AFROTC Scholarship chances?

Kingneptune117,

I think the point PIMA is making is that a Medical Disqualification will not only prevent you from receiving an AF Scholarship, it will prevent you from serving at all in the military.

If you are medically disqualified from the scholarship you can take the AF ROTC classes but you will not be able to be contracted....not sure if that's the right term for the AF, I come from the Army background.

If you join ROTC as a non scholarship cadet you will eventually need to be medically qualified, maybe things will change while you are at school and you will get that qualification but I doubt things will change in the medical regulations that soon. Without a Qualified status you will not be able to join the military.

I think this is what PIMA means about it being a Big Deal.

Are you applying for for the class of 2015, I mean are you a senior or Junior in high school.

The other issue you will have regarding the medical will be your history of ADD/Anxioty. You posted last April that you have been on medication treatment for the past 10 years and were planning to get off the meds this past summer. If you are a senior and have applied for the scholarship for the class of 2015 you will have your physical soon and won't have been a year yet that you have been off your meds. I think this could end up being a larger issue then your hand .

If you look at the Dodmerb page there is a Sticky Post that explains the waiver process very well. One of the paragraphs states that the granting of waivers can depend on the needs of the service, basiclly if the service is meeting it's current personell needs it is less likely that a waiver will be granted, if they are short of their needs they are more willing to give a waiver. As it stands now the AF is not hurting as far as personell goes, just look at those who are being removed from the program as late as their 4th year.

You posted your stats at the beginning of this thread and asked what you chances are. You need to look back at some of the posts over the year and look at the stats of those that were selected and those who were not, you will get a better idea of where you fit. My son's friend applied for the AF acholarship last year, he had a 3.7 u/w, 31 ACT, Top 15% in his class, Captain of 2 sports, Eagle scout and many other EC's. His friend did not receive the AF Scholarship, in the end he accepted the Army Scholarship. The AF is very competitive, be prepared for a plan B.

Sorry to be so blunt, just trying to give you an honest opinion. You sound like you have a lot of drive, it will serve you well in life, just don't be naive to the realities of the military, it is a whole different world.

Good Luck
 
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Well yes I realize all of that. I have been off the medication since last June.

I am a senior in high school. My point about the hand is that I can DEMONSTRATE, in person, that it will not be a problem for me. I can demonstrate through my current grades that being off the meds does not affect me mentally. I understand that they have to follow the book, but Mr. Mullen told me they consider if it is a developing condition and whether it will affect me in combat. Neither of my conditions will.

The only DQ I can think of for my hand is that they can say I wouldnt be able to wear a glove properly. Sure it will be lose, but that does not affect my dexterity.

Anybody else have any input on whether or not it is a good idea to tell the interviewer straight up about any personal medical conditions, even if he/she normallly wouldnt notice them?
 
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King,


Jcleppe was exactly correct on what I was implying/stating when it came to your issue.

DodMerb is not a small deal, it is a big deal and has been the reason many never get the opportunity to serve. The AF could love you and want you, but medically they can't take you.

It is also true about waivers, it is not a guarantee, when they need people they give them out like cany, when they don't than it is an uphill battle. Right now the AF is going through force re-shaping...read the threads of how many kids that are already in AFROTC currently and are afraid of how this is going to impact them. They are in the system.


Now,
Here's the deal about the glove issue regarding flying. It is a big deal about it being lose and this is why:

For ejection seat aircraft the number one danger for them is not hitting the canopy it is losing their hand as they pull the handle.

Fliers are taught minute one to remove their wedding rings because it has been known to cause damage to their hands.

A loose glove will do the same as a wedding ring. Those gloves are not issued to keep your hands warm, they are flame retardent and issued to save your hands in case of something bad. The brown leather ones they issue are to keep them warm.

Now, that is not to say you can't go UPT, but they may say you must go non-ejection seat route due to your hand.

Here's the problem in that scenario, the UPT pipeline is clogged currently so it means they have a choice of sending someone to UPT that can only fly non-ejection or someone that can fly any airframe. 1 slot, 2 candidates who do they choose?

Additionally, it is also possible to get a waiver, but not be pilot qualified. You need to also accept that might occur.

I know I keep sounding like a nay sayer, I am sorry I sound that way, but that is why I keep stressing to you that get your medical records in order now, so you can turn to me and make me ate last word I ever wrote. And you can be the guy who says don't let them tell you it can't, because I am here to prove it.

You need to understand how fast things go after that DodMerb, and if you need to get a waiver than you need to know how slow it goes when you weren't prepared for the waiver route. They will send you to their guy, not your doc. The more documentation you have the easier it will be, just showing your dexterity might not be enough.

Go and ask MullenLE if the medication you were on for 10 yrs is a dq. They do DQ for those things, but I believe it is a time frame issue of being off it and easily waiverable.

DodMerb physical is not like a sports physical they check you out from the top of your cranium to your toes and everywhere in between...yes, everywhere! You also go to their doc, not yours and right there you hand over your patient info, thus, if you have had issues you must acknowledge it and if you don't bring your records with you than the doc will make a determination without them and that can bring on the dq just as fast.

OBTW, if you have played sports and this becomes a topic with the interviewer just stress how you played sports and it never caused any issues. This will also give them an ease in their mind that it really isn't a medical issue that can't be waived.

That is what you want to do right now if it is discussed at the interview. You want to make them realize that you have been told by Mullen that it is not an issue at this time, and as you have been athletic and did the PFA which includes push ups and pull ups it is not a physical issue either.
 
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Pima said:
King,


Jcleppe was exactly correct on what I was implying/stating when it came to your issue.

DodMerb is not a small deal, it is a big deal and has been the reason many never get the opportunity to serve. The AF could love you and want you, but medically they can't take you.

It is also true about waivers, it is not a guarantee, when they need people they give them out like cany, when they don't than it is an uphill battle. Right now the AF is going through force re-shaping...read the threads of how many kids that are already in AFROTC currently and are afraid of how this is going to impact them. They are in the system.


Now,
Here's the deal about the glove issue regarding flying. It is a big deal about it being lose and this is why:

For ejection seat aircraft the number one danger for them is not hitting the canopy it is losing their hand as they pull the handle.

Fliers are taught minute one to remove their wedding rings because it has been known to cause damage to their hands.

A loose glove will do the same as a wedding ring. Those gloves are not issued to keep your hands warm, they are flame retardent and issued to save your hands in case of something bad. The brown leather ones they issue are to keep them warm.

Now, that is not to say you can't go UPT, but they may say you must go non-ejection seat route due to your hand.

Here's the problem in that scenario, the UPT pipeline is clogged currently so it means they have a choice of sending someone to UPT that can only fly non-ejection or someone that can fly any airframe. 1 slot, 2 candidates who do they choose?

Additionally, it is also possible to get a waiver, but not be pilot qualified. You need to also accept that might occur.

I know I keep sounding like a nay sayer, I am sorry I sound that way, but that is why I keep stressing to you that get your medical records in order now, so you can turn to me and make me ate last word I ever wrote. And you can be the guy who says don't let them tell you it can't, because I am here to prove it.

You need to understand how fast things go after that DodMerb, and if you need to get a waiver than you need to know how slow it goes when you weren't prepared for the waiver route. They will send you to their guy, not your doc. The more documentation you have the easier it will be, just showing your dexterity might not be enough.

Go and ask MullenLE if the medication you were on for 10 yrs is a dq. They do DQ for those things, but I believe it is a time frame issue of being off it and easily waiverable.

DodMerb physical is not like a sports physical they check you out from the top of your cranium to your toes and everywhere in between...yes, everywhere! You also go to their doc, not yours and right there you hand over your patient info, thus, if you have had issues you must acknowledge it and if you don't bring your records with you than the doc will make a determination without them and that can bring on the dq just as fast.

OBTW, if you have played sports and this becomes a topic with the interviewer just stress how you played sports and it never caused any issues. This will also give them an ease in their mind that it really isn't a medical issue that can't be waived.

That is what you want to do right now if it is discussed at the interview. You want to make them realize that you have been told by Mullen that it is not an issue at this time, and as you have been athletic and did the PFA which includes push ups and pull ups it is not a physical issue either.
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Yes I understand exactly what you are saying. I realize the glove thing may be a problem but I have talked to several officers in the air force and they all told me I could just grab a smaller glove. That is of course not to say I wont be DQ'ed because of it. There is always a chance. As far as the medical records, I have all the records for my hand and I still have to get the ones for my medication.

I asked mr. mullen about it, and he simply told me, as far as the medication goes, it all depends on my grades. This is all definetly been very stressful because, for me, it is a guessing game.

I played tennis with NO problem freshman year, and since then I have been working in grocery stores as a grocer (stock, life boxes, open things, etc...)

Two guys in grocery have gotten kicked out for being to slow so far. Neither of them had my condition. This job is ALL about using your hands too. So I think that helps my case. Again, I can physically demonstrate to the doc. I hope I do get to prove you wrong though.

I talked to a flight doc yesterday who does FC1's, and although he does not know much about the DODmerb, he says I should be ok, because in his opinion, he thinks I would be qualified for the FC1. He says that the FC1 is more intense than the dodmerb. I really dont know what will happen. Thanks for all the help though.
 
Did you ask the flight doc to look up in his book your actual condition. Trust me flight docs have a book, because I know many yrs back when one of our children had an issue, I turned to the flt doc and said "just tell me can they be in the AF?" The reason why, is because as a parent if it was NO, than I was going to worry.

He looked it up an said, YEP, good to go with this condition.

They also use that book because if something goes bad as an AD member that they resource it to see if they need to go to a medical board.

You are correct, you can grab a smaller glove. Again, I am not trying to be the naysayer, but this is an internet forum, nobody here knows the level of dexterity or the true level other than whatever you choose to share.

Get the medication ones in hand ASAP, because in 2 weeks from now you could be at a DodMerb physical.

The plus side for you is that obviously you must be an ADAF dep child of a flier...even retirees don't see flight docs, and def. not AD if they are not a flier. You can ask DodMerb to let you get that physical on base, thus, you are already one step ahead.

Two, since this flight doc said he would not dq for his purposes, but again his report will be sent to DodMerb and they are the final answer, yet if he writes in the report that you are PPQ than that can potentially help ~~~ still DodMerb holds the reigns.

I would discuss this with the flt doc., and ask him if he wouldn't mind as your doc that if you get DQ to talk to DodMerb on your behalf if a waiver becomes an issue.

For those that have never been associated with flight docs, they are the Marcus Welby's of the AF. They are assigned only to fliers and their families. You can call them anytime and they will be there for you. Our DD got bit by a copperhead snake at night(3 bites and she needed 5 vials of anti venom), rushed to the ER of the town hospital and the flight doc found out before the ambulance arrived at the hospital; he was on the phone with Bullet as the ambulance was pulling up, telling him what to demand from the ER staff. It was a flight doc that delivered chicken pox meds to me at my home...I was 33 yo and Bullet was deployed to SKore. They are the only reason to me to ever be a flier!

He can't save you, but he can be your last line of defense.

Now that stated please tell me you don't have vision problems or hearing problems, because with every issue that can be a DQ means you will need more evaluations.

Last I remembered you had a 28 ACT composite, but never gave the break down of the CR and M. You also stated U of IA was your intended university, but I don't recall your major. Are you a match for them?

SO let's drop the medical issue and start anew with what was each part of that ACT? Was it 28 for both, or did you get a 24 on CR, and a 32 M. or a 26 M and 30 CR? This will play into the game. Also is this your superscore? Or did you believe they take the best composite, because that isn't what they do. They take the best of each sub section and go from there.

I.E 26 CR on 1st 28 on 2nd...28 is the score
30 M on 1st and 28 on 2nd...30 is the score

Thus, the composite actually changes...and yes, everyone I know there are 4 parts, just trying to not muddy the waters too much.
 
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sounds good I will get those files together :)

also, he cited the code in his FC1 book that says I would be DQ'ed, but he said I should be able to easily obtain a waiver. Sorry for not stating that the first time.

My composite was a 28 on my act. My math score was a 25 (although on my first act, I got a 27 composite, with a 27 math. This was the only score I did better on my first act than on my second, so according to you, they would scratch the 25 math score and use my 27 math score.) My english score was a 32. my reading score was a 30. my science was a 26.

I got accepted to University of Iowa for Mechanical Engineering.

My combined english/writing was a 27.

Not sure what those abbreviations stand for, sorry.
 
Yes that is how they see it and now if you add up the superscores of each, you actually would be a composite of 29 not 28. 115 divided by 4 = 28.75...they round, so in your case that is rounded up to 29.

From there they may convert the ACT score over to their SAT equivalent...they do this so every candidate is on the same footing...just like when they re-weight the gpas.

For you the ACT of 29 is in a range of 1290-1320. I do not know if they convert the composite or each section.

As far as waivers go as Jcleppe and I have stated, take that one day at a time because the flt doc does not work with DodMerb, it needs to be accepted that they are the final voice. Like I said, contact him and see as a flt doc IF you need the waiver that he will support you.

I don't know if they still do this since we went through it 3 1/2 yrs ago, but our flt doc wrote in his notes that DodMerb got for the physical clear for AD and PPQ (Potential Pilot Qual). I also don't know if it carried any weight with DodMerb, but I am sure it didn't hurt to have a USAF flight doc write that on a military physical evaluation!

OBTW our DS didn't get a dq, but he had to go back to be taped because according to them he was too thin for the regs...he is 5'9 and 142 lbs. That is why I state you'd be amazed on how nit picky they get when it comes to their medical regs.
 
I asked him he said that it would not make one bit of difference whether or not he "recommended me".

Is that a good ACT score? I think it is one above the average?
 
It is not asking for a recommendation, you are asking if they DQ you that he would discuss this on your behalf with DodMerb regarding his medical expertise.

Recommending is not what flight docs do, you want him to vouch for you from a medical position that he does not see any reason why it should be an issue for the AF regarding the DQ.

Now maybe he is stating that as an AF doc he is going to acknowledge this on your DodMerb and will not make a recommendation regarding the waiver. In other words he will not get involved in the decision process.

It is hard to read what you are stating because this is an internet forum, thus, it is best to cover every aspect.

You have stated that the scholarship will not stop you regarding the AF, so just move on from there.

If I was being brutally honest, my concern for you would not be the scholarship, but the fact that you are going engineering and a 27 M seems to be on the low end of the scale for engineering along with a 26 S. The reason engineering has a 30%+ wash out rate is because many kids do not have the mathematical and scientific foundation needed to succeed as freshman. As an engineering major you should desire the opposite scores that you received...32 M, 30 S, 26 R and 27 E.

Your ACT scores show you really excel in the verbal world when compared to the math/science world. You have a strong foundation there, and it begs the question why are you going technical? Are you going this route in hopes of the AFROTC scholarship?
 
No, I am doing engineering because I have a genuine interest in it.

A multiple choice test really can't tell you if you would be good at engineering or not. From what I understand, engineering is about the APPLICATION of math and science, not just filling in bubbles. I did really well in my math and science classes (A's) so I am excited about it.
 
Engineers don't give up.

kingneptune117 said:
No, I am doing engineering because I have a genuine interest in it.

A multiple choice test really can't tell you if you would be good at engineering or not. From what I understand, engineering is about the APPLICATION of math and science, not just filling in bubbles. I did really well in my math and science classes (A's) so I am excited about it.
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You are so right. I'm an engineer, manage engineers, evaluate engineers, hire engineers, etc.

My best engineers have two things in common and it's not what tier college they went to or what their math SAT scores were, it's 1) a hard work ethic and 2) a good sense of humor. You struggle through enough hard problems without quitting and eventually you will understand what's going on but you have to genuinely enjoy the math or whatever it is. Kind of like pullups. You may be starting at not being able to do one and some observers may say your hopeless and just quit but doesn't mean you can't get to 18 or 21 eventually if you work hard enough. ROTC detachments all like to talk up getting tutors for math and science for their cadets. Hold them to it and get the extra help when you need it. Air Force ROTC also told us (ever det we talked to said the same thing) AF will allow engineers to take 5 years, not 4, to complete their degree - just get your Engineering program advisor to make out a 5 year syllabus and turn that in to your Det and your set. If you think you should maybe take a course like geometry or pre calc before you launch off into calc just do it if you think the college is going to place you into a math class that's over your head. Not everyone comes from a great high school with great math programs and classrooms free of disruptive students. A couple of my engineers said they attended summer classes for incoming freshmen geared towards getting their math in better shape for their freshmen fall year. Consider that. Also consider a smaller college that doesn't have 100+ kids in their fresman/sophomore math and science classes. Good luck. Engineers don't give up.
 
luckymacy said:
You are so right. I'm an engineer, manage engineers, evaluate engineers, hire engineers, etc.

My best engineers have two things in common and it's not what tier college they went to or what their math SAT scores were, it's 1) a hard work ethic and 2) a good sense of humor. You struggle through enough hard problems without quitting and eventually you will understand what's going on but you have to genuinely enjoy the math or whatever it is. Kind of like pullups. You may be starting at not being able to do one and some observers may say your hopeless and just quit but doesn't mean you can't get to 18 or 21 eventually if you work hard enough. ROTC detachments all like to talk up getting tutors for math and science for their cadets. Hold them to it and get the extra help when you need it. Air Force ROTC also told us (ever det we talked to said the same thing) AF will allow engineers to take 5 years, not 4, to complete their degree - just get your Engineering program advisor to make out a 5 year syllabus and turn that in to your Det and your set. If you think you should maybe take a course like geometry or pre calc before you launch off into calc just do it if you think the college is going to place you into a math class that's over your head. Not everyone comes from a great high school with great math programs and classrooms free of disruptive students. A couple of my engineers said they attended summer classes for incoming freshmen geared towards getting their math in better shape for their freshmen fall year. Consider that. Also consider a smaller college that doesn't have 100+ kids in their fresman/sophomore math and science classes. Good luck. Engineers don't give up.
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Thanks for the encouragement!

I am currently in an intro to engineering class in high school and we are working mostly with woodshop and autodesk inventor. I designed, right down to the nuts and bolts, a model F-15C in Inventor and built it BY HAND. Boy was it satisfying when I finished it. I know it is probably not anywhere near as hard as real engineering is, but the class is an INTRO to engineering class, just to give me an idea of what the real thing is like.

My teacher has a mechanical engineering degree and says I am off to a great start!

University of Iowa may not be the BEST engineering school, but I am excited about it!
 
The best school is always the best fit for you. Don't worry about where they rack and stack on USNWR, it is more important that you want to be there.

Trust me, the biggest motivation for a college kid is the fear of leaving...not facing the folks...instead, saying goodbye to their friends!
 
Hey folks!

We're going all over the topic here and while I think the discussion is good and the points being made are valid, I think we need to return to the original question.

And that unfortunately is something that none of us can answer for this young man with any certainty.

I've read all the posts, seen all the comments, ideas, suggestions, etc., but in the end, it will come down to this:

a. Does the candidate's SAT/ACT/Academic record warrant consideration for scholarship award in ANY category?
b. IF the answer is yes to "a'" then will come the consideration of PFA, ALO (or ROTC instructor) evaluation on the Form 4060
c. IF that is positive, then will come the DODMERB evaluation where his concern about his hand will be addressed. Mr. Larry Mullen, DODMERB Deputy Director has said it perfectly: this can't be addresses until a DODMERB physical and the hand is examined. ONLY THEN can a determination be made as to whether or not this is a DQ item, a "non event" or ? In further comments, it was mentioned that a doctor who does Flying Class I was consulted but remember: DODMERB is the first that must be cleared; the rest don't count for a candidate.
d. IF all this is positive, then this package will go before the ROTC Scholarship selection board for review. If chosen, the candidate will be notified. If not chosen, it goes back in the pile for further consideration until all scholarships are awarded.

Any other speculation on a "what do you think? Can I, will I, might I?" is just that: speculation and truly has no value.

I think you all have covered this topic very well but I think now it's getting a bit excessive? The discussion of academics, schools, etc., is great and I would encourage that to continue if its helpful! :thumb:

Just my opinion and I'm certainly NOT telling you to stop; that's not my place, but I think it's time to end the speculative and focus on the things that we can obtain concrete answers to so that we can help this candidate and any others with similar questions.

JMHO.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
flieger83 said:
a. Does the candidate's SAT/ACT/Academic record warrant consideration for scholarship award in ANY category?
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kingneptune117 said:
I have a 28 ACT, a 3.2/4 GPA, top 60% class rank, employed two years straight, working about 14 hours a week.
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FWIW:

Last year DS talked to the AF PMS at Miami Oxford, he was very diplomatically told
that his chances of a AFROTC scholarship were close to nil. (finance major)
He was told if he was a language/Mandarin major his odds 'improved a little'

His stats; 27 ACT, 3.32/4 GPA , top 50% class rank, 3 HS Varsity Letters, 20 hrs/wk job, charities, student council etc.
He applied for and received an Army 4yr scholarship.

“Opportunity often comes in disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat.” -Napoleon
 
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Steve has scored his own "Shack" here with his post. When the target is hit spot on like that, there really isn't any further need to waste more ammo on the same target, in this case the OP's inquiry into his chances towards getting a ROTC scholarship.

Instead, I'll simply remind the OP (and everyone else) that to me it very much sounds like that while he has a long term goal / dream (fighter pilot), everyone here is focusing on the first few steps on only one path to that goal (the ROTC scholarship). Life's full of curveballs and challenges, and most times the paths we all set to reach those goals aren't as easy as we hoped for and are forced to adjust to. If you really want that commission, you really want those wings, and really want to be a fighter pilot, then keep striving (like you ARE!), and when those obstacles DO hit (and they will) simply pick yourself up and try another path. There are many paths out there, and both Steve and I (and quite a few others here) can tell you the stories on how some folks we know went some pretty funky routes to get to the same places we were.

I completely understand the fear and concern many here have in securing financial support for school, and possibly one that almost guarantees the first steps on that path that you're hoping for. Economic times are tough (trust me, with two currently in college and a third a year behind, I know this too well!) Much tougher to pay for school than when I went. And with the drawdown looming, the chances for a scholarship (or an admission to one of the academies) is only going to get tougher. But if your goal is as the OP's, there ARE other paths (PM myself or Flieger, and we'd be glad to talk to you with some suggestions). I will say this as a warning: sometimes each of those paths get harder; you'll really have to push yourself more and more each step of the way.

One more thought, directly to the OP. I applaud your drive and desire. I encourage you to keep it up, because what you have is the first key towards success in life! But many here have pointed out the multitude of obstacles that you currently face towards getting the path you're currently striving for. They are NOT trying to discourage you, not in the least. They are simply giving you their experience into making you realistically see the obstacles ahead of you (and in my experience, these are some serious obstacles) so you can either find a way to overcome them to get your selected path, or for you to be ready to find a different path towards your ultimate goal.

I'll finish with this. Only one of the obstacles you've mentioned (your hand issue) is of the type you can't do something about. It is what it is, and you'll either get a waiver or you won't. The rest (grades, test scores, PT scores, etc.) is ALL UP TO YOU. You want to be a fighter pilot? Well, here's your first lesson: we don't take excuses, we only take RESULTS. Your goal is worth fighting for, and if you want it, you simply have to have OUTSTANDING results in every area you have control over. Your goal is an adult's goal, so man up and work your tail off to make those results OUTSTANDING. THAT is the best way to ensure you succeed, not just in getting this goal, but in life. You only have one obstacle towards that goal that you have no say over (your hand issue). Everything else is directly under YOUR control, and if you don't reach that dream, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Tough first lesson. The other lessons you'll eventually learn as a fighter pilot are even tougher.

I sincerely wish you all the best and hope you make that dream come true. Like i said, I admire those with a "Never give up" attitude. Every one I knew in the fighter world would say the same...
 
Bullet said:
Steve has scored ...
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Positively one of the best posts I've read on SAF.

The only other thing I would add is that different people peak at different stages of their lives. And different people thrive in different environments. For example, the Homecoming King in my high school never went on to college, and I am very sure that someone who unsuccessfully applied for an ROTC scholarship or Service Academy admission will one day lead our nation's armed forces to great things and become a 4-star general (in fact, it has already happened!).

As Bullet points out, the money of a scholarship is nice. But it is ONLY money and definitely NOT the end-game. I have had so many "tough lessons" in my life that I can't possibly count them (like the day I learned that I was not a recipient of a 4-year AROTC scholarship). These experiences have all made me stronger. Those who haven't experienced "tough lessons" in life tend to burn up when they re-enter the Earth's atmosphere.
 
When I was like 2 I had surgery done on my hand by the #2 plastic surgeon in the nation. I have been getting yearly check ups and everything has been fine.

Would it be a good idea to, before I go in for my dodmerb exam, have him write my dodmerb doctor a letter saying that my hand is fine and wouldnt hinder me from performing duties?
 
YES!

You have the Flight Doc world, ask him to give you key words that DodMerb looks for...range of motion maybe?
 
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