A true Liberal Arts College

[MombaBomba]

For those of you that think a white board quote in the hallway are "just words", how well do you think these quotes would have been received. They are not hateful but rather thought provoking.

For instance:

"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions."

or

"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."

or

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

or

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish."


___________________________________________________
I think we would agree that these thought provoking white board posts would cause outrage. How would a evangelical Cadet feel knowing his superiors in-your-face point of view? After all, this superior had the guts to show his religous convictions outside his door.

Oh... These ^^ wouldn't bother me a bit (nor a religous quote). I'm agnostic. But I bet it would get more than a few people upset and logically so!!

I think there are always going to be people looking to be offended. Some feel threatened or intimidated by any opposing or differing point of view. Others believe everything is about them, so that comment must be about/aimed at them. And then there are those who can't resist stirring the pot and/or are bored ("Oh look a button! Let's press it and see what happens").

But then again, feeling offended really isn't the issue. I don't believe in wrong feelings. Feelings just are. How we act on those feelings and how we let them influence our decisions and interactions is what is right/wrong or good/bad. Feelings can change based upon additional information, knowledge or experiences. But once we take a particular action, then there are consequences to be faced, and those can't be changed. Mitigated maybe, but not changed.

 

[tankercaptain]

That was very interesting. I think the 24/7 news, internet, etc. along with the current politically correct hyper awareness has created an environment where controversy, fear of intimidation, and offense thrives. So the army is now considering a 180 degree turn to the "original" convention. I have to wonder why remove it and then put it back now? Does this sort of policy change happen often in the armed forces?

the ruling in 1984 which effectively disallowed Sikhs to join was due to alleged health and safety hazard of their turban and uncut hair.

 

[sprog]

Yeah because the supreme court is right on every issue. They have abused the constitution for decades and you put your faith in them. They misconstrued the inelastic clause to mean something wholly different than what are founding fathers had intended. They completely mitigated to much power to the federal government which it has since abused way to frequently. The Supreme Court is a joke and its just best to ignore them altogether.

Overall, you are completely wrong on this issue and there's no getting around that fact.

See, in the United States of America, the Supreme Court of the United States is the ultimate authority for the interpretation of the Constitution of the United States. This was confirmed by the Court in the Marbury case in 1803, and judicial review is an integral part of how checks and balances operate in our system of government. It's been a while for me, but I'm pretty sure this is covered in high school at some point.

Thinking that the Court got something wrong is fine. It's just that your opinion isn't the law, and theirs is.

Anyway...

If you're making a Constitutional argument, it's not "best to ignore them altogether" if you'd like your points to have, you know, merit (at least from a legal perspective).

 

[educ8]

__________________
Ignorantia neminem excusat. - PRICELESS!

 

[aglages]

ignorance of the law excuses no one

 

[aglages]

From a USAFA Parents Facebook page:
Here's an updated statement from General Johnson -- I hope it comes across ok. David K. Cannon, Director of Communication, US Air Force Academy ------------------------------------------------------ "The foundation of the United States Air Force starts at the Air Force’s Academy. This is true whether we are talking about our Core Values, our culture of commitment to the United States, or establishing a climate of respect where all are proud to serve their Nation. There is an ongoing civil liberties debate regarding the free exercise of religion as outlined in the First Amendment of our Constitution. This is a national level debate that happens to be playing out at the United States Air Force Academy. At question is whether the Air Force Academy is infringing upon cadets’ civil right to their free exercise of their religion.

While we swear an oath to Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States, Airmen are also bound by policy established by the Department of Defense and the Air Force, including the guidelines spelled out Air Force Instruction 1-1, Air Force Standards. The Air Force policy is clear but implementation requires thoughtful judgment and careful balance. As Air Force leaders concerned with good order and discipline, we must always ask ourselves whether the actions we take uphold that concept. That is, sometimes we must put the good of the entire unit before the good of any single individual. This is what is meant by one of our Core Values: Service Before Self.

Additionally, we in the military who are charged with the important burden of leadership or command must avoid the actual or apparent use of our position to promote personal, political, religious, or other beliefs to our subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for said beliefs. This circumstance, like many aspects of the entire four-year course of instruction at USAFA and other Service Academies, was used as a strong teaching and learning moment to underline how important it is for service leaders not to allow their private convictions, spiritual beliefs or political positions to become a hindrance to their leadership position of responsibility.

In the specific case at the Air Force Academy, the cadet did not feel that his right to free exercise of religion was infringed upon. His cadet and officer leadership discussed the situation and how it might be perceived by others under his supervision and he removed it.

What happened here sparked a debate between competing beliefs. One side’s perspective of this decision is that elevated one religious faith over all others and that posting scriptures from any religion on cadets’ whiteboards creates a hostile environment while the competing viewpoint states that there is censorship, suppression of religion and/or a violation of cadets’ constitutional rights. Both sides believe the policy outlined in Air Force Instruction 1-1 was violated.

Our focus at the Air Force’s Academy is not on this national debate but on emphasizing our core values and following Department of Defense and Air Force policy and directions as we continue to prepare our cadets to become exceptionally qualified lieutenants who will serve our Nation and defend our freedoms.

Along that line, Secretary James, General Welsh, and Chief Master Sergeant Cody recently issued a message to all Airmen which charged each of us with rededicating ourselves to the Air Force and our Core Values. Secretary James mentioned that it takes tremendous moral courage to live a life of virtue, character, dignity and respect. To be respectful of others means one puts others first. Or in other words, one focuses on the “we,” rather than the “I.” At USAFA, we take this charge very seriously because we realize we institute the foundation of the United States Air Force in our cadets as they prepare to become officers of character motivated to lead in the United States Air Force in service to our Nation."

 

[ps2018]

How would you be negatively affected by that person's statement of opinion?

The statement does not negatively affect me. I am a Catholic. I am also an American. It does however offends me that people thinks it is Ok to post a religious verse on public white board in a publicly financed institution. What is more scary are those who defend it as a right. It is a slippery slope first biblical verses then, muslem, then hindue, then name your belief. No one should not be subject to religious statements on public white boards on their way to class. The academy did the right thing removing it. No one should be punished or lose their jobs.

 

[sprog]

ignorance of the law excuses no one

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

Word.

 

[aglages]

While we swear an oath to Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States, Airmen are also bound by policy established by the Department of Defense and the Air Force, including the guidelines spelled out Air Force Instruction 1-1, Air Force Standards. The Air Force policy is clear but implementation requires thoughtful judgment and careful balance.

In the specific case at the Air Force Academy, the cadet did not feel that his right to free exercise of religion was infringed upon. His cadet and officer leadership discussed the situation and how it might be perceived by others under his supervision and he removed it.

OK. I realize I probably am not the sharpest stick on the tree, but the above statement doesn't seem to provide much guidance for the officers and cadets at USAFA. Any help in deciphering what this might mean?

In the first quote General Johnson says "The Air Force policy is clear..". If this policy is so clear why would " implementation require thoughtful judgment and careful balance"? Is this something 18-22 year old cadets are suppose to understand? How about AOCs? Supposedly this issue was discussed at least at the group level before the cadet "voluntarily" decided to remove the bible verse.

In the second quote General Johnson says "..the cadet did not feel that his right to free exercise of religion was infringed upon". Great....this time! However, what if the cadet DID feel that his right to free exercise of religion was infringed upon? Where is the "strong teaching and learning moment" in this?

Again....I admit I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer....but it seems as though whatever is being said here is not very clear...at least to me. Hopefully the cadets are brighter than I am.

 

[aglages]

How about some guidance from "higher up" in the AF?

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/air-force-leaders-detail-force-cuts-defend-religion-policies-1.272814
When asked about the whiteboard incident at USAFA Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James told a Congressional budget committee:
“It’s balancing that free expression of religion with the needs of the military and not giving the appearance or an actuality of forcing anything [on airmen].”

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh III told another lawmaker that service members have a right not to be proselytized to by religious airmen.
“You have every right to your beliefs and to practice your faith freely. If someone asks you about your faith, tell them everything about it. [But] if they don’t ask you, don’t assume they want or need to know.”

 

[raimius]

The statement does not negatively affect me. I am a Catholic. I am also an American. It does however offends me that people thinks it is Ok to post a religious verse on public white board in a publicly financed institution. What is more scary are those who defend it as a right. It is a slippery slope first biblical verses then, muslem, then hindue, then name your belief. No one should not be subject to religious statements on public white boards on their way to class. The academy did the right thing removing it. No one should be punished or lose their jobs.

The dorms are also cadet's homes. Unless things have changed, the board itself was likely purchased by the cadets. It is not like the AF paid to write personal religious messages.

 

[aglages]

No one should not be subject to religious statements on public white boards on their way to class. The academy did the right thing removing it.

The dorms are also cadet's homes.

Actually I think the rooms within the dorms might be considered the cadet's homes. If I am following this correctly, it is permissible to display personal religious messages on your whiteboard within your own room.

Unless things have changed, the board itself was likely purchased by the cadets. It is not like the AF paid to write personal religious messages.

I don't think it matters who paid for a whiteboard (or any other message medium). What seems to be important in this latest incident at USAFA is what Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh III said:

..that service members have a right not to be proselytized to by religious airmen.
“You have every right to your beliefs and to practice your faith freely. If someone asks you about your faith, tell them everything about it. [But] if they don’t ask you, don’t assume they want or need to know.”

That would seem to include religious messages in "public" hallways at taxpayer supported institutions/colleges/military bases.

Perhaps someone else has a different interpretation?

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh III said:

"..that service members have a right not to be proselytized to by religious airmen.
You have every right to your beliefs and to practice your faith freely. If someone asks you about your faith, tell them everything about it. [But] if they don’t ask you, don’t assume they want or need to know.”



This. ^^+1. Just a few sentences that are doused with a lot of common sense. Case closed.

 

[aglages]

Just a few sentences that are doused with a lot of common sense. Case closed.

It is disappointing that Lt. Gen. Michelle D. Johnson (Superintendent of USAFA) rambled on for over 600 words and still failed to communicate anywhere nearly as clearly.