raimius
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...you say this based on what?
Air Force Jobs and Majors
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Christcorp
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Not sure I really believe this. Your OPR and job performance/endorsements will carry much of the weight. Also, if you've gotten your grad school, war college, etc... out of the way. Also, your grad school degree is going to have a lot more emphasis on your promotion than your undergrad degree did. Using your same example, both captains; one with an engineering degree and the other a history degree; both go to grad school at the same time; both get their master's degree in the same field of study. That master's degree will pull much more weight than the undergrad degree.
Also, it depends on your job. If you are in Intel, but you received an engineering degree from the academy, and your peer in intel received a degree in Political Science; do you really think the engineering degree will pull more weight. Very unlikely. Now, if one of these received a masters in International Studies and the other received theirs in art&fine arts; that might mean something.
Now, if both captains are pilots, then a master's in business or humanities would probably pull more weight than a grad degree in sports&physical Ed. Especially considering that eventually, pilots who stay in long enough, will be looking at being a squadron commander or other leadership roles.
Point is; in order to go seriously up the food chain beyond captain, you will need your master's degree done. That master's degree and your OPR, performance, and endorsements will mean a lot more than your undergraduate degree major. Someone like my son is majoring in Behavioral Science. He's also taking Organic Chem and the rest of the required classes in hopes of going to medical school. But if that doesn't pan out, or he simply changes his mind, he may apply to be a pilot. He degree will mean no less than the engineering degree in his career. Now, what he does in grad school can make a difference.
But the key, as you rightly mentioned is, if you have the desire for a degree in engineering, then you should pursue it. But as you can see, not everyone wants a degree in engineering. Nor should they try and get one. Picking a degree because you think it will help your military career just isn't a smart move. You'll do better in a degree that you're interested in. Plus, unless you plan on using engineering in your career, it's pretty silly to get a degree in it.
Pima
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I have to raise the BS flag.
By the time Captain A and B go up for Major, their college degree means diddily squat! The AF is going to look at what they have done for the past 8+ yrs in AD.
Let's look at this realistically. Capt A can be eligible to go to TPS, because of Engineering. However, the fact is being an Engineer compared to a History major will not guarantee you fighters. Flying a plane is not all academic math and science. HANDLING the stick also plays a huge role. The only flyer in Bullet's FTU to be FEB'd was an engineering graduate of the AFA. This was out of a class of 18.
Next, Capt A applies for TPS, but is never accepted. Captain B takes a different route of WIC, and gets accepted. Captain B is now a patch wearer...this is a big deal. The O4 board is going to see on Capt B...AFA grad, and Patch. Capt A they only have AFA grad. Who should they take for promotion..the one with a history major, but invested millions in training for weapons instructor or the engineering major that has not grown in their career field, but he is an engineer.
Let's also acknowledge that the AFA does open doors, but to say that the history major AFA is passed over, would imply that every ROTC commissioned officer should pack it in after their commitment is over, because they are not on par with the AFA.
If the big thing you have on your OPR for O4 is graduate of the AFA, than guess what, both Capt A and B will not be pinning on.
I know for a fact for Bullet's O4 board, his OPR consisted of jobs held (one where he was named AF ALO of the yr---not the AFA ALO), medals, and it didn't hurt he was DG 3 times in various schools. Yes, it showed his college major and he was ROTC, but you don't get points at O4 for that. You have 9 lines to sell yourself, college no longer matters, it is all about AD life. Again, if at this point the AFA is one of those 9 lines, start sending your resume out, because you have one more board to meet before they hand you your walking papers.
FYI, 2 of his crewmates were passed over...guess what they were AFA grads and engineers to boot!
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Pima
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One additional thing to address is from Mike (CC) regarding PME and Masters.
Currently, Masters at O4 is masked. You may have it done by the O4 board, but the board will not see it. They will see it at the O5 board.
The important thing to understand on why you should get it done as soon as possible, is because the AF can always go back to unmasking it for O4 and it can hurt you. Bullet got his done as an O3 because at that time O4 was unmasked, his 1 below the AF decided to mask it, thus it played no part in his promotion.
PME. The only school eligible for Captains would be SOS. The AF keeps messing with this. Yrs ago SOS was like any other PME, you competed for the slot. Not everyone went in residence. In residence makes a big difference in those 9 lines. It tells the board that the AF thought they were better than their peers because they paid for them to go. The AF then changed it to every one would go SOS in residence. I am not sure where it stands now, but it would not surprise me if they go back to the competition mode since they are going through RIF issues for Captains.
Finally, Mike as always has the best advice.
Currently, Masters at O4 is masked. You may have it done by the O4 board, but the board will not see it. They will see it at the O5 board.
The important thing to understand on why you should get it done as soon as possible, is because the AF can always go back to unmasking it for O4 and it can hurt you. Bullet got his done as an O3 because at that time O4 was unmasked, his 1 below the AF decided to mask it, thus it played no part in his promotion.
PME. The only school eligible for Captains would be SOS. The AF keeps messing with this. Yrs ago SOS was like any other PME, you competed for the slot. Not everyone went in residence. In residence makes a big difference in those 9 lines. It tells the board that the AF thought they were better than their peers because they paid for them to go. The AF then changed it to every one would go SOS in residence. I am not sure where it stands now, but it would not surprise me if they go back to the competition mode since they are going through RIF issues for Captains.
Finally, Mike as always has the best advice.
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"Plus, unless you plan on using engineering in your career, it's pretty silly to get a degree in it. "
Obviously
Obviously
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SamAca10
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Thought I'd jump into this conversation, as it applies not only to prospectives/cadets at AFA, but from all colleges.
I'm currently having a conflict in choosing a major. I thought that I wanted to do engineering, but I know for a fact that I would do much better if I majored in Government. (This is based off of the fact that during high school I would easily get A's and A+'s in History/Social Studies classes, but would struggle to get B+'s and A-'s in my math and science classes) Would you guys say it would be better to major in Government if I could get a higher GPA in it than if I would get a lower GPA in Engineering?
In high school the highest level math and science classes I took were AP Calculus, AP Physics, and AP Chemistry.
I suppose this taps into the age-old question: Is it better to major in the sciences or the humanities?
I'm currently having a conflict in choosing a major. I thought that I wanted to do engineering, but I know for a fact that I would do much better if I majored in Government. (This is based off of the fact that during high school I would easily get A's and A+'s in History/Social Studies classes, but would struggle to get B+'s and A-'s in my math and science classes) Would you guys say it would be better to major in Government if I could get a higher GPA in it than if I would get a lower GPA in Engineering?
In high school the highest level math and science classes I took were AP Calculus, AP Physics, and AP Chemistry.
I suppose this taps into the age-old question: Is it better to major in the sciences or the humanities?
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Uh, NO.
Not the case at all.
Academic major isn't part of the Officers Promotion Selection Brief. It's there but I asked 3 officers I know that sit on boards and they said this would have no bearing on the promotion of the officer.
Officers' records are 'scored' based upon a criteria given to the board members. You can never have this scenario occur because all records are scored by all members of the board and then the totals are tallied and the list of selects is made from that: highest scores get promoted per the quota assigned by law for that board.
Steve
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USAFA '83
USAFMortensen
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The point I was trying to make is an engineering degree from the Academy carries more weight than any of their other programs I don't think anyone with disagree with that.
Not true. I recently had a long chat about going to the Academy with a young Lt. Col and he gave me two major points of advise that I trust consider he made Lt. Col very early and must know quite a bit about this subject. And they were:
1. GPA is THE most important thing, your GPA WILL follow you throughout your career(Said he was STILL asked about it for his Lt.Col promotion).
2. Get an Engineering degree if you are able. If you do, no opportunities will be closed for you. If you do not many doors will be shut(This is for pilots btw) including TPS and many special assignments and duties.
I was planning on a behavioral science major until I sat down with him and after about 45 minutes of questions/answers he had me convinced Engineering is the way to go if you can maintain the GPA.
Not true. I recently had a long chat about going to the Academy with a young Lt. Col and he gave me two major points of advise that I trust consider he made Lt. Col very early and must know quite a bit about this subject. And they were:
1. GPA is THE most important thing, your GPA WILL follow you throughout your career(Said he was STILL asked about it for his Lt.Col promotion).
2. Get an Engineering degree if you are able. If you do, no opportunities will be closed for you. If you do not many doors will be shut(This is for pilots btw) including TPS and many special assignments and duties.
I was planning on a behavioral science major until I sat down with him and after about 45 minutes of questions/answers he had me convinced Engineering is the way to go if you can maintain the GPA.
Christcorp
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Sorry, but I do disagree with this. There are certain careers that require certain education; obviously. And for Test Pilot and such, an engineering degree is pretty much mandatory. If you wanted to work at Kirtland Air Force Base at Sandia Laboratories; an engineering degree would pretty much be a pre-requisite for that career field. Including pilot, unless your job required such a degree, there are no doors shut to you because you didn't have an engineering degree.
If you are in a career that requires an engineering degree, then all your peers in that career probably also have engineering degrees. But if you want to look at a career that didn't require an engineering degree; e.g. Pilot, OSI, Intel, etc... then no, you having a degree in engineering is not going to give you a leg up on your peers.
Now, does your GPA/Class Rank at the academy have any bearing after graduation? Unofficially, yes. People's perceptions of you can and may be based somewhat on how you did at the academy. But that will only really last until you've had a chance to have a resume of accomplishments. So, until you're a captain, which is pretty much automatic unless you really screw up, your GPA from the academy may have some unofficial significance. But by the time you are going for major, it's what you've accomplished since being in the air force that will matter. I've asked a couple of academy grad friends of mine, and both say the same thing. And Steve (Flieger) who is still active duty, an academy grad, and high enough in the food chain to know better, seems to concur. That's good enough for me.
But please folks, this is not about arguing or trying to one up anyone and see who's right. This is a very important topic. There are a lot of applicants/cadets who are going to go to the academy and it's important that they know, that they shouldn't choose specific majors because they think it might help their career. It won't. Pick the major that you are interested in, and in a field that you want your career to be in. If you want to be a pilot, non-test pilot or astronaut type, where the major doesn't really matter, then consider a major in the areas you are interested in and that can possibly be of use to you down the road. After all, that's what education is all about. To help you to become the best you can be. It's not going to do you any good to have a 3.0gpa as an engineering major if you aren't into engineering and won't be applying for a career in engineering. Then again, neither will a 4.0gpa help you if that's not what you want to do with your life. If you like human psychology and sociology, major in Behavioral Science. If you love history and the military, then a degree in military studies might be more in line. And who knows, maybe the idea of going to law school later interests you, and you want a career out of the academy in security, you might like a degree in legal studies.
Yes, aero/astro engineering and systems engineering are indeed popular degrees at the academy. But Business/management degrees outnumber engineering. And social and hard science degrees are not to far behind.
http://www.stateuniversity.com/universities/CO/United_States_Air_Force_Academy.html
So study what interests you and do your best in that major. The rest of your career will take care of itself. No one wants a "Career Officer"; (Derogatory meaning), someone who comes into the air force with the only thing on their mind is of Making General some day. Like a "Career Politician", who's never really succeeded in really accomplishing anything useful, they are loathed. The military men and women want officers who are genuine. Who care about the people as much as the mission. Where "Service Before Self" aren't just words, but mean something. Tell you what.... Watch the movies: "Men of Honor" and "Heartbreak Ridge". If you can point out the "Career Officer" (The derogatory definition I'm trying to describe) in each of these movies, then you are on the right path to becoming an excellent officer. If you can't,,,,, well, good luck to you. Mike....
Pima
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First off, Mike is right, this should not be a tit for tat situation. It should be about disseminating the best information.
I understand you are getting valuable advice and that is great. However, you have yet to understand a "line number". That GPA does play into the scenario. HOWEVER, it does not play into the game of OPR (promotion boards). The higher the GPA the lower your line number, the lower the number the earlier you pin on. The reason this Lt Col is asked about his gpa is because it is tied to his line number, it is not on his OPR! This is akin to ROTC grads knowing their DOR.
Now let's put that in perspective, do you actually believe that if they promote 100 O3's a month, that if you get promoted 1 month, 2 months, or even 4 months later you have an edge 4 yrs down the line for promotion to O5.
Bullet went to sister service as an O4 for PME, out of a class of 60 (the entire class was @ 600), only 15-20 were AFA grads. Additionally, out of the 60 AF officers, maybe 15 were flyers. Out of the 15 flyers, maybe 6-8 were fighters. Out of those 6-8 fighters, I only recall ONE AFA grad.
Don't bank on the AFA commission to be a safety net.
Next, everyone agrees engineering opens doors, regarding flying, but I think you are putting the cart before the horse. You can graduate with a 4.0 from the AFA in engineering and still BUST UPT. There is no true equivalence that a UPT student with an engineering degree will be the #1 at UPT. Like I said before it is how you handle the stick.
If you want TPS, then without a doubt go Engineering, but if anyone tells you that you can't make it to the top without TPS, then they are lying.
BTW, I would love to see you have this conversation with Gen. Gould...you know the SUPE of the AFA...FYI...he is a 1976 graduate of the AFA with a BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE DEGREE.http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5596
Or
General Mark Graper who graduated with a degree in International Relations AFA class of 80, he has over 2600 Fighter Hours
http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=8310
Or
General John Hesterman --- AFA grad International Studies AFA class of 83 ---2100 Fighter Hours.
http://www.jcs.mil/biography.aspx?ID=46
Or
General Norman Seip who graduated with a degree in History from the AFA in 1974. He has over 4500 Fighter hours.http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7104
Now, I love OBD, but check out Brig. Gen Robersons career...he was an AFA 83 grad in Engineering.
http://www.tyndall.af.mil/library/biographies/bio.asp?bioID=10893
Notice something? He graduated with MAJOR GEN Hesterman. Last time I checked a shoulder flip OBD loses to Hesterman. OBD was engineering, Hesterman was not. Both flew the F-15E. Under your premise OBD should win the shoulder flip based on his degree. (Shoulder flip is when you cover your rank on your shoulder and the one with the higher rank exposed wins).
Finally, Bullet and I had 3 friends who went to TPS, NONE were AFA grads, they were all ROTC. One did get to complete his dream of being in space last summer, after 25 yrs of working for it. YEP...25 yrs. He was commissioned in 1984, went to space in August 2009. He retired in October 2009 as a Col.
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/good-mt.html
All of us get your point that the AFA is the "Little Engineering School in the Rockies", yet, to imply that your best option for career progression is to go engineering is hurting posters. Only one of these Generals received a degree in engineering from the AFA.
I understand you are getting valuable advice and that is great. However, you have yet to understand a "line number". That GPA does play into the scenario. HOWEVER, it does not play into the game of OPR (promotion boards). The higher the GPA the lower your line number, the lower the number the earlier you pin on. The reason this Lt Col is asked about his gpa is because it is tied to his line number, it is not on his OPR! This is akin to ROTC grads knowing their DOR.
Now let's put that in perspective, do you actually believe that if they promote 100 O3's a month, that if you get promoted 1 month, 2 months, or even 4 months later you have an edge 4 yrs down the line for promotion to O5.
Bullet went to sister service as an O4 for PME, out of a class of 60 (the entire class was @ 600), only 15-20 were AFA grads. Additionally, out of the 60 AF officers, maybe 15 were flyers. Out of the 15 flyers, maybe 6-8 were fighters. Out of those 6-8 fighters, I only recall ONE AFA grad.
Don't bank on the AFA commission to be a safety net.
Next, everyone agrees engineering opens doors, regarding flying, but I think you are putting the cart before the horse. You can graduate with a 4.0 from the AFA in engineering and still BUST UPT. There is no true equivalence that a UPT student with an engineering degree will be the #1 at UPT. Like I said before it is how you handle the stick.
If you want TPS, then without a doubt go Engineering, but if anyone tells you that you can't make it to the top without TPS, then they are lying.
BTW, I would love to see you have this conversation with Gen. Gould...you know the SUPE of the AFA...FYI...he is a 1976 graduate of the AFA with a BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE DEGREE.http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5596
Or
General Mark Graper who graduated with a degree in International Relations AFA class of 80, he has over 2600 Fighter Hours
http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=8310
Or
General John Hesterman --- AFA grad International Studies AFA class of 83 ---2100 Fighter Hours.
http://www.jcs.mil/biography.aspx?ID=46
Or
General Norman Seip who graduated with a degree in History from the AFA in 1974. He has over 4500 Fighter hours.http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7104
Now, I love OBD, but check out Brig. Gen Robersons career...he was an AFA 83 grad in Engineering.
http://www.tyndall.af.mil/library/biographies/bio.asp?bioID=10893
Notice something? He graduated with MAJOR GEN Hesterman. Last time I checked a shoulder flip OBD loses to Hesterman. OBD was engineering, Hesterman was not. Both flew the F-15E. Under your premise OBD should win the shoulder flip based on his degree. (Shoulder flip is when you cover your rank on your shoulder and the one with the higher rank exposed wins).
Finally, Bullet and I had 3 friends who went to TPS, NONE were AFA grads, they were all ROTC. One did get to complete his dream of being in space last summer, after 25 yrs of working for it. YEP...25 yrs. He was commissioned in 1984, went to space in August 2009. He retired in October 2009 as a Col.
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/good-mt.html
All of us get your point that the AFA is the "Little Engineering School in the Rockies", yet, to imply that your best option for career progression is to go engineering is hurting posters. Only one of these Generals received a degree in engineering from the AFA.
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LOL!
Daryl and John...both classmates of mine and folks I've tipped a few back with. FYI...I like Daryl better but they're both incredibly talented individuals!
John was Cadet Wing commander and Daryl was a squadron commander as a cadet, heck, he might have been a group commander...I can't remember...age being what it is.
BUT...they're both 1-2 grades ahead of me now and I'll NEVER catch up...and that's okay!
But you know, their majors had NOTHING to do with their ability and quality as officers. They've made their careers based upon their performance.
And that's been pretty outstanding!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Bigman2014
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Well this brings up quite a problem with myself. I'm part of the class of 2014 of the academy and after seeing all this talk about flying and majors not being such an integral part of flying, there's another issue that I have personally: I don't have the best vision. I current wear glasses/contacts and yet I'm extremely interesting in being a pilot. Does this automatically deny me a chance at flying? Or is corrective surgery an option?
Christcorp
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After you get to the academy, in your 2nd year there, you will go through a series of medical exams if you want to be a pilot. If your vision falls within certain parameters, you can get PRK surgery. "Similar to Lazik", look it up. If your eyes don't fall into these parameters, you can apply for a waiver to wear contacts. Assuming you get one of these 2, you can be a pilot. If you can't get PRK and can't get a waiver, then no, you won't be pilot qualified. Hope that answers. Mike...
Informative thread realitive to AF careers, although as a non-military person need to translate some of the acronyms 
There was much dicussion on degrees and how they relate to AF career/advancement...can some elaborate on rated (i.e.pilots) vs. non-rated jobs with respect to AF career/advancement/promotion/leadership potential?
There was much dicussion on degrees and how they relate to AF career/advancement...can some elaborate on rated (i.e.pilots) vs. non-rated jobs with respect to AF career/advancement/promotion/leadership potential?
Pima
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Rated officers are flyers. For promotion purposes they meet promotion boards with the "typical" officer. Doctors, lawyers, and Chaplains have their own specific promotion board.
Traditionally rated officers have a higher promotion rate than their line counterparts (i.e. Supply, Finance, Personnel, Intel, etc). The reason behind the rate is actually simple. You can take a flyer out of the plane and put him/her in a desk, you can't take the Maintenance officer and put him in the jet just as easily. Thus, if they need to go through a RIF, the non-rated officer is at a disadvantage for job security reasons.
Additionally it costs millions to train flyers and that is why they try to keep them from a fiscal standpoint.
Promotion rates vary board to board. There have been yrs that it was at 60% for O-4, and yrs that it has been at 80%. In the AF unless you have a DUI you will get promoted to at least O3.
Career advancement really relies on how "plugged" in to the system you are. I know many officers who did not make O-5, because all they wanted to do was fly. They were great flyers, but when you get to a certain point the military wants to see that your career isn't one dimensional. Commanding a squadron is not the same as flying a jet, if you don't have PME, Masters, and some type of joint assignment or a WIC patch, the chances are slim you will be perceived as a leader.
There are generals that come from all different fields, but they were the plugged in officers. They looked at their job from a promotion standpoint, if that meant becoming a beltway bandit they took it. Flyers see the Pentagon as some form of the Bermuda Triangle and 99.999% of them will do everything in their human power to avoid it as long as they can (some will even volunteer for a remote to Korea over going there).
In the end, it is true for both the rated and non-rated regarding how to climb the ladder. You volunteer/apply for every school that is good for your career. You take a job because it is good for your career, not because Hickham or Eglin has an opening! You need to always look one PCS ahead even as you are just getting your orders cut. You need to have career goals and a realistic path to get you there.
For example, Bullet flew the 111 right out of the gate as an O-2. During our 1st tour he realized the jet would be boneyarded and he didn't want to get stuck flying it his entire career. He took a Jump ALO with the 82nd, 2 yrs later he was flying the Strike in Alaska, his friends were still flying the 111 in Canon NM (yikes!). As a Jump ALO he was the 9th AF's ALO of the yr. 5 yrs later because of that and other things he was selected for O4 and allowed to apply for PME in residence. 2 yrs later he was selected to attend the Army PME, because of that ALO job. (Sister school is a big deal in the PME world). PME got him the Def. Promote for O5. He took a Pentagon job from there, which allowed him to step back in the cockpit one last time. It also allowed him to create contacts for after retirement, which we kept because as we were buying our last military home we had already started our plans for returning to the area as a civilian. We actually had recruiters/cranium hunters calling our home 2 yrs before he retired. He put in his retirement papers a yr out because we already had a job in hand, and as everyone knows the defense contracting world is the one place you can financially do just as well if not better than the airlines (you start out in the 6 figures for defense, for airlines you start out at O2 salary)
As you can see, we had never stopped thinking about if we do this what will that mean then? Our friends who didn't plot out their careers, just thought about it when they were given 6 months notice, landed up retiring at 20 yrs, on O-4 pay, and the difference between O4 and O5 retirement pay for the rest of your life is quite substantial. Additionally, because they never stepped out of the jet, their career options were very limited. Many of these people were pilots and lived with the theory that they would fly airlines, only to find out that airlines weren't hiring and now they needed to find a desk. Some of them waited months just to become a sim instructor. Their thoughts of making boatloads of money as a retiree were cut short because sim instructors don't make boatloads.
If you are thinking about non-flying it is important to realize that 703 area code will be in your future if you want to make it to O6. 703 is the Pentagon!
Traditionally rated officers have a higher promotion rate than their line counterparts (i.e. Supply, Finance, Personnel, Intel, etc). The reason behind the rate is actually simple. You can take a flyer out of the plane and put him/her in a desk, you can't take the Maintenance officer and put him in the jet just as easily. Thus, if they need to go through a RIF, the non-rated officer is at a disadvantage for job security reasons.
Additionally it costs millions to train flyers and that is why they try to keep them from a fiscal standpoint.
Promotion rates vary board to board. There have been yrs that it was at 60% for O-4, and yrs that it has been at 80%. In the AF unless you have a DUI you will get promoted to at least O3.
Career advancement really relies on how "plugged" in to the system you are. I know many officers who did not make O-5, because all they wanted to do was fly. They were great flyers, but when you get to a certain point the military wants to see that your career isn't one dimensional. Commanding a squadron is not the same as flying a jet, if you don't have PME, Masters, and some type of joint assignment or a WIC patch, the chances are slim you will be perceived as a leader.
There are generals that come from all different fields, but they were the plugged in officers. They looked at their job from a promotion standpoint, if that meant becoming a beltway bandit they took it. Flyers see the Pentagon as some form of the Bermuda Triangle and 99.999% of them will do everything in their human power to avoid it as long as they can (some will even volunteer for a remote to Korea over going there).
In the end, it is true for both the rated and non-rated regarding how to climb the ladder. You volunteer/apply for every school that is good for your career. You take a job because it is good for your career, not because Hickham or Eglin has an opening! You need to always look one PCS ahead even as you are just getting your orders cut. You need to have career goals and a realistic path to get you there.
For example, Bullet flew the 111 right out of the gate as an O-2. During our 1st tour he realized the jet would be boneyarded and he didn't want to get stuck flying it his entire career. He took a Jump ALO with the 82nd, 2 yrs later he was flying the Strike in Alaska, his friends were still flying the 111 in Canon NM (yikes!). As a Jump ALO he was the 9th AF's ALO of the yr. 5 yrs later because of that and other things he was selected for O4 and allowed to apply for PME in residence. 2 yrs later he was selected to attend the Army PME, because of that ALO job. (Sister school is a big deal in the PME world). PME got him the Def. Promote for O5. He took a Pentagon job from there, which allowed him to step back in the cockpit one last time. It also allowed him to create contacts for after retirement, which we kept because as we were buying our last military home we had already started our plans for returning to the area as a civilian. We actually had recruiters/cranium hunters calling our home 2 yrs before he retired. He put in his retirement papers a yr out because we already had a job in hand, and as everyone knows the defense contracting world is the one place you can financially do just as well if not better than the airlines (you start out in the 6 figures for defense, for airlines you start out at O2 salary)
As you can see, we had never stopped thinking about if we do this what will that mean then? Our friends who didn't plot out their careers, just thought about it when they were given 6 months notice, landed up retiring at 20 yrs, on O-4 pay, and the difference between O4 and O5 retirement pay for the rest of your life is quite substantial. Additionally, because they never stepped out of the jet, their career options were very limited. Many of these people were pilots and lived with the theory that they would fly airlines, only to find out that airlines weren't hiring and now they needed to find a desk. Some of them waited months just to become a sim instructor. Their thoughts of making boatloads of money as a retiree were cut short because sim instructors don't make boatloads.
If you are thinking about non-flying it is important to realize that 703 area code will be in your future if you want to make it to O6. 703 is the Pentagon!
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scoutpilot
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Informative thread realitive to AF careers, although as a non-military person need to translate some of the acronyms
PME = professional military education. Service schools. They usually include a school for captains/company grade officers and then another school or two for field grades and another for flag officers or rising flag officers. Sister service PME isn't a big deal anymore, as the "joint" spirit means we frequently swap spots. Most of the officers in this unit went to a different school, even (eep!) the Air Force school. The Marine Expeditionary Warfare School is a frequent sister school for us, as is Naval Postgraduate School.
ALO = Air liaison officer. Tasked with integrating USAF assets into the ground force fight, which included a myriad of tasks such as monitoring the AFARN (Air Force Air Request Net) and advising the groud force operations officer and commander. They were a much bigger deal back in the days of linear battlefields. Currently, they're mostly laptop-driving denizens of the DOC now (Div. Ops Center). They like mIRC chat, coffee, and needlessly wearing flightsuits to piss off the G-3 Sergeant Major. Used to be a flight-crew-only gig, but we're seeing all brands now (notice I said flight crew, not pilot).
UPT = Undergraduate Pilot Training. To the layman, Air Force basic flight school
Pima
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Short answer YES, the AFIT grad will be perceived higher in their early career.
AFIT is a big deal and it will open more doors for you...for example, go to AFIT, it is something when you go to your 1st operational base that the incoming commander will see. TRANSLATION: They graduated at the top for the AFA. They proved themselves to the AF that the AF has decided to invest more money into their future.
Current AFA grads who had UPT slots, but took AFIT also got their follow on for UPT. Pretend your the commander of that UPT class, they know you are later to the game because the AFA sent you to AFIT.
NOW, that being said, there are officers who got their Masters on the AF dime later in their career because Masters are masked until O5 boards. Some officers who get the opportunity to apply for PME at O4 will take fellowships and get there Masters at that point. We have friends who got theirs from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc, at the O4 point. Their job for that yr was to attend a civilian university on the AF's dime.
Also, AFIT can be a double edged sword, and cadets from the AFA who have been given this opportunity had to think long and hard before accepting. They understood that it was a golden opportunity academically, but also had an impact for the operational life because they would be delayed entering that world. The delay could mean that they would not be the ultimate candidate for WIC or Test School. In the flying world AFIT is not going to get you a command as fast as WIC, that patch goes very far. If you take AFIT, that means you are 2 yrs behind your counterpart when it comes to upgrades and age, don't have the upgrades, you can't apply, and now a door closes. 2 yrs behind and maybe you also miss out on combat, which plays into applying for WIC and Test.
You have to look at your ultimate career goals. You need to assess your own desires. In the flying world that the decision is rarely never second guessed.
AFIT is a big deal and it will open more doors for you...for example, go to AFIT, it is something when you go to your 1st operational base that the incoming commander will see. TRANSLATION: They graduated at the top for the AFA. They proved themselves to the AF that the AF has decided to invest more money into their future.
Current AFA grads who had UPT slots, but took AFIT also got their follow on for UPT. Pretend your the commander of that UPT class, they know you are later to the game because the AFA sent you to AFIT.
NOW, that being said, there are officers who got their Masters on the AF dime later in their career because Masters are masked until O5 boards. Some officers who get the opportunity to apply for PME at O4 will take fellowships and get there Masters at that point. We have friends who got theirs from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc, at the O4 point. Their job for that yr was to attend a civilian university on the AF's dime.
Also, AFIT can be a double edged sword, and cadets from the AFA who have been given this opportunity had to think long and hard before accepting. They understood that it was a golden opportunity academically, but also had an impact for the operational life because they would be delayed entering that world. The delay could mean that they would not be the ultimate candidate for WIC or Test School. In the flying world AFIT is not going to get you a command as fast as WIC, that patch goes very far. If you take AFIT, that means you are 2 yrs behind your counterpart when it comes to upgrades and age, don't have the upgrades, you can't apply, and now a door closes. 2 yrs behind and maybe you also miss out on combat, which plays into applying for WIC and Test.
You have to look at your ultimate career goals. You need to assess your own desires. In the flying world that the decision is rarely never second guessed.
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thanks for the great information.
I probably wasn't as clear as i should have been. i was not trying to compare gonig to AFIT directly from USAFA vs. going to grad school later. Rather going to AFIT directly from USAFA vs. going to someplace like Rice directly from USAFA.
UPT is not currently an option do to vision although that could change before all is said and done, but for now it is not an option.
I probably wasn't as clear as i should have been. i was not trying to compare gonig to AFIT directly from USAFA vs. going to grad school later. Rather going to AFIT directly from USAFA vs. going to someplace like Rice directly from USAFA.
UPT is not currently an option do to vision although that could change before all is said and done, but for now it is not an option.