AFROTC at Elite Institution

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by mil.intel, Jan 9, 2016.

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  1. mil.intel

    mil.intel Member

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    Hello,

    I've been lurking on this forum for a while, but decided that it was time to make an account.

    Currently, I am a freshman at a top 10 ranked college according to the US News. My brief profile: ECE/CS double, minority, 35 ACT, finished with a 3.0 first semester. I am registered to start AFROTC starting this Spring semester, after careful and thoughtful deliberations with myself, the cadre, and the current POCs.

    My primary question is - does college ranking, impartial to the detachment rankings, affect EA? Also, would I have to take the AFOQT in lieu of my ACT score?

    In addition, if you are a veteran or a current POC, alum etc, any advice to a freshman who is about to start AFROTC?

    Thank you!
     
  2. Vretro

    Vretro Member

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    No. Doesn't matter if you're at a 2 yr JC/CC transferring to a 4 yr, or an Ivy League.

    For the EA board, you're just a number. They don't even know your name. They take into account GPA, physical fitness assessment (1.5 mi, push-ups/sit-ups in a min, body circumference), AFOQT (which answers your follow on question), & commanders ranking (you are racked & stacked amongst your class). Specific weights are assigned to each. I don't remember them, but CC ranking is the highest at ~40% (someone else can confirm the weights).

    AFOQT can only be taken twice with a 180 day period in between sessions. They take the most recent scores, not the best of each session. Doesn't matter if you're an awesome test taker, you need to study to get used to the time limit. I.e. 25 questions in 17 mins, etc.
    baron's on Amazon has a good study book. I can also zap you two PDF AFOQT practice exams with answers.

    Advice would be to learn time management as best as you can for starters, & bc you're starting in spring, you are already behind your class- so soak up as much as you can to catch up. Early morning PTs, extra hours after LLAB for training with fellow GMC- you'll notice you'll start putting a lot of your free hours into ROTC. Hence where the time management comes in... GPA is the easiest & first thing to 'fall', which is why they stress academics first. If you have fellow ROTC cadets in your major, that's another easy outlet for studying. If you haven't started class yet (still on break I'm assuming), it'd behoove you to start working out, at least running & knocking out push-ups. (Advise hundredpushups.com for training to max this on your test). Absorb what you can, be a team player, look for ways to help out your peers. Don't be the wall flower!

    If you're not having fun, you are doing it wrong!
     
  3. Oldsalt

    Oldsalt Member

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    Vretro,
    I disagree. Elite school (HYPSM) cadets and midshipmen are treated differently during the branching/EA/service selection process. I have examples from all services.
    They are just "numbers" but some numbers are greater than others. It is an informal process that happens outside normal channels.
    I believe Second Tier (The next 20) are sometimes given consideration. Just don't have many direct examples, so not sure if they are special or anecdotal.
    OS
     
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  4. Vretro

    Vretro Member

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    No... I don't believe so. They assume you attend a school that challenges you at your level. Again, it's just numbers of AFOQT, GPA, fitness, etc..you are racked & stacked nationally amongst your peers. Doesn't matter whether you're at Harvard or a state school. This is what was told to us very early on from our cadre, & GB recruiters.
     
  5. Zero

    Zero Member

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    If they took schools into account there would be a ranking passed around by now, or how they ranked schools. Additionally if that were the case afrotc wouldn't set up cadets for failure by having detachments at schools viewed lesser than others. Would make no sense.
     
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  6. Oldsalt

    Oldsalt Member

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    Vretro,
    There are exceptions to every rule. The military is full of them. I can't give examples without identifying cadets. The pool is very small. We will just have to disagree. No harm, no foul.
    OS
     
  7. Stevenson

    Stevenson Member

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    School doesn't affect EA except perhaps those in Ivy already have higher test scores. They use AFOQT or SAT equivalent so if you passed AFOQT but it's still lower than your ACT, they will use the ACT, thus benefitting those in the higher tier colleges.

    In the end, it in a way balances it out because if school did play a part in rankings, there would be less people competing at lower tier colleges. Btw, I'm at a state school, not academically as high but we still had really high SFT selection rates.

    Also, spring is a little tough if you aren't already in shape and make sure you maintain a 3.0+ GPA. That double major might be a lot but doable, 5 years of course. I'd say good luck and just try your best to get involved.

    I think our dear PIMA might have more information.
     
  8. Non Ducor Duco

    Non Ducor Duco I am not led, I lead

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    OldSalt,

    That may be the case for other branches, but for AFROTC school plays no part just like scholarship plays no part. You are just a number. It sucks for cadets at harder schools where maintaining a good gpa is more difficult. The EA board also doesn't take 2nd majors or minors into account, just whatever your primary major is. I have a double major too and was told the boards wouldn't see that. The only extra thing the OP has going for him is having a STEM major, techies get an extra boost at the boards.
     
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  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Overall, I am with the others. The school does not matter in a way. It is an algorithm they use....pure and simple.

    I agree with Stevenson theoretically, by attending a college with a higher academic profile than it usually gives them an edge from the test taking factor...i.e. ACT/SAT. That will than parlay into their WCS for selection.
    ~ I agree the AFOQT is a test you should study for, especially if that high ACT/SAT score was not best sitting, but superscore.

    The other thing is the CoC ranking is part of the algorithm and my assumption is am Ivy league has a small unit than the chances of their ranking can be better than a different det. with a lot of candidates due to how they do the RSS.

    mil.intel,
    The avg cgpa for tech major is 3.0/3.1 so you are good there. If your a strong test taker and that ACT was best sitting than you should be fine from that perspective too.

    Every year the system gets tweaked. So be prepared that maybe next year they will say that they will not take whichever is better (AFOQT or ACT).

    The best advice I would give is talked to the CoC about the% that got an EA slot last year, and watch the numbers (cgpa, AFOQT).
     
  10. bman

    bman Member

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    "My primary question is - does college ranking, impartial to the detachment rankings, affect EA?"

    Agree with Old Salt. While the military has rules, they also realize that an engineering degree from MIT with a 3.5 is not the same as an engineering degree with a 3.5 from most other schools. In NROTC, if you want to do a master's straight out of college, MIT grads will get the preference. While this only applies to a few select schools, for those few schools I do believe it makes a difference.
     
  11. Zero

    Zero Member

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    It goes by gpa, It would completely allow the board to play favorites, again something that would come out over time. A student chooses his college, just because you are going to MIT does not mean you are smarter or more valuable than a cadet who chose to go to another school. In some cases this may be true, but not always. You would be able to see gpa skews both in EA and rated results if that were really the case. Another example is det rankings, someone has to be last even at mit they don't get bonus points, they still receive crap for points just like another guy from any other college. Even grounds, in the end that's nothing but theory and guessing, zero proof of it ever happening.
     
  12. Blessedmom

    Blessedmom Member

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    Hi is it possible to be on ROTC scholarship and Division 3 swimmer at schools like CMU Emory MIT Caltech etc or other elite schools (rigorous academic??). Is ROTC D3 athlete & class all manageable or too much??
     
  13. Oldsalt

    Oldsalt Member

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    I am breaking a personal rule, and disagreeing with Pima on an AF issue.

    Let's take a look at this from another perspective. If you believe that someone's father, who is a four star, has no influence on their selection, then we will never agree.
    There are exceptions to "shall's."
    If you understand that statement I'm sure you agree with me.
    If you don't understand it, you haven't been in the room when decisions are made.
    If you've followed these boards, you have seen folks that should have been slam dunks for scholarships that didn't get one and others that left you scratching your head.
    The military has quotas. They have them for race, gender, and assume if they don't by now they will have them for sexual preference.
    They also have silent quotas. Graduating from an elite is one of them.

    When I mention elites, I refer to HYPSM. Those units have the ability to change a type 7 to a type 1. The AF is competing with the Army and Navy at those schools. Most 18 yr olds can't see past the 10k a year delta in tuition costs. So the AF will change, when available (no examples of it not being available) to a Type 1 to level the playing field.
    Another example of separate treatment.
    JMHO based on what I have witnessed.
    OS
     
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  14. mil.intel

    mil.intel Member

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    Thanks all!

    I've asked my cadre, and he informed that all cadets have successfully made to EA, with only exceptions due to personal choices made to drop out of the ROTC track. As for the scholarship, he has also informed me that some scholarship funds have become available and asked if my grades are supportive.

    While I did not directly as him about the effect of college ranking on EA, the information above was a substantial indicator of the probability of my personal EA, given I fulfill all the requirements. More than anything, time management and physical fitness would be my two biggest hurdles I need to overcome this semester with all the school work.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Oldsalt,

    I def. agree with you that there are always an exception to the rule. Actually, RAND did a study 10-15 years ago, heck maybe it was 20 years ago on how nepotism was alive and well in the military.

    Just for some clarification. regarding the whole type 1,2 and 7 issue.
    1. AFROTC DOES NOT tie the cadet to the school, unlike A/NROTC.
    ~ The recipient is free to take it to any college they want that accepts the AFROTC scholarship. No asking from HQ AFROTC for it to be transferred to another college come April. You just send in the paperwork and say I will be matriculating to XYZ college come the fall.
    ~ Thus, they are not fighting like A/NROTC because they cannot determine anything from the count when they drop the scholarships.

    2. The only way as far as I know that a unit, any unit, not just HYSSPM, but all colleges can convert a type 7 to a type 1 comes down to 2 things.
    ~ The unit can offer a Command Scholarship. This will force the candidate to remove their name from the national (HSSP) board. It will be a Type 1. The unit has a limited pot of money to offer that scholarship (more like how A/NROTC operates). If you review all of the old threads you will see that most candidates offered this option are given less than a week to accept.
    ~ The college will charge instate or private costs for IN state attendance. In that case the Type 7 is a Type 1 according to HQ AFROTC.
    ~~ IE you are a NC resident with a Type 7. but want to go to TAMU. TAMU gives students that join the Corps a 1K scholarship. That 1K scholarship means you now will be charged IS costs. Thus, that NC resident can take the Type 7 and use it day one instead of converting it to a type 2.

    3. Type 2 scholarships are also unique and how it can be a factor.
    ~ Type 2 means that they will pay up to 18K in tuition and you can use merit or your own money to make up the difference.
    ~~ At some schools ROTC sits on the admission boards. They have their own pull within the system.
    ~ If offered a type 7 4 yr the recipient can convert it to a 3 yr type 2.

    Do I agree with you that there are exceptions to the rule? Heck Yes, but not to the point that I think you think. AFROTC is different from minute 1 when you look at the application process.
    ~ Best sitting. None of that I take the ACT 69 times until I get to 35 superscore. A/NROTC use superscore.
    ~ AFROTC does not look at any EC or course curriculum for their SR yr. It ends the last day of their Junior yr. The only thing they take into account senior yr is their new BEST sitting ACT/SAT.
    ~ Of course, again they don't tie the candidate to the school like the sister ROTC systems.

    I get what you are stating, but I would also state that there are just as many smart kids that do not go to HYSPM because in the end of the day they don't want to accept their FA package.
    ~ IE, take on student loans, do work study, etc. My DS had merit packages (besides the AFROTC scholarship) that ranged from 8K to 100K. It became part of the equation when the decision of matriculation occurred.

    I also think that this all moot for the OP or any cadet with high ACT/AFOQT scores, and especially for any AFROTC scholarship cadet. The reason I say this is because the majority of them are also on merit at their college. AFROTC requires a min. of 2.5, but most colleges require a min of at least 3.0, but probably more likely 3.2. If that is the case, than between the high ACT/AFOQT score and their cgpa being above 3.0 as a tech major, they are already in very strong standing from the % aspect for the WCS EA board.

    Finally, as I stated before the RSS is part of the equation, and believe it or not attending a small unit can be a bonus because of the mathematical algorithm they use for the standing. I would think HYPPSM, all attend smaller units than compared to ERAU, TAMU, VT, Notre Dame, etc. Thus, it helps them in that aspect too. Add all of the factors than they do have an edge, but not in the way you think. IOWS because they attend an elite college.

    OBTW, it appears AFROTC has their numbers back under control. 85-95% of candidates for SFT are selected. This again is really a moot discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    mil,

    FYI, I do not know if you are back at school yet, but my suggestion is to start working out immediately. This will be the 1st impression within your unit. It will be part of your score for EA next year. You want to be no lower than 96 to feel safe.
    ~ Run in the rain, the freezing cold, the stifling heat. Run when you are tired. Run, run, run.
    ~~ The way they did it at our DSs unit was the PT instructors (cadets) would split up with them being either in the front or the very back of the pack as pacers. The cadet in the back would shout out the cadets last name for everyone to hear if they were the slowest runner. You want to be at a 7 -7:15 min mile at the very least.

    As a new cadet, expect not to have a position this semester within the unit. If you are given one it will not be anything insane that will take away from time management. However, as you go up the ranks in the unit, they will hit you with positions that will be a factor from a time management aspect.
    ~ CFC (Cadet Flight Commander) will require you to write reports and attend meetings.
    ~ If you are doing xtown (not host college) than you will need to get up earlier to do PT to travel to that school.

    I do not know the unit, but great dets. also have what is called GMC night. Take advantage of this. GMC night is held weekly at the det. They order in pizza, wings, whatever, play foosball, crud, Xbox, PS games, etc. It is meant to bond your unit early on . GMC is for AS100/200s.

    I would also look into what military fraternities they have. Arnie Air Society, Silver Wings, Honor Guard, and Angel Flight. This opens you up to socializing outside of ROTC with the cadets that are also 300/400s. Time mgmt will be an issue because you do pledge to that organization. Those 300/400s maybe your CWC, CVWC, CFC.
    ~ IOWS, they can mentor you along the way.
    ~ Every unit is different when it comes to these organizations. For example, at my DSs unit, Arnie Air was filled with cadets that wanted to go rated, regardless of their intended major. Silver wings were engineering majors.

    Volunteer for everything and anything you can...as long as it does not impact your grades. You don't want to be a name with no face from the CoCs aspect. You want them to know your name and your face.
    ~ OBTW, attending GMC nights or joining the military fraternities will have a PMS instructor attached to those things as their go to (POC=Point of Contact). This will also give you more face time for them to see you outside of LLAB or PT.

    I hope this helps you with some insight on all of the options that are available to you as an AFROTC cadet.

    Good luck.

    PS.During your spring and summer breaks, study the AFOQT. If you get bitten by the flying bug, than try to get some flight hours in, because that will be part of your score for the rated board during your AS300 yr (junior). Even as little as 20 hrs will bump up your score.
     
  17. derek44

    derek44 Member

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    There is some misinformation in this thread, for the EA packet your SAT/ACT and AFOQT are converted into an SAT-Equivalency score, and that which is higher is submitted to the EA board. So if you just pass the AFOQT, but your ACT SAT-E is higher, then that is what gets submitted.

    EA boards are college blind. The only things that count are objective factors. Det CC ranking (40%), FA (10%), GPA (25%), and SAT-E (25%).
     
  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Derek,

    I think all of the AFROTC cadets//posters have stated the exact thing you have stated, thus no misinformation.
    ~ Caveat: ME.

    No offense, but I have been around here long enough to see the SAT/ACT/AFOQT change ...alot!
    2010 SFT/EA candidates took the AFOQT as AS100s.
    ~ They were able to take it 2x by their board. ACT/SAT was not placed into the equation. The slate was wiped clean once in AFROTC.
    2012 SFT/EA candidates were not mandated to take the AFOQT as AS100s, thus if taking as a 200, they usually could only get one in before the board.
    2015 SFT/EA candidates now again take the AFOQT earlier. If you fail the AFOQT, but get an SFT slot you still cannot attend until you pass the AFOQT, thus making the SAT/ACT score nothing more than holding a spot.

    Hence, it is tweaked constantly, and for mil.intel as a 100, nobody knows what they will do next yr when he/she is up for the SFT/EA board. Three different conditions placed within 5 years.

    I would also say that if mil.intel is going non-rated the true importance for them, assuming they are a strong test taker is that the AFOQT will be used for their AFSC later on in their AFROTC career. The SAT Equivalent will not be a game player. They have 2 shots at the AFOQT and taking it a second time may risk their score. IE It is not best sitting. It is last sitting.
    ~ Cadets going rated will have the TBAS score for their board.
     
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  19. Non Ducor Duco

    Non Ducor Duco I am not led, I lead

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    OldSalt,

    Everything you've mentioned can come into play later down the line with job selection, etc. there's no denying that. But as others have said, for the EA board specifically what college you go to is not a factor.
     
  20. mil.intel

    mil.intel Member

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    Hi all,

    Thanks for everyone for replies!

    A quick update: It has been a fantastic past few weeks since school started with my AFROTC detachment. My cadre and the current POCs are extremely helpful and friendly, as well as the current GMCs, who give me advice and tips for scheduling, marching, opportunities etc.
    I am getting used to twice-a-week AM PTs, and just passed my first PFA with the score of 93.3 (missed one bracket up by 1 second run-time) - I can only get better from this point on. What Pima said about last-place-shaming culture apparently does not exist here.

    The cadre, as far as I can tell, is working extremely hard for a very eventful semester. We will be having a high-ranking senior DV within the next couple of weeks, and a two-day trip to the DC area this month (Pentagon etc), a visit to the regional AFB, with the opportunity to participate in the a drill that involves riding the KC-135 with the current airmen just this month.

    Lastly, I am pleased to say that I have been nominated for the Commander's Scholarship, which my cadre briefly mentioned of. Does anyone have any information regarding this particular scholarship?

    Thanks again to everyone who gave me helpful insights!
     

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