkins, so keep an open mind.

If you are like most people your age and aren't specializing yet (that's the way it is expected to be, because you don't know what you don't know), you'll need to narrow your concentration with exposure to a marketplace of ideas, where there are a lot of departments doing a lot of different types of research. For that it's really hard to beat your local state mega-versity.

Wishing you every success,
RR

 

[Pima]

+1 to Roughrider.