AFROTC to Navy

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Bdl1127, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. Bdl1127

    Bdl1127 Member

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    Sorry if some questions and ideas I have may seem stupid or seem like "longshots"

    I am contracted AFROTC. Going into ROTC I didnt really care all too much about flying and now I am very interested in it. Unless the Air Force switches to the Farnsworth Lantern test before I commission, there is no way I am flying in the Air Force or doing anything besides sitting behind a desk for that matter.

    1. I know this is probably not possible, but I figure its worth asking..Is it possible to be a AFROTC graduate and commission into Navy after college? I can pass the farnsworth and know that the Navy accepts it.

    2. If option 1 is impossible, how hard would it be to go Navy after my Air Force Commitment is up? Anyone know any people that have successfully done this?

    TIA
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Confusion here.

    You are DodMERB qualified, correct? Even if you have color vision issues, you got a Q in the end, right? Did they waive you for vision or did you require no waivers at all? Have you contacted the DoDMERB help desk to determine if you even need a waiver?

    If they did and you have perfect eyesight otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue because cadets do not enter as a "selected rated" position, they enter with the premise they can be "rated" upon passing their outgoing DoDMERB.

    Traditionally for many it is the vision issue, but not color vision. For example that is why so many talk about PRK, mainly due to the fact that they want a pilot slot, not just any old rated slot. I have never seen incoming cadets on the AFA forum that had their waiver revoked for color vision when it came to UPT slots.

    AF is much more lenient in terms of color deficiency than the Navy. For many they do not need a waiver due to the level they have set as a bar is lower than the Navy.

    Again, not following because unless you know you passed the FALANT, why you would assume that the AF wouldn't take you. Yes, I know the AF doesn't rely on FALANT, but you would pass their test too.

    Remember DODMERB DQ's; it is up to the branch to waive it.

    Your other issue is you want to fly. Navy is great, but this always comes up when it comes to chancing cadets. Navy has a much smaller inventory than AF, thus it is more competitive to get as an NROTC cadet, IMPO, than an AFROTC cadet. Purely based on availability for open slots. So even if you jumped over to the Navy there is no guarantee.

    You need to decide that if all options didn't work which branch would I want to fly a desk for. At that point go and fight for it.

    Cadets believe that getting a UPT slot equates into being winged. It doesn't, many for all of the branches wash out. None of them 100% graduation rate, probably 85% on a good day is their rate. Even SA grads bust, and many of them have flying hours before they go to UPT. There is no guarantee of becoming a pilot, the only guarantee that you will have is you will owe at least 4 yrs back upon commissioning for both the AF and the Navy.

    If you want to be in the Navy because at least even flying a desk makes your heart jump, than you should jump now.

    As far as the x-commissioning it happens, but it is not an easy process. 1st AF has to be willing to cut you loose, 2nd Navy has to want you, plus wants you as a rated officer. In these days with tightening budgets, I am not sure I would bet on this option.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  3. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    The stats for mids billeting into Naval Aviator might help:

    Naval Academy: 227 mids = 30% of those going Navy... doesn't count Marines. Source: Mid 1c who posted them here.
    NROTC: 273 mids = 29% of Mids in "Navy Option NROTC": source late 2010published targets.

    I'm not sure how many wanted Naval Aviator and didn't get it.

    What is the % in AFROTC cadets as freshmen who ultimately get rated?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    For this past yr the rate of getting rated, which includes pilots, CSOs. Navs and ABM was in the high 80%. At our DS's school and Nick4060 (different college) it was 100% of those that asked for rated got rated.

    DS's only 1 got CSO, due to an eye issue, the rest got UPT.
    Nick's college 100% got pilot that requested rated.

    However, those stats mean nothing for several reasons.
    1. Nobody knows what the needs of the pipeline for rated officers will be when a cadet enters as a freshman. Hence, it could be 30% next yr.
    2. It does not include the original sample pool of the amount of cadets entering as freshman. Obviously, cadets leave, which would mean if you used the original pool the % would be less. Remember for AFROTC the make or break yr is C200, and SFT, where the national avg of acceptance is hovering in the mid 50's%.
    3. It does not include the % that does not ask for rated slots. If only 30% ask for rated, that would mean the % would be less, but obviously if 50% ask than the % would be higher.

    My point was and still is that for the AF, since they have a larger inventory of aircraft than the Navy, and they are smaller than the Navy. Theoretically, the statistical chances of getting a pilot slot would be higher due to the amount of available personnel compared to the amount of inventory.

    Additionally, for AFA, it is about 55% that get UPT out of the class from an overall stat, BUT, it really is 100% for those qualified and requesting a UPT slot. Just like in the Navy not everyone wants to fly.

    Additionally, for this one poster, the eye vision issue is a big "if" an "if" that traditionally the AF waives, but the Navy doesn't as easily.
     
  5. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    AF relies exclusively on the PIP test and my understanding is that they have recently made the requirements even more stringent. Perhaps this explains the change in qualification. USN aviation relies exclusively on the FALANT test. Those with red and/or green weakness may be unable to pass the more subtle PIP test but will have no problem with the FALANT. The FALANT will only detect the true color blindness since this is the sole concern of the Navy.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I wouldn't doubt they may have raised the bar for the DQ process, mainly because they are trying to slow down the incoming class sizes.

    As it has been stated many times, the branch does the waiver process. I recall in 97 they not only raised the age limit for UPT, but also allowed people to come in with vision issues that DQ'd them yrs earlier for flying...reason why some became WSO/EWO's in the 1st place.

    I believe that is no longer the case. As I stated one cadet in our DS's class got CSO because he had PRK surgery and unfortunately he did 2 big mistakes.

    1. Did it privately and not with a DodMERB doc. A very reputable doc that did Tiger Woods and Vijay Singh's eyes, but still not a DoDMERB doc.

    2. Did not time it right for healing time and thus, he flunked the vision part of the flight physical.

    Of course he is now going through the waiver process, but because of this he missed the boards, and has to hope that he can get permission to go UPT after he finishes.

    Overall, I still stand by premise that he needs to look at everything and understand even if he could get a slot in both branches, which branch would he want to serve in if he didn't get a slot, because that is a reality. If he wants to serve Navy regardless of flying, he should go Navy. If he only wants to go Navy because he thinks it is his best option to fly, he needs to understand that there is no guarantee, and even if he did get a UPT slot, did graduate, flying is not every day of the week, and will not be every assignment for the next 20 yrs (at least for the AF) if he wants to climb the promotion ladder; which means he will fly a desk.

    I think kids believe that if they go rated, it means that M-F every day they will fly, that this is their only job, and will be their only job forever. Yes, it is like that for the 1st few yrs., because your job is being a student.
     
  7. Packer

    Packer Member

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    This is exactly the advice I give my son. If you don't get to fly what would you be happy doing? Also, in the AF it seems the promotion ladder is considerably easier to climb if you are a pilot. Do you want to stay for 20 or get out at 5?
     
  8. Bdl1127

    Bdl1127 Member

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    I think you are mistaking Pima. I am already a contracted AS100 cadet, been dodmerb qualified, etc. I got called back to the optometrist for remedial tests. The test i intially took was the isihara and im pretty sure I failed it. The next day when I went back I took the Falant. I ended up getting DOD qualified no problem however I am confused because the Air Force doesn't value the falant. any explanations/insight?
     
  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The Air Force discontinued use of the FALANT in 1993 due to its frequent failure to identify cases of color blindness considerably more serious than the test was intended to let pass.

    PIP is a more sensitive test.

    I am still confused by your post. The way I read this is you were sent for a remedial, which they did both PIP and FALANT.

    When you were going through this process were you also doing it for an NROTC scholarship, but later on you decided to take the AFROTC scholarship over the NROTC scholarship?

    Additionally, have you talked to the NROTC unit at your college. If I am correct for NROTC they have something sim. to AFROTC that by your rising jr. yr in college you must have advance standing, and not everyone gets it. Like SFT is the make or break for AFROTC.

    It is important to talk to them to find out if it is a risk worth taking. If only 75% get advance standing, that is important, I don't know the actual percent, this is just for discussion purposes.

    1. It is unlikely you will be able to get that scholarship for your soph yr because currently you are a contracted AFROTC cadet.
    ~~~Can you afford to attend without the scholarship, even if you have a Type 7, that still is for some students 12K a yr for IS.
    ~~~ Plus let's be real, if an NROTC CC has to chose between you and a mid in NROTC for that 1 scholarship, who do you think they are going to award it to? My bet is the NROTC mid since they have proven their abilities to the unit since minute 1.

    2. If 75% get it, you still have 25% that don't get it.
    ~~~ What do you do now if you are one of the 25%? You are disenrolled from NROTC.
    ~~~ Your only option left is to graduate and apply for OCS, hoping you will get that + a rated slot.

    Remember, statistically the Navy has less rated officers than the AF, hence more competition.

    This is why I say if you want the Navy regardless of those pretty brown shoes, go to the Navy now, and start working with them to X over. If it is only the brown shoes, start figuring out how you will afford the loss of a scholarship with no guarantee of anything.

    Not saying you will not get one, just saying the longer you sit on the fence to decide, the harder it will be. I don't know if they allow mids to join mid-yr, but at least you can now be placed on their radar if they don't. Waiting until May will hurt you because if they allow you to come in as a 200, jobs will already be given out for their 200's. AFROTC gives out fall semester jobs for 200's in the spring of their 100 yr. That will result in you getting whatever was left over, which in turn will hurt your resume, which in turn will hurt you when you go up for Advanced Standing. Thus, bring us back to point 2.

    Good luck
     
  10. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Just some minor points
    That is correct Pima.

    There would still be time to go PLC provided you find out about advanced standing before applications are due and you were willing to take the risks and serve as a Marine. Keep in mind you better be very physically fit.

    I agree with Pima that this is risky, you won't always fly in any case, and if you are going to pursue it then get on it ASAP. I knew a couple Naval aviators who only spent a small part of their careers flying... Staff assignments, tours in Pentagon, air station commander etc.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Kinnem,

    For the OP, lurkers and myself, do you know the length of the "window" for advanced standing and PLC? Is it 6-9 months or 6-9 weeks.

    I love learning about each branch and how they work. 6-9 months is one thing, 6-9 weeks is another.

    Bdl1127,

    You have 2 threads going right now, and I think it is great because you are trying to get a big pic, before you jump.

    Yes, it is important to see if SFT will be an option based on your stats, BUT, you are a 1st semester freshman and that gpa for SFT will be 3 semesters. Additionally, this is really a question for your AFROTC unit since like Packer, and myself our kids dets have cadets going with gpa's lower than the national avg. You need to look at your det stats for guidance.

    Does your det have Mentors? These are POC cadets that attended SFT, and are C300. They will be your mentor as a 100 and 200, after 200 and upon completion of SFT you will become a Mentor. Mentors may have more than 1 cadet. DS has 4. He is able to also see your weaknesses and strengths compared to the other cadets.

    I am guessing you would be happy in the AF or the Navy equally if you didn't get rated.

    I would suggest you actually start a new thread for NROTC regarding chances for you for Advanced Standing.

    Place your whole life on the line, major, current college gpa, AFROTC scholarship recipient, etc.

    You cannot make a decision if you don't have the facts from both sides. I get the SFT thread, I don't get not creating an Advance Standing thread...unless you have decided you will only jump if the chances of getting SFT are slim.

    If that case, let me place the next hurdle...go to SFT, graduate at the bottom 25%. That happens.

    Now in your equation you want a non-rated field with high demand, i.e. Intel. How you rack out of SFT will be your make or break.

    I hate to say it, but it never ends with AFROTC boards in college, and each time the competition is stiffer.
     
  12. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Good question Pima! I didn't know, which is why I had the caveats in my post on this topic. I did a little more research and pulled this off the University of Michigan NROTC website:

    This is from the Official Marine Corps site on PLC:

    So it would seem as a practical matter that as a rising junior it would be impossible to switch to PLC if you didn't get Advanced Standing, but it could be done as a rising Senior. I don't know when applicatoins would be due but I have to believe there is plenty of time to get this done once you get a 'no' on Advanced Standing.

    Also, as I read this, it's still necessary to complete OCS after graduation.

    Finally, I suppose one has to wonder about one's chances of getting into PLC if one didn't get Adanced Standing.... but I'm sure there are no stats and I certainly don't have any insight on this. I would also expect that there are "always exceptions that prove the rule" (whatever it is) as well. I would think Advanced Standing would be cheaper for the Navy than supporting a person in PLC due to travel, pay, meal costs, etc. etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    My younger son looked at the PLC program pretty hard before deciding on the Army.

    It was my understanding from our meetings with them that you could join the PLC program as a freshman. You would have the choice to split your OCS time into 2 summer sessions of 6 weeks each or do the entire 10 week OCS at one time. You would go to the first session the summer after your sophomore year, the second session would be the summer after your junior year. If you chose to do the 10 weeks you would attend OCS the summer after your junior year. My son was told that if he wanted to do the 10 weeks he could actually join the PLC program at the end of his sophomre year since there would be nothing to do regarding the Marines for the first 2 years of school. PLC members do not participate at all with the ROTC program. It would seem that the OP could still wait and see if he gets his AF Training slot, if he doesn't he could apply for PLC and do the 10 week course the summer after his junior year. Of course he would need to talk to the Marines to make sure that is still possible.

    I have heard the slots for the PLC are starting to become hard to get, they still are the single largest pipeline for Marine Corps Officers but they are cutting back as well.

    Of course all of this could have changed since my son's conversations with the Marines but is definatly something worth looking into.

    On a side note, there is a + and - to everything. The nice thing about the PLC is that you do not need to be in ROTC, your time at school is completely void of anything involving the Marines or ROTC which does free up more of your time for school. The one caveat of the program is the physical part. Many PLC members underestimate the physical rigors of OCS. When your not forced to be at PT in the morning, taking physical tests, and being pushed you can sometimes slip a bit in your training regiment. Most kids won't strap a 40lb pack on their back and run 6 miles if their not told to, it takes a lot of dedication. Marine Corps Option ROTC cadets go through the same OCS, the difference is, they have trained for it for 3 years under the guidance of ROTC.

    The PLC program is a terrific way to gain your commision and aviation is offered through the program, the young person just needs to be dedicated and prepared.
     
  14. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Hmmm... just musing here.

    It seems there are really a LOT of roads toward commissioning:

    - Active Duty non-college graduate transitioning to ROTC at a college. (Marine = MECEP, Navy = STA-21, Army = Green to Gold, AF = ?)
    - Regular college student, no ROTC at all, Officer Training School after graduation (Army = OCS, Navy/Marines - ??, AF = ??)
    - Join the National Guard or Army Reserves and simultaneously participate in the Army ROTC program = SMP (without ROTC Scholarship, but with SMP benefits)
    - Attend college at a Sr. Military College with or without ROTC, and join the Corps of Cadets (Texas A&M, Citadel, VMI, VaTech, N. GA, Norwich)
    - Attend College and join an ROTC program without a scholarship, and without a service commitment for 2 years. At the end of sophomore year, be selecting to advance to Advanced Standing, and Contract as a non-scholarship member for Jr. and Sr. years.
    - Attend college as a regular student, not ROTC, and sometime in the first three years sign up for Marine PLC program.

    I really only have paid attention to Navy and Army, but I am impressed that there are really a lot of ways to get a commission if a person is determined.
     
  15. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Often people forget that Marines have a substantial fixed wing aviation component. Firsties at the Academy interested in a Pilot slot often take a very close look at the Naval Aviator vs. Marine Aviator options, and it isn't an easy decision for most.
     
  16. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    PLC is a great program. A neighbor''s son went that route. I see him at my local cigar shop from time to time. He really matured thru the program. PLC was DS's plan C.

    I would think the difference between Navy and Marine fixed wing is 'strike' vs 'tactical support'. No idea on the airframes though.
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    AF enlisted personnel can get their undergrad using TA, and than go OCS/OTS without ever leaving AD. This is why you see the DFAS pay charges have rank and grade. It is very possible in the AF to be an O1 with 6 yrs...the 6 yrs would include your enlisted time.

    Once they have their undergrad they can apply for OCS. AF holds 2 different types of boards for OCS. Rated and non-rated. They will need Wing command support to meet the boards.

    They use to hold 2 board a yr for each. Last yr the non-rated July board was cancelled, but the rated board did meet. Who knows, TY the non-rated board can meet and the rated be cancelled.

    This will not for AF purposes allow them to be commissioned into the AF. They MUST ATTEND SFT, just like for the Navy re:advanced standing.
    SMC does not equate into a commissioning. The Corps does not require a cadet to be in any ROTC program at these schools. HOWEVER, the ROTC program at these schools require them to be in the Corps.

    It is not the same. If you do not get selected for SFT (AF) or Adv. Standing (Navy), you are disenrolled from ROTC, but you are still a member of the Corps. Now your option falls to plan B for commissioning.

    I would never tell anyone to try the enlisted route as a path, annd here are my reasons why:
    1. YOU BELONG TO THEM
    ~~~ You can't guarantee you will not be deployed or PCS'd at times that are conducive to getting your degree on base at the Education Office. You can be PCS'd half way through your undergrad to a new base, and that base may not have the same satellite college. Some have Troy, some have Webster, some have UMD,, but there is no guarantee they all have all 3.
    2. YOU MUST STILL GET AN UNDERGRAD
    ~~~ Hard to do when you are sitting in a sandbox for 6 months. Life gets in the way, and even if you did work hard on your academics, it would be close to impossible to graduate within 4 yrs while you have a "real" job that takes up 40 hrs+ a week.
    3. YOU BELONG TO THEM
    ~~~ To be put up for OCS/OTS you must have command support. The commander can deny it due to Op tempo. Thus, now what?


    I am not saying there aren't multiple paths, because there are. I am saying that theory and reality rarely meet. You need to place that into the equation.

    Now back out of this post being in the weeds. The OP has 2 threads currently going.

    1. AFROTC to NROTC due to vision issues.
    2. Trying to figure out his chances for SFT.

    Both threads are important. He needs to make a decision. JMPO, but I am assuming that the SFT chance is his make or break. I think he is starting to comprehend that in both services there are no guarantees for flying, let alone an airframe.

    I would say to the OP that if flying was his deal, but he only wanted RW, he should jump now, because he would be a fool to stay due to the lack of RW in the AF. He should also look at AROTC. However, since he is going between AF and NROTC, I am going to take the leap he wants FW.

    He really needs to do 1 thing, and 1 thing alone...CONTACT DODMERB because as of right now he has stated
    Pretty sure and sure are two different things. Until he knows that the AF failed him, this is all moot. Isihara is also known as PIP, which is the AF method, FALANT is Navy. That is why I posted he needs to explain why he took the FALANT, who authorized it? The answer is there if he asks the right question.

    Additionally, as I also stated the hardest thing for kids in college is that they understand they may be attending that college due to scholarships. Maybe NROTC cleared him for FALANT, but did not give him a scholarship to that school. That means now he has to figure out should he transfer to maybe another school if NROTC offers a scholarship to follow that dream of flying...unlikely, or should he stay at the school with AFROTC, but let the dream of flying die. AGAIN WHY TO CONTACT DODMERB NOW!

    He also needs to remove that flying perspective. Is he willing to live AF for 11+ yrs after his RNLT for UPT? It actually could be 12 yrs, if he goes casual status upon commissioning...common place. For some 18 yr olds to say to them on the best day you will be 33/34 before you can say goodbye to the AF is when they pull the handle.

    I am sure as an AFROTC cadet right now he sees 400's walking around in flight suits, and think COOL! They don't understand every aspect of what went into them getting the pjs/bags nor the fact that those 400's have said I agree to not 4 yrs., but 11+.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2011
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Thanks for mentioning that Pima. I meant to, and got side-tracked. I'm amazed how "kids" often seem to think they're the same thing. My own is a very big culprit. :biggrin:
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Here's my thing. The OP states he went remedial, but never for a waiver. Typically if you are DQ you go for a waiver. He also went for a FALANT, but the AF does not accept this test, which to me means:
    A. Paid for it on their own
    B. Applied NROTC and was sent by DoDMERB for that scholarship.

    He should have some formal letter from AFROTC or DoDMERB that would state the results of the remedial (PIP). AF DOES NOT ACCEPT FALANT! They would have never requested the test. NAVY requires FALANT for pilot.

    If he also applied for NROTC he would have that paperwork too.

    Now here is the new kink in the system. That DodMERB exam may not be valid when he goes up for contracting if he switches to NROTC. That would mean e has to start it all over again.

    Do the timeline.

    DoDMERB sometime sr yr in hs., or summer. It is only valid for 2 yrs. If he leaves AFROTC after his freshman yr., it is highly unlikely he will contract NROTC his soph yr in college. He would than contract fall semester jr. yr. That would be passed his original DodMERB exams, and would immediately initiate a new series of exams, including the vision.

    This is also why you should keep every piece of paperwork from the minute you start your scholarship process.

    I may seem harsh when I say this, BUT rated officers are commonly referred to as the 6 Million Dollar officer. It costs about that much from start to finish to get them operational. One yr at UPT is not cheap...JP8 is not cheap. 6 months of training in their air frame is not cheap. MQ training at the op base is not cheap. IFS, SERES, and Water Survival are not cheap. Centrifuge training is expensive. Moving them 3 or 4 times in @ 2 yrs. plus paying TDY for IFS and SERES costs a lot.

    Remember for every UPT student they have a squadron to train them. They pay Sim instructors to run the Simulators. If a UPT student is married prior to UPT, they are eligible for housing, med. benefits, BAH, per diem for a PCS, and weight allowance. These are costs that the AF will have to incur and budget.

    Start adding the dollars. It is like ROTC, the cost of the scholarship at the college is easy to calculate, however, nobody thinks about the cost for the ROTC instructors at the college, or at Maxwell for SFT, or the personnel at Maxwell that candidates talk to who work on their scholarship file.

    The in-direct costs are probably higher than the direct.

    Just something to think about when you all say that the ROTC scholarship program states the scholarship = X dollar, and IYHO the number doesn't match.

    Back to the OP, only you have the answer about if you passed their vision test. IMPO, because you know that you passed FALANT, I am guessing you got a snail mail letter from the AF saying you failed PIP and would need a waiver.

    Nobody on this board would criticize you for going NAVY to follow that dream. If anyone does, I will be the 1st to defend you. I will also be the 1st to remind you getting a rated slot out of ROTC does not equate into being winged, it does equate into owing time.

    Good luck.

    Sorry for the long post.

    I would also say to the OP, you may not be able to go Pilot, but that doesn't mean you won't go rated for the AF. CSO or ABM may be available.
     
  20. Bdl1127

    Bdl1127 Member

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    thank you all for the great responses. The thing that beats me is the fact that I did not even apply for a Navy ROTC scholarship. Hence why I am confused as to why I took it when called back. I didnt need a waiver either. I got qualified for both Air Force and Army ROTC no waivers necessary.

    And correct me if im wrong, but all rated positions need perfect color vision correct? and do they ever waive color vision issues for rated slots?
     

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