AFA may drop "So help me God" from oath

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by thepalmers4, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. thepalmers4

    thepalmers4 Member

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  2. EagleDriver

    EagleDriver Member

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    “A Time For Prayer

    "In times of war and not before,
    God and the soldier we adore.
    But in times of peace and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the soldier slighted."

    -Rudyard Kipling”

    I sincerely hope AFA does not bow down to that Weinstein schmuck.....
     
  3. T-Bone

    T-Bone Member

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    This along with all of the other anti-Christian messages I have heard about in the military recently, makes me want to talk to my son about his decision to join the USAF.

    Very sad!
     
  4. jmj

    jmj New Member

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    So help us God...

    ... and keep USA as One Nation Under God
     
  5. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Well. it's more a case of an outside group complaining about it and citing a couple Constitutional phrases that it supposedly violates. I think the superintendent is taking alternatives under consideration, but my own guess regarding the outcome is that people will add "so help me God" at their discretion, if there is any change at all.
     
  6. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Oh god. More BS. What a shame that Chrisitians can't make everyone pay homage to their deity anymore.

    Maybe it should say "So help me Allah." Or would that not be good?
     
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  7. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    As with other oaths, they will probably change it to either "so help me God" or "so I affirm." As those are the norm for the officer's oath.

    While I feel just like scout..... I'll be more PC. ;) That said, come on guys, there is no Christian discrimination at USAFA. Never once did I see anyone discriminated because they were a Christian, and IF discrimination happened, it was the other way around. And to advise your child to rethink USAFA for making the God part of an oath optional (guess what, some of us are atheist, agnostic, or have a religious that isn't "God") if pretty ridiculous.

    Anyway, Starnes is pretty well-known for seeking out "Christian discrimination" in the military, making scandal where there is none. So I hardly bother worrying about this terrible scandal!
     
  8. Hopefull Dad

    Hopefull Dad Member

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    Context of God in oath

    You shouldn’t assume in this context that God is referring to Jesus Christ, I. E. Christian. The God referenced here is just implying a superior being.

    My 2 cents.
     
  9. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    And some of you are wrong.

    I'm not going to beat my beliefs into someone, but whether they like it or not, I believe there's one God, one Son and one Holy Spirit. You're free to disagree, but that doesn't make you right or enlightened. Scout tends to get all worked up when you mention "Christian" as if he's the downcast and downtrodden.... OK. Doesn't mean he's right. And yes, I understand my saying "this doesn't make you right" doesn't mean you think I'm right (although, I am). :wink:
     
  10. Rage_14

    Rage_14 Member

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    To be perfectly honest, I've never really liked you, and I know its easy to say from "X" miles away over the internet, but it would be the same face to face. There is a provision for people who do not want to say it. They don't have to if they don't want to. And for what it is worth, I have had more people who would say they are agnostic, atheist, or believe in another supreme being shove their opinions down my throat and tell me that what I hold to be true is wrong or stupid than I have ever heard of any other person proselytizing their belief system to other cadets. Beyond that, this isn't Weinstein's honor oath, or yours Scout. It was written by cadets, and its integrity is upheld by cadets. Granted there are the ones who make the news and make the rest of the institution look bad, but the vast majority of cadets are good, honest people who hold themselves to the standard of the honor oath. If there is to be a change to it, I think it should be made by the cadets.
     
  11. DevilDog

    DevilDog Member

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    I would venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of the cadets at all these institutions believe in some form of higher being. The God we speak of is the same God for Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Do we really need to change something for a fraction of the population that is "offended" by it? This PC world and country is out of control.
     
  12. haleym

    haleym Member

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    "There are no atheists in foxholes." That's what my dad always told me! Haha.

    It's our oath, and I have never heard anyone express concern over it. This article is just to rile people up over nothing. Even if push did come to shove, I trust that General Johnson would make the right decision, and/or let her cadets decide. After all, we are the ones who have to adhere to it.
     
  13. NavyHoops

    NavyHoops Moderator

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    I agree this is a Cadet oath to the honor code, run by the Cadets, written by the Cadets and should be modified only by them. They are the ones that run the system and live by it. It allows Cadets to use either path of their choosing when taking the oath so I am fine with it. And yes, haleym, there are plenty of atheists in foxholes, I know this because I was and still am one of them.
     
  14. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    You've been watching too much Fox News then, as they seem to be the one with an agenda here (make mountains out of mole-hills on the "persecution" of the Christian right).

    But seriously, you're feeling that your son shouldn't be joining the AF becuase they are "Anti-Christian"? Really? I'm sorry, but my personal priorities on why one would want to serve or not, in a particualr branch or not, or in a particular career field or not, are slightly different. But then, to each his own.

    And I'm sure he'll lose sleep tonight over your assessment of him.

    But I agree that this is a cadet Oath, and should be overseen by the cadets.

    That being said, my experience over these past 30+ years associated in the military has been a tad different than yours. I see it that perhaps so many non-Christains are now vocal about your beliefs is that they are finally tired of the many more times Christains have been shoving their views of morality and non-tolerance of other views down everyone else's throats. Not all Christains, certainly. But a VERY vocal minority. Frankly, they deserve the so-called and Fox News trumped up payback.

    I have had exactly 2 commanders in my career whom had a negative attitude toward me, both of which went out of their way in efforts to hurt my career. The common thread between the two? Super Religious Christains who didn't like the fact that I didn't follow thier "morality" code (one even lectured me for suggesting a squadron family Halloween party, and put me in his dog-house for the rest of the time he was my commander over it. Real Christain attitude from THAT one!). I could tell you that my other commanders who were agnotstic or followers of another diety were the same, but frankly THEY NEVER MENTIONED THEIR FAITH, OR LACK OF IT, TO ME OR INQUIRED ABOUT MINE.

    Which is the way it should be.

    As to the Oath, it's just words everyone. It is what is in your heart that matters. And no one can take that from you.
     
  15. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    :thumb: +1! ^^ This guy gets it! (As usual)
     
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  16. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Folks,

    I realize the original post is tied up with religion but please resist the temptation to turn this discussion into a debate over one's religious preferences. This forum/site isn't the place for that.

    Your friendly Mod.
     
  17. sprog

    sprog Member

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    I don't think you run into Establishment Clause problems with "so help me God." An atheist wouldn't even have to say the words. I've had to take an oath once or twice since leaving the service, and I just said "so help me."

    The term "ceremonial deism" has been used in dicta in Supreme Court jurisprudence, and it would seem apropos here. Not definitive, of course, but gives us an idea of what issues are involved. Here is the Wikipedia (I know, I know) page on it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_deism
     
  18. haleym

    haleym Member

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    It is unfair to generalize religious groups, no matter who they are or what they believe in. To say that "so help me God" should be removed from the honor oath because you came into contact with a Christian who offended you once doesn't make much sense.
    There isn't discrimination here based on religion. If there is... I've never seen it. If I do, I would speak up- regardless of whether or not the person being harrassed has the same beliefs (or lack there of) as me.
    also, navyhoops- there is no offense intended by that statement. it's just a common phrase, not my own words by any means. I guess this topic is more sensitive than i had realized.
    Like I said, this article might as well be thrown in the garbage. It's just meant to make people angry. It's better just to end the discussion here, because it isn't heading in a good direction, unsurprisingly. :rolleyes:
     
  19. BlahuKahuna

    BlahuKahuna Member

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    Unfortunately, religious discrimination does exist here. I would say that things like invocations, religious themed phrasing in oaths, etc etc, are not a big part of the real problem here-although they can certainly create issues when members of the chain of command don't understand appropriate separation of the religion in official communication.
     
  20. haleym

    haleym Member

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    Maybe I'm just in a good squad- couldn't quite say. All I know is that it is something I would never tolerate and can't imagine any good officers coming out of such behavior. Hopefully those folks are weeded out. In my opinion, it is on par with honor violations.
    Edit: As is any discrimination, for that matter.
     

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