AFA Informant Program

The article is dated yesterday...by now word will have spread throughout all of the SA's. In all probability these young men and women will react by becoming less trusting, less tolerant, less forthcoming, more secretive, more independent (Shipmate? What shipmate? Why should I give a damn about my shipmates?) and yes, less honorable going forward.

Playing devil's advocate on this (for the sake of debate) ...

Or will this motivate the academy members to adhere to the codes and rules they have sworn to uphold?
 
osdad,

It has spread across the net. It is one of the top stories on www.military.com. It is on www.baseops.net.

Basically, if you chime into anything military on the web for news you are going to find the article.

The next question will be the fall out, because there will be fall out.
 
Well, if the CSAF wasn't aware of this before (which I'm pretty sure he wasn't; as it has been mentioned before, this was WAY below his interest level), I'm also pretty sure he is NOW (getting into the media, it has now reached his interest level).
 
I am also going to play devil's advocate, but before I do, I want to make it clear that I think what occurred to the cadet was wrong.

Now for devil's advocate, what makes anyone think that this wasn't occurring? Our friend's husband at Ft. Drum was undercover for OSI. If you saw him, you wouldn't guess he was military. He had long hair, a gruffy beard, and never wore a uniform. He lived off base with another undercover member. His job was to follow suspected military members off base that were reported for illegal actions, such as buying/selling drugs. They didn't play big brother, the tip had to be validated 1st to have merit.

It happens on many bases/posts that there are undercover members.

Devil's advocate, I am just saying that even from a standpoint of why the CSAF was out of the loop and not informed is easy to see, because somewhere along their career path, they were a Squadron CC, a DOG, a VWC, and a Wing King//Queen. They also probably were in charge of a number AF too. I am sure they have seen at least one AD member under their command be arrested when they were a SCC or Wing, but as they go up the ladder the impact on their job becomes less, and more of clearing paperwork off the desk to sign off on, and when they get to CSAF that clearing off is below them.
~~~ These guys go in at 6 a.m. and sometimes don't leave before 8 p.m. Their jobs are so much bigger. Remember, in essence they are CEO's of a Fortune 500 company. Their job is not to micro-manage every dept. They place directives, and allow the lower echelons to manage the directives.

Was it wrong to disavow them like something out of Mission Impossible? Yes.
Will it create distrust? Maybe.

My brother that admire once said to me something I always repeated to my children.
~ Anything you do that you feel must be done in hiding/secrecy should tell you immediately it is something you should not be doing.

I believe the method is debatable, but I have no problem with them doing it. Many parents/cadets state that they see the SAs as being part of the military. Than, under that scenario, cadets should also be up to receiving the same punishment for breaking the rules set forth by the military as an AD.

Bullet has not chimed in, but I remember when he was at CGSC, they take the officers on a tour of the base, and of course the prison is one of the spots. When he came home he said that they were told the one of the largest numbers of prisoners were drug related. This was in the news at the time.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...man-neil-talbott-air-force-academy-blue-nitro
Drug Testing Under Fire In Air Academy Scandal.

A major drug scandal at the U.S. Air Force Academy is highlighting concern that cadets are using illegal substances such as Ecstasy that are difficult to detect with standard drug tests. The scandal has prompted talk of a congressional investigation.

The investigation entered a new phase in the past week, as one cadet, senior Stephen Pouncey, 22, was court-martialed Jan. 31 and sentenced to 42 months in military prison in Leavenworth, Kan., for using and distributing drugs such as Ecstasy and LSD.

LMAO...Bullet xposted with me!
 
Playing devil's advocate on this (for the sake of debate) ...

Or will this motivate the academy members to adhere to the codes and rules they have sworn to uphold?

They may have sworn to uphold those codes and rules, but now there will be no trust at all. Knowing that your roommate, shipmate, teammate, whatever may be secretly recording your words or taking pictures/video just doesn't seem conducive to esprit de corps. It seems to be just one more attack on our military . Now everyone has to be looking over their shoulders wondering if the guy next to them in the "foxhole" is a spy (and not for the enemy). It's disgusting.
 
Side note....is it only me wondering, but what do you think the atmosphere at the Pentagon level AF PA office is like today?

I would say like most of us, they really hate MONDAY, but especially this week!

future,

I disagree with you. Like I said earlier, if you have nothing to hide than you are not looking over your shoulder every second of the day. It would not be in your character to distrust others. It is a realm/sphere/circle that does not touch your life. You will be secure, and wouldn't care.

I state this because like I said earlier anyone in the AD world knows that there are undercover agents in the military, and I don't see them distrusting their peers when it comes to covering their 6.

That is just me talking, and I am just a wife of a retired officer, and a Mom of an ADAF officer, so my opinion is just an outsider.

I would also point out that these busts have been going on for decades. Again, check out the link I posted which occurred in 01. It happened again in 03.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/us/3-at-academy-are-charged-in-drug-cases.html

I am too lazy to look further. These 2 incidents were ecstasy, and there have been the sexual assaults, spice, etc. The one item they have in common is they usually have more than 1 cadet involved. To me, that means this was more than got caught with it. It always looked like to me that it was a deep investigation, and people fessed up others when interviewed by OSI.
Yet, for decades the majority of AD members still work side by side and trust each other. (The 1st link was 01, the 2nd was 03) those cadets went onto serve ADAF, and many, especially rated are still in ADAF. Like I said, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

We ask them to live at a higher standard than the avg person., and we must believe that it is in all of their moral fiber to do so when raising that right hand. We must believe they want them out of the military too, and do not see it as big brother, but respecting the law.
~ If you knew your neighbor was cooking meth in their garage, would you report it to the police? If so would you fear that your neighbors think you are a nark, and not trust you?
~~~ Or would you believe they respect you for making your neighborhood safer?

Isn't that what they are doing? Making the military safer by reporting? Think about it. For the AF, basically 50% go rated. Do you want drug dealers, rapists, etc. flying an aircraft that cost millions, and more importantly responsible for someone else's 6 when it comes to doing their job.
~ My answer is NO. My DS is at UPT now and tracked T-1, aka heavies. I don't want him flying the right or left seat with a person that does drugs off duty. I am sure Stealth doesn't want his DS (16s) to have a wingman that does drugs.

Is it harsh? Yes, but the fact is this is life, and in the military it may also be death. Nark away if it means they are safer. I think that those left will appreciate their 6 more than worrying about trust.

Again, I am not trying to be antagonistic. Just trying to say, that most of the cadets, military members care more about the mission than some fear that maybe someone is recording them when they have nothing to hide in the 1st place.
 
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I wonder how much money this cadet, who was kicked out just six weeks before graduation, is going to have to pay back. They strung him along for two years, using him to get what they wanted, causing his academics to suffer, etc. The whole story is sickening!
 
I wonder how much money this cadet, who was kicked out just six weeks before graduation, is going to have to pay back. They strung him along for two years, using him to get what they wanted, causing his academics to suffer, etc. The whole story is sickening!

I believe I read his only break was NO payback to USAFA.
 
Thanks for the clarification about the CoS.

I only mentioned it because of this statement in the article:



I thought that someone (the only one) with authority over both organizations might know when they are interacting with each other, as he is the only person who controlled both.

Considering the span of responsibility that the CoS of the AF has, it is very unlikely that this would even appear on his radar. The OSI agents only report to the central office in D.C.. from there the CoS would have authority over them. And they have no obligation to report to the commanding officer at the base, so it is very possible that the Supe would have no idea as to the nature of these operations.

Bruno - I am totally with you as for getting heads on platters, according to the article, the OSI agents were telling the cadet informants to lie to commanders, members of congress, and to destroy documents that could be subpenaed under the Freedom of Information Act.
 
I understand what you are saying, Pima. I am a civilian, so I certainly don't know much about what goes on in the military. But as far as the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't mind" line of thinking, I do mind when I am body scanned, wanded, instructed to take off my shoes, jacket, etc and my personal belongings poked through, even though I am doing nothing wrong. To be owned by the government is one thing, but when the government becomes corrupt, it's entirely different. That's what scares me.
 
From the article: "Agents interrogate cadets for hours without offering access to a lawyer, threaten them with prosecution, then coerce them into helping OSI in exchange for promises of leniency they don’t always keep."

Are cadets entitled to legal representation in situations like this? What access to legal representation is available to cadets? Are the cadets aware that they do or do not have access to help?
 
I understand what you are saying, Pima. I am a civilian, so I certainly don't know much about what goes on in the military. But as far as the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't mind" line of thinking, I do mind when I am body scanned, wanded, instructed to take off my shoes, jacket, etc and my personal belongings poked through, even though I am doing nothing wrong. To be owned by the government is one thing, but when the government becomes corrupt, it's entirely different. That's what scares me.

Agreed.
 
Playing devil's advocate on this (for the sake of debate) ...

Or will this motivate the academy members to adhere to the codes and rules they have sworn to uphold?

Doubtful, there is a lot of social studies done on this subject and the impact of this sort of intelligence gathering is profoundly negative.
 
From the article: "Agents interrogate cadets for hours without offering access to a lawyer, threaten them with prosecution, then coerce them into helping OSI in exchange for promises of leniency they don’t always keep."

Are cadets entitled to legal representation in situations like this? What access to legal representation is available to cadets? Are the cadets aware that they do or do not have access to help?

The operative phrase here is due process, those of us in uniform still have protections under the law.
 
Doubtful, there is a lot of social studies done on this subject and the impact of this sort of intelligence gathering is profoundly negative.

Falconfamily: is your position that these illegal and code violations are destined to take place and that this intelligence gathering activity (no longer secret) will cause a profoundly negative affect (increase) on the incident of violations?

Without commentary on the intelligence gathering program itself, it just seems to me that the average student has nothing to worry about if doing nothing wrong and that even the rumour of such a program might prohibit some (but not all) from ever doing anything that the program might target. Can you accept that premise?
 
The operative phrase here is due process, those of us in uniform still have protections under the law.

Thanks. That is what I thought, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. This story is disturbing on many levels. I am anxious to speak with my DD (a C4C at USAFA) and hear her thoughts about it.
 
Instead of re-hashing your side/my side. I will say this is what bothered me the most from the www.military.com link.
The program also appears to rely disproportionately on minority cadets like Thomas.

Now, to me that is something the AF should hang their cranium in shame!

It is not corrupt to "flip" someone, but it kind of reminds me of Ocean 12, at the end with Linus (Matt Damon) before you know it is his Mom. The scene is set as he has the most to loose because he is young.
~ That is despicable. The fact that maybe they are picking and choosing based on their background is wrong.

OBTW, I have flown overseas since 1984, and you always had to open your bags going international. Do I find it a PIMA to take off my belt and shoes? Yes! However, I am more than happy to do the 60 second inconvenience for my safety.
~~~ Want to get the:eek: Did you know when you visit places like Disney, your hand scan to enter is registered?

I get Big Brother and we may have taken it too far, but again, I couldn't care less. I have nothing to hide.

OBTW, in case you didn't realize what PIMA meant now you know...Pain In My Arse! In the AF it is common to have a callsign, and long story short Bullet gave me that name. I have loved it for 18 yrs., even have had personalized license plates with PIMA on it.
 
For whatever it's worth, what bothers me is not that such investigations occur, or even that CI's are used at the SAs. I mostly agree with the idea that our cadets MUST be held to a higher standard and deserve (yes, deserve) to live with benefits... and consequences of an honor code.

But beyond the shock value and revelations in this story, are some fundamental issues around due process and rights of the accused. As well as profound questions on how the informants are treated. These are afterall teenagers and in some rare cases, minors even!

For example....

Article 31 provides servicemembers with a broad protection against being compelled to incriminate themselves. The text of Article 31 provides as follows:

a. No person subject to this chapter may compel any person to incriminate himself or to answer any questions the answer to which may tend to incriminate him.

b. No person subject to this chapter may interrogate or request any statement from an accused or a person suspected of an offense without first informing him of the nature of the accusation and advising him that he does not have to make any statement regarding the offense of which he is accused or suspected, and that any statement made by him may be used as evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.

c. No person subject to this chapter may compel any person to make a statement or produce evidence before any military tribunal if the statement or evidence is not material to the issue and may tend to degrade him.

d. No statement obtained from any person in violation of this article, or through the use of coercion, unlawful influence, or unlawful inducement, may be received in evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.


Do we really want to say to these young men and women who have taken the oath and are in the military (yes, most folks here agree they are "in" the military), you are not afforded the protections of UCMJ or any other measure such as Miranda rights? Instead we can simply use whatever methods we feel are appropriate to feret out wrong doings without any restrictions, oversight or consideration for your rights whatsoever.

THAT is where I draw the line.
 
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Falconfamily: is your position that these illegal and code violations are destined to take place and that this intelligence gathering activity (no longer secret) will cause a profoundly negative affect (increase) on the incident of violations?

Without commentary on the intelligence gathering program itself, it just seems to me that the average student has nothing to worry about if doing nothing wrong and that even the rumour of such a program might prohibit some (but not all) from ever doing anything that the program might target. Can you accept that premise?

I think you are misstating my position on this matter. This type of intel gathering affects the whole wing by creating an environment of distrust between peers and leadership. The idea that people you live with might be acting as informants impacts the goals of unit cohesion and mutual trust which are very important to the performance of a military unit.

The problem is not with the 4000 cadets of the Wing or Corps, it is with certain individuals in the Wing, but this program is a blunt instrument that impacts all of them by undermining the foundations of the institution and the values that it tries to promote. Keep in mind that the goal of this program is not intervention, but of investigation and while it may take more time and effort for the OSI investigators to prosecute a case, it is still possible for them to accomplish their mission without damaging the institution they are supposed to protect.
 
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