Academy recommends separation for Owens

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by USNA69, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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  2. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    It reeks to high heaven, if you ask me. :unhappy:
     
  3. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    I'm afraid it is going to end up on 60 Minutes and EVERYONE is going to look bad.
     
  4. nosmileysforme

    nosmileysforme Member

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    Yeah; now the media can include segments on the three largest service academy's. It's not too late for the Merchant Marines and the Coast Guard Academy's to join in. Better hurry though; sex, lies, and drugs are already taken.

    Of course if the media were open and objective and compared the behavior of the academy's students against the college population as a whole the academy's would look quite good. But then that wouldn't be a story that sells on prime time.
     
  5. ChipAyten

    ChipAyten Member

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    Regardless, if this is smeared worse than the Astronaut thing at least in my eyes it would not take away from the prestige and honor that goes along with the service academies.
     
  6. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    The problem with this particular case is that Lamar Owens was found NOT GUILTY in a court martial.
    The current supe, misguidedly, thinks that by sacrifycing this young man's military career and education he is "protecting" the female midshipmen in Annapolis.
    The entire case against Owens is a sham.

    If the mainstream media takes on this case and looks at it fairly from both sides then maybe, just maybe, Congress would see how Owens has been victimized by Rempt.

    Rempt is so worried about "doing the right thing" here and creating a "safe" environment for female midshipmen - and he has it all wrong.
     
  7. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    I purposely did not present a lot of facts in my original post because I don't know a lot of facts, only what I have heard from grads and read in the newspaper.

    Here is my understanding of the situation:
    When the charges were brought forward, the Supt had two basic choices, to handle it within house or to recommend it to a courts martial. He chose the latter.

    The alleged victim was offered immunity to testify. My first cynical remark will be "why does a midshipmen need immunity to tell the truth?".

    The CM found LO innocent of rape but guily of conduct unbecoming an officer (consensual sex in the barracks, I assume) and failure to obey a restraining order to stay away from the AV. Now the sticky part: The CM recommended no punishment for the lesser two charges. Could the fact that the AV was granted immunity and received no punishment, leave the court with no other choice than "no punishment" for LO's commiting of the same offense? I am not a UCMJ expert and do not know the ramifications of a grant of immunity.

    Meantime, the Superintendent made several public and private comments that LO was guilty and would not graduate.

    The CM reviewing authority upheld the findings of the CM.

    The Supt, receiving the findings and not liking them one bit, banished LO to the Navy Yard for over six months until Friday, a week ago, when he was summoned to his office. LO was not permitted council. Navy JAG officers were present. We do not know what was discussed and if, in fact, there was any bargaining.

    From the Sun and Post articles, it appears that LO will not graduate, will not be commissioned, will not have to pay back his education expenses, and will be granted an administrative discharge.

    Rumors indicate that the Supt listed four factors as relevant in his decision:
    -LO had amassed 185 demerits. Many have amassed many more and graduated. My understanding is that the majority of the demerits were for sex in Bancroft Hall for which the AV is still there.
    -An "F" in aptitude for spring semester. His aptitude (grease) was good enough for him previously to be designated a striper. The "F" was a result of this allegation alone.
    -Downloading porn off the internet. Sticky one here. Serious enough for dismissal? The curve ball is that the Academy makes every attempt to recoup as much of the midshipmens salary as possible. My understanding is that they are charged for internet usage. So it must be compared to home internet usage instead of a business-type environment. So we have an adult viewing porn on his own internet site on a computer for which he was forced to purchase and also on his own time.
    -Lastly, he cites the two CM convictions for reason to dismiss. The same two reasons that the CM recommended no punishment. So these two charges combined with the above, the first two which only existed due to the false allegations, are sufficient to discharge him. In essence, was he discharged only as an adult, viewing porn from his rented internet source, on his own computer, on his own time? Kind of seems like it to me. I seriously doubt if this is the standard punishment for this infraction which, I am sure, has happened before.

    The Academy has gone way beyond double jeopardy in this case and into the realm of a "railroad" job.

    In addition to JAMs comment about the Supt's attempt to create a "safe" environment, rumor is that he is positioning himself for his second career, that of the President of a civilian college.

    My concern is that the sea services have difficulty attracting minorities, especially black males. What signal is this sending to them?

    My other concern is what is being done with all the proceeds from the sale of the #2 football jersey and whether it will continue to be available or will it become a collector's item available only on ebay? (what do i have to do to put a smilie here?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2007
  8. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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  9. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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  10. The Commissioner

    The Commissioner Retired Staff Member Founding Member

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    If freedom is a rock, political correctness is flowing water.
     
  11. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Is Rempt bipolar or something? :confused:
     
  12. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Does anyone know who's paying LO's civilian legal bills? I know Reid Weingarten (his attorney) and know he charges at least $700/hr, not to mention the time and expenses his associates & others are putting in. I would expect that the bills are well into the 6 figures at this point. I'm just guessing LO (or any other mid/mid's family for that matter) doesn't have that kind of money laying around. I realize Reid could be doing it pro bono but doubt it.

    Beyond that, I honestly haven't followed the case closely enough to comment on the merits (know what I've read but haven't read everything and even then what's in the papers isn't always the full story -- on any issue).

    My only concern is that LO be treated no differently (no better, no worse) than another mid in the same situation who is not: (1) a football player and (2) the "star" QB of the team. My opinion (for what it's worth -- but this IS a debate forum) is that the team gets way too many privileges, etc. This isn't OSU or Michigan or even ND. It's a taxpayer funded school to produce military officers. Football players -- and other varsity athletes -- should be/must be mids first. A prior Supe had a lot of problems b/c he lost sight of that fact. Maybe Rempt is leaning too far the other way -- don't know.

    (Standing by to take the arrows) :biggrin:
     
  13. cga82

    cga82 Banned

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    usna1985- here are your arrows--:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

    You're right on the money. Football is big business and the Academies can't compete and shouldn't even try to compete with this business.
     
  14. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    One article I read implied that several alumni got together and pooled money for the legal representation.

    The only two people who will ever know the full story are those who were there that night - even that seems to be in doubt.

    I could not agree with you more. Consider this - what if - he is not only being held to a higher standard because he is a football player, but he was "sacrificed" because he is a football player.

    I agree completely. These are kids - 18-mid 20's - they are put on a pedastal for just being midshipmen. Now take them and make them "star" athletes as well. The Annapolis/USNA culture turns them into Royalty. When one messes up it becomes big news. The culture needs changing. Right now the message is that since mids (and cadets) are ssooooo special and work so hard and sacrifice so much - after all they "give up" normal college life (whatever that is) - then "blowing off a little steam" seems to be "well deserved". While drinking and parties and the adoration continue so will the bad behavior continue on both sides. Make the athletes mids first and knock the mids off that pedestal just a little.
     
  15. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    JAM, I think you got carried away a little here. Everytime I see a group of mids, I don't see a garden of statues but a group of young men and women who are working very hard for their achievements and who are sacrificing much and preparing to possibly sacrifice it all.

    Varsity athletes do better career wise than non-athletes. Several studies have shown that varsity athletes are measurably higher in both promotion and career status. The latest I saw for football players was 13% higher promotion rate through O-4. Maybe we ought to field a second football team. And don't forget where the money for the rifle team comes from.
     
  16. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    I couldn't agree with you more - you missed my point. I am talking about the Culture in and around Annapolis. There is no doubt in my mind that plenty of bad behavior takes place on both sides. In order to change the bad behavior - one must change the culture.
    Take any hardworking, self sacrificing kid and put them in Annapolis where they are subject to tourist gawking at them everyday and a town that reveres midshipmen because they add so much to the ecomony - it isn't hard to see that once the behavior gets over the top it becomes big news.
    Make that kid a star athlete and heads roll.
     
  17. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    I don't think I missed your point at all. Maybe I just didn't explain myself as well as I should.

    The Academy does just the opposite. It takes 1250 +/- prima donnas each year, the cream of their high schools, the best of their athletes, and turns them into what most think, at least some of the time, is a below average midshipman. For the first time in their life they will have to choose what it important, be it academics, professional bearing, or athletics.

    So far as the townies and the business establishments, most don't see the economic advantage, just the fact that they are everywhere and a bother. Never saw any "Dogs and Midshipmen stay off the grass" signs but would not have been surprised and the reference was made repeatedly in the Academy humor magazine. Most midshipment cannot wait to get out of town and into civilian clothes so as not to be a visible part of this.

    The following recent reporting, copied directly from an alumni website pretty much typifies the regard midshipment have for tourists:

    "Item: Plebes have a rotating responsibility to announce 10, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 minute before formation, in a strictly formatted ritual known as “chow call”. This is a tough challenge when you have a class the period before noon meal formation. One young lad was hurrying back to do his duty when one of the tourii (the Latin plural of tourist, of course) asked him if he would pose with them for a picture. In a somewhat agitated state he looked at her and said “F*ck no, lady, I got chow call!” Supposedly she noted his name from his nametag and reported him to Main Office."

    As far as jocks, my son was one. I was one. My son's roommate was captain of the football team. I have met, talked to, and socialized with a lot of athletes, including football players. I see kids who work a lot harder, bring a little recognition to the academy, and get looked at under a microscope by the rest of the Brigade. Ask my son his biggest shock of his entire Naval career and he will tell you that it is his roommate becoming a career surface officer. He got into the fleet, did extremely well, decided he liked it, and is now a career Naval Office, commencing as a blue-chip football recruit who couldn't wait to get out of the Navy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  18. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Oh my! I picture you pacing in your kitchen arguing with yourself. Just for the sake of arguing.
    If you would just stop and read what I wrote....................

    The Lamar Owens case is a tragedy. A tragedy for him, for the woman involved, for the academy. Is he being hung out to dry? Very possibly. Is he being held up for an example because he is a football player? Very possibly.
    I also think part of why he got into this trouble is because of being a football player at Annapolis. Now read very carefully: The Annapolis Culture - on the yard and off the yard - unfairly hoists these kids up on a pedestal and then disappears when they fall off. I am not picking on just Annapolis because it happens at a lot of other places as well.
    The economy of Annapolis benefits greatly from the Yard - much more than Highland Falls benefits from West Point.
    It isn't just the midshipmen's disposable income but the income from tourist who flock there from touring DC and Baltimore as a side trip to see the "quaint town and it's sailors". They are allowed on the yard freely to gawk.
    Now look at the number of bars in Annapolis, I seriously doubt most of them would be there if they weren't patronized by the brigade.
    IMO, this incident was a result of drinking to excess. To prevent such incidences from occuring - we do want to prevent this from happening again don't we?- the culture of condoning such drinking needs to be changed.
     
  19. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Chill, guys. Nothing to get worked up over. Sadly, we're not going to solve it here.
     

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