Academy honor cases focus on redemption, not expulsion

[Luigi59]

luigi59:
would you elaborate please, what was the violation, just curious

It involved underage alcohol use and the subsequent denial of it. A conduct offense turned into an honor offense, however the "honor offense" was overlooked.

Yes it occured, but I guess if an offense is ignored and never goes before a board and is tried and found guilty, than it never happened.

Thus my comment about "1 strike not always means you're out" as demonstrated by this case. If the "umpire" chooses to ignore the pitch right down the middle of the plate, then it's not a "strike."

Exceptions are made at every service academy, and at VMI.

Believe it. That's all I'll say about it.

 

[wannabe2013]

so you are the all knowing guru of the USNA honor concept

If a cadet has no value of honor instilled in them in the eighteen years of growing up prior to reporting to the academy you believe you can teach them honor in four years using your 95 page honor guide.

It is you I fear who has little or no understanding of a code of honor. Honor is not something that can be learned from a book or through lectures. Honor is doing what is right, even when it's not the easiest, fastest or most popular.
Honor isn't knowing right from wrong, I believe every human is born with that knowledge. It is the intestinal fortitude to do what is right.

Don't lie, cheat or steal pretty much sums it up and don't worry about somebody else doing the honorable thing, just set the example by doing the honorable thing yourself. Lead by example.

Ask any midshipman about what we are taught about the honor system here and they will agree that what I said is true of the Honor Concept. Like it or not, this is the Academy's honor system. FYI most mids do not like it and do not think it is getting the job done. Which is why there is a lot of things changing from within the Brigade trying to take back the self-ownership which actually makes the system effective.

 

[CurrentMid]

Wann...2013 has some good points, but as a Plebe - I am assuming you are actually on the yard...you also may be a bit naive in you assumptions. As I am about to take my place in the Fleet or Corps I do challenge you to take a leadership position in the Brigade when the time comes. Change will need to come from within if it is to be effective and lasting. What is going on presently makes me a bit nervous about the effect the current policy will have in the Fleet.

First and foremost there is a problem, it is not a problem that is being drummed up by disgruntled alumni or attorneys. The problem lies on the yard, within the Brigade and within the Senior leadership. The Brigade would like nothing more than to take back Honor and Conduct, but then again that is somewhat a lot of talk with little action. When an honor violation comes before the board very few sitting on the board will, in the end, recommend separation. Those who do are then looked down upon, labeled as non team playing stripers etc.

Why did it take 8 or 9 academic honor violations for a class of 2010 football player - a very good player at that, to be separated last summer? (Fully documented outside the confines of the yard)

I could name all sorts but really they are all private matters, should not be open for dissection here, nor appropriate for me to lead the discussion. Let those who seek "open information" take that lead.

That being said there are those who are doing just that and it has lead to much press both mainstream and in the blog world. Not that I like the press but maybe that is what it is going to take to have the leadership, including Alumni, take a look at this issue, and its consequences. You all may not view the blog or mainstream press as healthy discussion, but at least it does get the issues out in the open. Whether you want to believe there is a problem or not is your choice. I just ask that you not dismiss this as only the view of a few disgruntled Alumni with hidden agendas, nor as fabricated by mainstream or blog press.

Not that I am onboard with the blog world but there are a few that are generally right on or at least makes one think: http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2009/11/waiting-for-call-of-racism-in-3-2-1.html

Also you all might want to take a look at the blog from the U.S. Naval Institute: http://blog.usni.org/?p=4926

Please do not turn this into a discussion on Professor Flemming - it has been done here enough and will not provide any substance to this thread.

 

[Malachy Marine]

CurrentMid makes a few good points. As a recent grad and former member of the Senior MIDN Honor Staff, I believe I have a fairly good view of the recent state of the Honor Concept at the USNA. First, to deal with some key features of the "Concept" vice "Code:"

1. Most Mids will tell you they prefer a Concept to a Code... I would tend to agree with them. As a Code results in a punishment-based obedience, compared to the Concept which emphasizes (or rather should, if implemented appropriately) self-assessment and true ownership over the ideas of integrity and honor.

2. In practice, the Honor Concept is not enforced evenly across all aspects of the Brigade and there are certain risk groups at the Academy for Honor Violations.

3. The argument that "No one went to Honor Boards when I went to Annapolis. And now there are Boards all the time!!!" Doesn't hold any water in my eyes. This could be a result of one of two things: either MIDN are more willing to accuse others of Violations now or there are just more Violations. Knowing that MIDN tend to very little in personality over the years (you can reference old copies of "The Log" if you want proof), I find it unlikely that MIDN were "soooooo" much more honorable back then.

4. MIDN have a fair amount of power within the current system and the new one under construction (mostly figures on administrative aspects of the system, not actual findings of In Violation). They generally choose to avoid such power, and then complain about not having any. It is extremely difficult to get an Honor Board to a finding of In Violation. So those who are found IV tend to be more serious offenses.

5. Many cases do not go to Boards because MIDN plead Guilty. In this case, under the current system the case is held at a low level (Company Commander). IMHO because CC's have very little power except in the Honor realm they choose to exercise it. Even when it is grossly inappropriate to do so.

6. However, one of my biggest issues with the system is that with a finding of In Violation and a strong recommendation of separation from a Violator's MIDN CoC including their Regt Cmdr. When the Commandant makes their decision it is with these "recommendations," and invariably the Commandant will make his/her own judgement. This comes back to the difficulty of getting a finding of In Violation (at least 6 votes of 9 required). I have seen cases with findings of 7-2 and higher along with strong recommendations for separation go to the Dant and be retained. Not the only problem with the system, but a significant one.

7. The Honor Staff does not just "prosecute" violations. There is also a substantial remediation arm (to deal with those retained) as well as an education arm (designed to educate MIDN and provide examples of when Honor can fail in individuals or groups). The education pamphlets are usually passed out during Noon Meal and are generally ignored by hungry MIDN.

8. I won't get into the Diversity aspects of the Concept, regarding the different upbringings individuals entering the Academy experienced. I do believe there is some learning curve that can be afforded individuals; however, I know of a specific case where an individual from an underprivileged background was given a significantly wide berth regarding Honor and a Firstie's car that the then Plebe "borrowed" without knowledge of the owner. And went on to commit many more offenses in a short period of time. He is no longer enrolled at the USNA.

9. MIDN need to take a more proactive role and exercise the power they are afforded within the current Honor Concept in order to change the current state of affairs. That being said, i do not believe the Honor Concept is in crisis.

Please send your questions, criticisms, and comments.