afrotc freeze?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by peskydad, Dec 2, 2010.

  1. peskydad

    peskydad New Member

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    I have a son who is currently an afrotc cadet. He was told that scholarships (in college) are currently frozen. Can anyone tell me why and how long this might go on? Thanks
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am assuming you do not mean cadets already contracted.

    The AF last yr canceled OCS. The next step would be to not give in school scholarships since they are in a yr group where force re-structuring is occurring. This is also on top of the RIF that will be occurring.

    This occurs when the company grade (O1-O3) yr group is too big in size from a ratio standpoint to the field grad (O4-O6). It traditionally happens in a poor economic situation since they expect a certain amount of members to leave as soon as their committment is up, they have new members coming down the pipeline to keep the numbers in balance. When the economy goes upside down, these members do not leave and that means they have a glut. The easiest way to do this is to slow down the pipeline. Canceling OCS and reducing ROTC contracted cadets is the easiest way. They also reduce cadets by not meeting their gpa requirements.

    Nobody here is with MPC manpower and thus, they can't tell you how long it will remain this way.

    My best guesstimate would be yrs purely based on the economic outlook. What you will see is that in a few yrs they will be hitting field grade with low promotion rates because once they have company grade in line, than they will be considered top heavy with field, so they will speed up the promotion board for O4 while they reduce the rate of promotions. Back in 93, the O4 board met 2x in 1 yr with a 60-65% promotion rate. Get passed over 2x for O4 and they will separate you within 1 yr and they do not owe you any bennies.

    I have joked for yrs that the AF is 2 things:
    1. Bulimic ---they gorge themselves, and realize they ate too much, so they than purge. Right now they are purging. A few yrs from now, they will say that they are too thin so they will begin he process over again

    2. Timing --- you could be the best pilot in the world, but if you enter UPT as the pipeline is shutting down, you will not get to choose as much as you could compared to other yrs.

    Right now UPT is also purging. Yrs ago because they didn't have enough in the pipeline they would wash you back, now, it is a buh-bye situation because they have a backlog.

    When AFA grads are getting UPT report dates of 9-10 months after graduation that means there is a slow down.

    UPSHOT...in a few yrs when airlines start hiring again, the AF will be scrambling for pilots and you can apply for UPT than even if you are not in the flying world.

    The same is true if you actually come in one of these smaller commision yrs, because as time goes by than your promotion rates will go up. I remember a few yrs after Bullet's O4 yr group, the promotion rate hit all time high rates of 85%. Again, that is the system a set ratio of Flag to Field to Company.

    If he is already contracted and his gpa is in order, he should be fine.
     
  3. peskydad

    peskydad New Member

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    He is a frehman not cotracted. his gpa is over 3.5, he recieved an award from rotc (one given out per semester) and recieved the highest pt score in the wing as a freshman. he is really working hard for this I would hate to see him left out. Thanks for the reply.
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Is he not contracted because of the Type of scholarship he selected? Or is he not contracted because he never applied for a scholarship with the intention he would apply in college after trying out ROTC?

    It makes a difference, because if the AF does freeze scholarships, not having one already will place him at the bottom of the pile from a money issue.

    Additionally, what is his major? Technical always has the edge on where the AF is going to spend their money. There are some non-techs, like majoring in Arabaic or Chinese that also get an edge.

    Who told him they were frozen? Det Commander?
     
  5. CadetMom777

    CadetMom777 Member

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    My son attends a Senior Military College. He said some of the Air Force cadets this year who were on scholarship had their scholarships nullified even though they still met the criteria for maintaining them and they would not be eligible to contract. They have no obligation to repay them since it was the Air Force's decision. It was a real shocker being that a Senior Military College has the guarantee of active duty upon commissioning. They thought they were safe from the RIF. One minute you've got your education paid for and a job waiting for you after graduation, the next...
     
  6. dadkone

    dadkone Member

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    What is the Status?

    During the period the AFA grad is awaiting a UPT report date, is he/she on active duty at an AFB with a duty assignment?
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Yes, they will go AD, but it doesn't mean they will be assigned to the base that they will go to UPT for. At SJAFB, every yr there were a couple of them floating around. SJAFB is not a UPT base. I am not sure if they still call it this, but it use to be called casual status. In other words, you are AD and assigned to a base/squadron, but really have no true job, because they are just waiting for you to go to UPT. It is a limited time. Many AFA grads will take their leave after graduation, and report in July, from there they will PCS to this base until they get their report no later date (RNLD). In fighter squadrons, their job is traditionally something like Snack-O and answering the duty desk phones. The reason why for this is because the operational FNGs get the other op jobs like scheduling, life support and Weapons (the plum job as an 02).

    Picking up from CadetMom.

    LY at our DS's det., 90 days out they approached a cadet and told him, the fat lady sang and he would not be commissioned.

    They also approached a few cadets this fall and relieved them of their contract because these cadets did not get selected for summer training last yr.

    It happens.

    I don't want people panicking and thinking the worst. A lot has to do with a lot of things. Career field is one of them. GPA is another. Det ranking is still another.

    Look at this time as your time to prove yourself to the AF. It is identical to applying for the scholarship. You want the strongest resume possible. That means, be active in your det. You don't want the commander who writes your review turn to the det cadet commander and ask him to remind him who this cadet it. You want them to know you.

    That means if you have the opportunity to volunteer...VOLUNTEER

    That means you need the best gpa possible, a 3.6+ is what you need to shoot for. That gpa is a part of your chances for getting your desired AFSCE because you will go up NATIONALLY.

    That means get the best PFT score posible, because that is in the packet.

    Get the best AFOQT and TCBM (I think that is the acronym---C300 yr) scores

    If you have a military fraternity, join it. Not only will you make life long friends, but you also have that on your resume. Military fraternities mimic the dets, and have jobs which is another EC.

    You need to accept that it is not just lead lab on Thursday, if you want to get a UPT slot or even now just to get commissioned. It is the WHOLE PACKAGE.

    You also need to realize the det matters. I have given this example before. ERAU has the 2nd most pilot slots available after AFA. However, statistically, they have @60% whereas, VT has closer to 80%. ERAU is a very large det, but the AF doesn't want every UPT student from ROTC to come from ERAU, thus, they spread the wealth. VT cadets have an extra "golden egg" they have the Corp of Cadets, which is for every ROTC student regardless of the branch. That is a pretty EC if you are not only recognized by the det in a leadership position, but have been active in the CoC while majoring in engineering with even a 3.4 gpa.

    Again, the WHOLE package. They want the good student, but they also want the good officer. You need to find how to make it the perfect blend.

    As for the OP, the fact is if he is not contracted, and manpower has decided that at this time they have enough 13 grads, they do not need to contract him.

    He needs to contact his det commander and ask him if he will not be contracted as a C200. At that point, if he says, there will be no contract, he needs to ask him if he thinks if he stays in the AFROTC program not on scholarship there will be the chance he can still get commissioned when he graduates.

    I am on the fence here as a parent, because lately I have seen a ton of posters that were either AF or Navy and have now flipped over to the Army because of these issues. To me, I am than left with the question, will in 3 yrs the AF now scurry around to commission into the AF because they went bulimic? Do you play those odds? Can you afford to play those odds with the cost of college?

    Does he want to serve any branch, or just the AF? Depending on the outcome with the sit down, he can think about trying to go to another branch like the Army. However, than the question is what if everyone else in the position does the same thing, now putting them into the same equation at a later time frame?

    I am sorry, I gave you more to think about, but my opinion has always been it is best to think about every option, than to play ostrich in the sand.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  8. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    All excellent questions Pima. As a parent of one AFROTC scholarship student and another awaiting results of this years selection committees these questions are certainly something we have discussed/debated in our family. While I don't have a crystal ball, I like the promotion and job opportunities for those commissioning Air Force in 2014 & 2015. The tough part is going to be surviving until then.
     
  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    We have a 12, and from what I have comprehended the system has changed over the past yr or so.

    I am sure there have been points he has regretted that decision, especially when he came to understand summer field training was not a given, or the fact that he is now waiting a board for UPT.

    When he went through this process back in 08, scholarships were competitive, but even det commanders never had to tell a C400 3 months out the AF was releasing them. Back then everyone went to summer training.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Fast forward. Only 50-60% of the cadets at his det got summer field training as a C200.

    There are cadets that were in his det who didn't get summer training and switch branches. I am sure if they knew as SRs in hs that fact they would have never applied to AFROTC.

    Hindsight!

    I am sure some would have never taken the scholarship at all! There are some who took it for the $$$ and now they are SOL trying to figure out how to graduate without the scholarship.

    I agree I think 14/15 are fine. I believe this because the AF has closed OCS, and reduced AFROTC scholarships, which means they have a smaller pool. In essence, they are closing the pipeline flow.

    I don't think from a career perspective they are at the best. I think the 09-12 yr group will be the fast trackers. I say this, not because they are the smartest, but because the economy will turn, and these are the yr groups that were hit the hardest. That means when they can bolt at the earliest 13-16, the economy will be back up, and they will leave, thus, to keep the ratio of field to company in check they will need to keep these yr groups to stay.

    Fast forward again, 2010, people who were commissioned in 05 because of 9/11 can't find a job in the corporate world because of the economy are now staying, They are company grade, and now we have too many of them. They will not be up for O4 for several yrs. That means we are bulging at company grade. Too many company grade means the ratio is off and they need to slow the commissioning rate.

    Now, if the economy picks up in 13/14, that means the 9/10 class can leave at that point. Add in those who have stayed passed their initial, can leave too. Now when you get to the O4 board, the pool is even smaller, thus promotion rate is higher.

    The military is always impacted by the economy. There is an inverse relationship. Low unemployment = high separation. High unemployment = low separation. Right now the economy is in the drivers seat.
     
  10. peskydad

    peskydad New Member

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    Pima,
    He did not recieve a HS scholarship but wanted ROTC anyway so he joined hopeing he could compete for a scholarship. His major is chemistry/pre-med. His commander told him. Could it be because of no federal budget?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The federal budget regarding DoD is a player and not a player.

    The AF is going through force re-shaping the Army isn't. When the divvy up the money, they all get to work within their own constraints. Right now the Army is filled with a bucket of money for scholarships. the AF in comparison is holding a cup. The AF is reshaping.

    It is truly a supply and demand issue.

    The question still is what the commander stated.

    Did he state no way in Hades because the AF is freezing all 3 yr scholarships?

    Did he state he would support his application, but don't expect a positive result?

    Did he state there are scholarships, but because he is not technical as a pre-med he would not support him? Hint, would he support him as a chemical engineer?

    What exactly did the det commander say?

    FWIW the budget works Oct 1st to Sept 30th for the military. That means we are already in the 11 FY.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  12. peskydad

    peskydad New Member

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    Pima,
    Spoke to my boy today, the commander simply stated there was a freeze on. I called another detachment and got the same answer from a major there. He also stated they did'nt expect anything until next fall. By the way chemistry is a technical major although he is taking additional science classes for pre-med at this point the AF see's him as a chem major. Thanks
     
  13. -Bull-

    -Bull- Member

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    FWIW, AROTC LT's waiting for BOLC usually work at their former battalions doing different jobs or acting as gold bar recruiters. I'm sure it's somewhat similar for all branches.
     
  14. nick4060

    nick4060 Member

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    From what ive seen at my school, Navy has a similar deal. The AF does not. We simply get commissioned, and await active duty (without pay) until we report to our base for tech school/upt/asbc. Some guys go as long as six months between commissioning and active duty - so they have to end up getting temp jobs.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    One thing to realize for the AF is that the AFA grads will go casual, and be active duty while waiting for UPT.

    The AFROTC grads will not. As Nick stated they will be commissioned, BUT until they report to their 1st station they will not receive pay.

    Nick is correct, most of them do not do the Army or Navy plan. Traditionally if you have a UPT slot they like to drop you into the flying world, which means some type of flying squadron. Again, this is only for AFA grads, not ROTC. Most ROTC grads go off and live with the folks working a no nothing job, unless they have some connections. They do this because they are just buying time, so for many it is their "last summer job" while they wait to start their career. Bullet was a waiter/bartender for 9 months, another friend of his worked at his Dad's store.

    Additionally, this is where it becomes confusing. Their longetivity pay will be based on their commissioning date, but their DOR will be the difference between commission and report. For example, you get commissioned in May, report in March, your DOR will be October. (5 months between the two). Your flight pay will begin on your report date for UPT, which would mean March.

    All of that being said, when you go AD, as an O2, you will get 2 yr longetivity pay in May. Promoted to O1 in October. 2yr+ flight pay in March. The first few years it feels like Christmas every few months because those raises feel good.

    pesky, than what I would take away from those conversations is they have given out their pot of gold for 14 commissioning. Again, even though it is frozen now, it doesn't mean it will be in 4 yrs. If he really wants the AF, he can still get, it is just harder.

    I know that doesn't help, but that is a learning lesson for many posters who are contemplating whether or not to apply, AND when to apply. Apply at the earliest point because the money is limited, and traditionally it disappears quickly. Even in doubt, at least you have the back up in case you decide this is the route. If you do not apply, and believe you can do it next yr in college you may find yourself on the short end of the stick.

    I am not shocked by this because as it is well known the AF canceled OCS for FY10, and I believe it is canceled for FY 11 too. That means they shut down the pipeline. By doing RIFs besides the no OCS, and releasing ROTC cadets months before graduation, the last place they could go was no in college scholarships to get the numbers in line.

    I have been on this board for @ 3 yrs and I can tell you last yr was the 1st yr that I saw as many rejections as I did, and as many lower type scholarships as I have ever seen. Our DS, who had 1390 SAT, 33 or 34 ACT, 4.1 gpa, stated this fall that he felt if he was a 14 cadet, he would have not been offered a scholarship because that is how high some of the stats these kids have.

    I know 3 stories now from various people of ROTC applicants that got denied a scholarship, but got into the AFA. When the world goes this upside down you know something is a miss. Remember AFROTC traditionally has more applicants than AFA because AFA candidates will apply for an AFROTC scholarship as their plan B, however, not every AFROTC candidate will apply for the AFA.
     
  16. Marist College ROTC

    Marist College ROTC Member

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    Scholarship Standards

    I cannot confirm or deny the AFROTC standards that Pima spoke of. The AROTC standards, though undoubtedly higher this year than last, are not quite as high as 1390 SAT, 33 or 34 ACT, 4.1 GPA. We have offered scholarships this year to students with sub 1200 SATs or sub 3.2 GPAs.
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    You are not going to find those stats anywhere, remember AFROTC scholarships vary in types, plus they can take them to any college. That means a higher tier school might have higher scoring cadets when it comes to stats.

    My post was anecdotal from my son's school, and what he has seen come down the pike for C100's this yr. Another college might have higher stats and another might have lower. The college itself also is a player in the system. If the college's admission rate has decreases, pushing up the stds for admission, than it is easy to see how the cadets entering would have higher qualifications.

    That being stated, I have to say I agree with him just by reading some of the stats that I have read on this board.

    FWIW our DS was one of those lucky non-tech recipients. He is majoring in Govt., since they only award a small % to these cadets it is very competitive. Again, it goes back to type of scholarship and the college to make that determination of the stats within the det.

    The fact is the AFROTC scholarship has always been very competitive. Honestly, a sub 1200 SAT would not get you a full ride AFROTC even yrs ago. As I stated earlier it is important to realize that SA candidates will also apply for ROTC as their back up plan. The ROTC board is not going to know if you are also applying to the AFA. That means they have limited money and they will award to the highest candidate.

    Additionally, the AF is much, much smaller than the Army, thus, their pot is much smaller. You can't compare AROTC to AFROTC. They operate differently, and that starts even from the earliest point where AROTC requires a list of colleges, whereas, the AFROTC allows you to take it to a school that has AFROTC, no interaction between college and scholarship.

    Also, currently the AF has canceled OCS and now it appears it has canceled college scholarships for in college. The Army has yet to do this. Thus, for the AF the demand is surpassing the supply, and that will force the stat rate to increase. It is pure economics when it comes to the scholarship issue...too many candidates, not enough spots, and you will see more competition with higher stats.

    I am assuming when you say "we" you mean Marist. Again, the AFROTC scholarship decision has no connection to any college, it doesn't matter if you are going to Duke or Marist or ERAU. You need to score above that line and you get it, below and you don't. They don't care if the det (in your case BN) have 10% on scholarship or 100%. They take it from a centralized management position, and not a de-centralized management structure. In other words, we have 5K scholarships available, we take the top 5K applicants. In the Army, they say they have 5K, but than they spread the wealth to every BN, allotting X amt of that 5K to every university, and thus, the Army has given more control to the actual BN.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  18. agolson

    agolson Eagle43

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    Marist ROTC is discussing Army Rotc and Pima is discussing Air Force ROTC. Two different ROTC programs with different requirements.
     
  19. luckymacy

    luckymacy Member

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    Am I reading this right, kids in college now in their junior and/or senior years WITH scholarships or otherwise are in the POC are being release from their obligation and told they no longer have scholarships nor will they recieve commisions? Or are we talking about kids who are in ROTC without scholarships are being told they will not be able to get a 2 or 3 year scholarship to finish up their degree? If the latter, are they still being allowed to get a commision?
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    You were reading it correct. Currently because of AF re-shaping scholarship students even with their AFSC are being released. Upshot they do not have to pay back the scholarship.

    This is not the 1st time the AF has done this, they did it back in the early 90's.

    The cadet released out of our son's det ly was a scholarship recipient. He was informed in March that he would not receive his commission. He also has a friend who lost his scholarship with a 3.0 gpa in the technical field.

    He also has a roommate that is getting commissioned in a few weeks that was never a scholarship recipient, but than again, they are majoring in Chinese, and will be going to foreign language school.

    Supply and demand. Before you start flipping and worrying, for the majority there is no impact at all. Our DS's det is large, thus, the % is very small.

    The importance is for those on scholarship, those considering it to remember that just because you have one doesn't mean you are safe for the next 4 yrs. You need to use this time to build a resume, just like you did in hs for the scholarship.
     

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