Air Force vs Navy

Let's be honest with ourselves, people...

When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." They're kids. They're KIDS. They're college students. All that blather about "they're 18 and they're adults" aside, they are young kids who get amped up about good football games. This fact emcompasses ALL the academies. The misbehavior that occurred is something that happens at every single academy football showdown. We did rowdy and reprehensible stuff to the mids. They did it to us. The Air Force kids were no different.

Endlessly on this forum I see parents and adults demand some ownership of the cadet experience, as though these kids' sole purpose is to strut around as showpieces for the gentry--little toy soldiers for their parents to brag about at church socials. The fact is that it's not about the parents (you) or the grads (me, Mongo, etc.). It's about the KIDS and the long road to officership. That road is full of potholes and poor choices. It's how people learn. The SA experience is a four-year crucible of development. Part of that development is making mistakes and being punished for them.

When cadets/mids get together, they are hard on one another. They do rough and rowdy things to one another. It's not always laudible or right or fit for public consumption. But the rancor and hard knocks only exist because of the shared experience of being an academy cadet/mid. You don't see Air Force doing it TCU cheerleaders, or Army doing it to Temple frat boys, or Navy getting rowdy with Georgia Southern students, do you? No, you do not. Those people are of no consequence to academy kids other than as opposing fans. Academy kids are rough on one another because they are brethren in the profession of arms--a profession which by its nature resonates with type-A go-getters who don't back down from a fight.

Is it right or commendable? No, of course not. They'll be punished (or should be). It's one of the unfortunate but predictable side effects of training kids to be combat leaders, amping them up about a big rivalry, and then cramming them together in the heat of the moment.

But to say things like "consider me briefed on the ways of the Air Force Academy" is sad and myopic. Did they misbehave? Sure. Just don't go about fooling yourself that Navy and Army don't do the very same things.
 
Mids and AF Cadets amped up at their rivalry football game with some trash talking and incidental contact.:eek: You gotta LOVE college football!!:biggrin: I'd venture to bet that 99.9% of Cadets and Mids involved had huge grins on their faces until they got up this morning and back to reality. My vicarious "dog in the hunt" is Navy, and from what I can tell more than a few AFA flight caps somehow found their way to Annapolis yesterday.

My real "dog" this weekend took a beating at the hands of the land thieves.
 
Mids and AF Cadets amped up at their rivalry football game with some trash talking and incidental contact.:eek: You gotta LOVE college football!!:biggrin: I'd venture to bet that 99.9% of Cadets and Mids involved had huge grins on their faces until they got up this morning and back to reality. My vicarious "dog in the hunt" is Navy, and from what I can tell more than a few AFA flight caps somehow found their way to Annapolis yesterday.

Of course. However, one is mandated to continue the tradition. Last year AFA complained about USNA hospitality, the audaciousness of firing a cannon at the end of each quarter, after the play was over. That it must have rattled the players, causing them to lose. And the lack of professionalism of a perfectly executed perfectly timed flyover just because they didn't know the parameters. etc etc etc
 
Let's be honest with ourselves, people...

When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." They're kids. They're KIDS. They're college students. All that blather about "they're 18 and they're adults" aside, they are young kids who get amped up about good football games. This fact emcompasses ALL the academies. The misbehavior that occurred is something that happens at every single academy football showdown. We did rowdy and reprehensible stuff to the mids. They did it to us. The Air Force kids were no different.

Endlessly on this forum I see parents and adults demand some ownership of the cadet experience, as though these kids' sole purpose is to strut around as showpieces for the gentry--little toy soldiers for their parents to brag about at church socials. The fact is that it's not about the parents (you) or the grads (me, Mongo, etc.). It's about the KIDS and the long road to officership. That road is full of potholes and poor choices. It's how people learn. The SA experience is a four-year crucible of development. Part of that development is making mistakes and being punished for them.

When cadets/mids get together, they are hard on one another. They do rough and rowdy things to one another. It's not always laudible or right or fit for public consumption. But the rancor and hard knocks only exist because of the shared experience of being an academy cadet/mid. You don't see Air Force doing it TCU cheerleaders, or Army doing it to Temple frat boys, or Navy getting rowdy with Georgia Southern students, do you? No, you do not. Those people are of no consequence to academy kids other than as opposing fans. Academy kids are rough on one another because they are brethren in the profession of arms--a profession which by its nature resonates with type-A go-getters who don't back down from a fight.

Is it right or commendable? No, of course not. They'll be punished (or should be). It's one of the unfortunate but predictable side effects of training kids to be combat leaders, amping them up about a big rivalry, and then cramming them together in the heat of the moment.

But to say things like "consider me briefed on the ways of the Air Force Academy" is sad and myopic. Did they misbehave? Sure. Just don't go about fooling yourself that Navy and Army don't do the very same things.

As a parent, I agree with this POV. We cross posted.
 
Of course. However, one is mandated to continue the tradition. Last year AFA complained about USNA hospitality, the audaciousness of firing a cannon at the end of each quarter, after the play was over. That it must have rattled the players, causing them to lose. And the lack of professionalism of a perfectly executed perfectly timed flyover just because they didn't know the parameters. etc etc etc

Should, would and will happen if its major rivalry. There's a lot of underlying respect, begrudgingly perhaps and maybe unknown by some. You don't get amped for something you don't care about. Heck, if *****ing's tradition by all means carry on.
 
Let's be honest with ourselves, people...

When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." They're kids. They're KIDS. They're college students. All that blather about "they're 18 and they're adults" aside, they are young kids who get amped up about good football games. This fact emcompasses ALL the academies. The misbehavior that occurred is something that happens at every single academy football showdown. We did rowdy and reprehensible stuff to the mids. They did it to us. The Air Force kids were no different.

Endlessly on this forum I see parents and adults demand some ownership of the cadet experience, as though these kids' sole purpose is to strut around as showpieces for the gentry--little toy soldiers for their parents to brag about at church socials. The fact is that it's not about the parents (you) or the grads (me, Mongo, etc.). It's about the KIDS and the long road to officership. That road is full of potholes and poor choices. It's how people learn. The SA experience is a four-year crucible of development. Part of that development is making mistakes and being punished for them.

When cadets/mids get together, they are hard on one another. They do rough and rowdy things to one another. It's not always laudible or right or fit for public consumption. But the rancor and hard knocks only exist because of the shared experience of being an academy cadet/mid. You don't see Air Force doing it TCU cheerleaders, or Army doing it to Temple frat boys, or Navy getting rowdy with Georgia Southern students, do you? No, you do not. Those people are of no consequence to academy kids other than as opposing fans. Academy kids are rough on one another because they are brethren in the profession of arms--a profession which by its nature resonates with type-A go-getters who don't back down from a fight.

Is it right or commendable? No, of course not. They'll be punished (or should be). It's one of the unfortunate but predictable side effects of training kids to be combat leaders, amping them up about a big rivalry, and then cramming them together in the heat of the moment.

But to say things like "consider me briefed on the ways of the Air Force Academy" is sad and myopic. Did they misbehave? Sure. Just don't go about fooling yourself that Navy and Army don't do the very same things.

Thank you.
I thought that quote from singaporemom was ridiculous. My son is at AF, that was a huge win for them. They let loose and had a great weekend. I am pretty sure he did not hurt anyone in the process. These kids are being trained to fight, the rivalries that exist between these academies is second to none, but, when they are on the battlefields of Afghanistan or where ever, they know they are on the same team.
Everything I have seen at AF has been first rate all the way around.
 
When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." They're kids. They're KIDS. They're college students. All that blather about "they're 18 and they're adults" aside, they are young kids who get amped up about good football games. This fact emcompasses ALL the academies. The misbehavior that occurred is something that happens at every single academy football showdown. We did rowdy and reprehensible stuff to the mids. They did it to us. The Air Force kids were no different.
Not so sure. Sounds like things are out of hand at WP also. These are SAs. More is expected. Like it or not.

When I went to USNA, it was a conduct offense to 'boo' the opposing team. We have only played UMD in football twice in the last 50 years, and that is just recently. A couple of exhibitions of bad sportsmanship on their part and we just took them off our schedules. All sports. Done deal. And we finished #2 in the nation back then. Just because everyone else is doing it, is not an excuse to do it oneself.

Since the beginning of the rivalry, in the Navy locker room, Notre Dame has always had the reputation for being the dirtiest team Navy faced. Is AFA replacing them? Is this just kids being KIDS? I don't think so.

I think singaporemom is correct. She and the public should demand more. No need to wait four years till they graduate. Commence now.
 
Not so sure. Sounds like things are out of hand at WP also. These are SAs. More is expected. Like it or not.

When I went to USNA, it was a conduct offense to 'boo' the opposing team. We have only played UMD in football twice in the last 50 years, and that is just recently. A couple of exhibitions of bad sportsmanship on their part and we just took them off our schedules. All sports. Done deal. And we finished #2 in the nation back then. Just because everyone else is doing it, is not an excuse to do it oneself.

Since the beginning of the rivalry, in the Navy locker room, Notre Dame has always had the reputation for being the dirtiest team Navy faced. Is AFA replacing them? Is this just kids being KIDS? I don't think so.

I think singaporemom is correct. She and the public should demand more. No need to wait four years till they graduate. Commence now.

If hypocrites could fly, this place would be an airport. :rolleyes:
 
as parents who were sitting in the section immediately next to the MIDS i have to honestly say i did not see one MID come off the field who didn't have a smile on his/her face, our Plebe included (yes, it took me by surprise but i'm a mom)......we also couldn't believe how many of the MIDS and Cadets were "hanging" out together during the game, as we witnessed many "Kodak" moments, one of the best occuring when an AF Cadet exchanged shoulder boards with our Plebe......
 
as parents who were sitting in the section immediately next to the MIDS i have to honestly say i did not see one MID come off the field who didn't have a smile on his/her face, our Plebe included (yes, it took me by surprise but i'm a mom)......we also couldn't believe how many of the MIDS and Cadets were "hanging" out together during the game, as we witnessed many "Kodak" moments, one of the best occuring when an AF Cadet exchanged shoulder boards with our Plebe......


It is a tradition to exchange shoulder boards at AF before the football games. MY son had his Squadron Commander's shoulder boards. One cadet we met during PW went to exchange Shoulder Boards with General Gould before the game. I forget if Gen Gould did it. These kids are under intense pressure, I don't think there is anything wrong with them blowing off some steam during their downtime.
I served in a very strict Marine Corps. I found it very cool that these kids can approach a General. I know I would never have considered it.
 
Let's be honest with ourselves, people...

When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." ...

I agree 100%

The mids generally do not mind the type of things that are being complained about as much as the parents and fans do.

Complaining about this kind of stuff in the immediate aftermath of losing a big game makes us look like whiners. I would never accuse any of the other academies of being classless. At worst - I would "accuse" them of being kids, just as you've said.
 
I agree 100%

The mids generally do not mind the type of things that are being complained about as much as the parents and fans do.

Complaining about this kind of stuff in the immediate aftermath of losing a big game makes us look like whiners. I would never accuse any of the other academies of being classless. At worst - I would "accuse" them of being kids, just as you've said.

Yup. God forbid a 19-year-old act like he's 19 :thumb:
 
Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
Let's be honest with ourselves, people...

When cadets and midshipmen go to an academy, they do not transform into 45-year-old parents with 401(k)s and sensible shoes. They are not imbued with limitless maturity and a predisposition to be "Minnesota nice." They're kids. They're KIDS. They're college students. All that blather about "they're 18 and they're adults" aside, they are young kids who get amped up about good football games. This fact emcompasses ALL the academies. The misbehavior that occurred is something that happens at every single academy football showdown. We did rowdy and reprehensible stuff to the mids. They did it to us. The Air Force kids were no different.

Endlessly on this forum I see parents and adults demand some ownership of the cadet experience, as though these kids' sole purpose is to strut around as showpieces for the gentry--little toy soldiers for their parents to brag about at church socials. The fact is that it's not about the parents (you) or the grads (me, Mongo, etc.). It's about the KIDS and the long road to officership. That road is full of potholes and poor choices. It's how people learn. The SA experience is a four-year crucible of development. Part of that development is making mistakes and being punished for them.

When cadets/mids get together, they are hard on one another. They do rough and rowdy things to one another. It's not always laudible or right or fit for public consumption. But the rancor and hard knocks only exist because of the shared experience of being an academy cadet/mid. You don't see Air Force doing it TCU cheerleaders, or Army doing it to Temple frat boys, or Navy getting rowdy with Georgia Southern students, do you? No, you do not. Those people are of no consequence to academy kids other than as opposing fans. Academy kids are rough on one another because they are brethren in the profession of arms--a profession which by its nature resonates with type-A go-getters who don't back down from a fight.

Is it right or commendable? No, of course not. They'll be punished (or should be). It's one of the unfortunate but predictable side effects of training kids to be combat leaders, amping them up about a big rivalry, and then cramming them together in the heat of the moment.

But to say things like "consider me briefed on the ways of the Air Force Academy" is sad and myopic. Did they misbehave? Sure. Just don't go about fooling yourself that Navy and Army don't do the very same things.

Scout; that is about the BEST post I've ever read, putting a cadet/mid into perspective. THANK YOU. I wish that could become mandatory reading. Not just for parents, but also for other military members. Especially those who also attended the academies, and FORGOT what it was to be 18-22. They'll rationalize their behavior 20-30 years later, and say "We never acted like this"; but they did. Thanks again for the post.

On a side note; I find it pretty offensive when someone mentions a certain behavior or whatever, (Which I can definitely respect that opinion and position); but then they throw the ultimate disrespect and say something like "ran over the midshipmen, knocking many, including females". Sorry, but a lot women and men have fought for years to bring equality to the military. To differentiate with words like "Including females" implies that they are "Different" and should be treated different. That's ok, people like to label others all the time, but that doesn't make them right. Cadets, are cadets, are cadets. They aren't "Female". They aren't "Black". They aren't "Gay". If you truly, deep down inside, really care that people are treated equally, then you have to refer to them equally. Don't differentiate among them. I WON'T use political correct terminology to refer to people, and I won't differentiate between cadets because of their gender, skin color, religion, etc... Anyway, sorry that some mids got knocked to the ground. Hope they are alright. Whether they were male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc... is totally irrelevant. It has no bearing whatsoever on them getting knocked down. Again, I hope they are all OK. I didn't see any who needed special attention.
 
If hypocrites could fly, this place would be an airport. :rolleyes:
I assume you are referring to the apparent inability of many on these forums to distinguish between the annual Army Navy game and some perceived marching contest.
 
I assume you are referring to the apparent inability of many on these forums to distinguish between the annual Army Navy game and some perceived marching contest.

You may assume it to mean whatever you like :thumb:
 
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as parents who were sitting in the section immediately next to the MIDS i have to honestly say i did not see one MID come off the field who didn't have a smile on his/her face, our Plebe included (yes, it took me by surprise but i'm a mom)......we also couldn't believe how many of the MIDS and Cadets were "hanging" out together during the game, as we witnessed many "Kodak" moments, one of the best occuring when an AF Cadet exchanged shoulder boards with our Plebe......

I agree. We, too, were right next to the mids. Our 3/C mid and one of his best buds, also a 3/C, flew out for the weekend. They stayed at AFA with cadets. We took out a group for supper Saturday evening that included cadets and mids. Had a great time.

Maybe the charge of mids by the AFA cadets after the march on was a bit unclassy, but, hey, they are kids. Darn good kids, I might add. All of them,
AFA and USNA.

My take on the game was this.....(bear in mind, I am no football analyst!)......AFA came to the game ready to show USNA this was not the old AFA of the past. New uniforms, new helmets....they WANTED this win. USNA seemed to view it as "business as usual, ho hum...." We (USNA) played without much passion........

The flyovers were great. The falcon demonstration was cool. They claim to be the "only performing mascot in NCAA." A claim which I think the Texas Tech Red Raider who rides a black horse racing along the sidelines with the reins in his/her mouth when they score, and maybe the Oklahoma State Cowboys who do something similar horseback, might contest.

I sat among the mids at halftime. They were laughing at the overly dramatic narration of the USAFA Silent Drill Team.

We vastly enjoyed "Thudgate" and meeting Christcorp. Also the USNA tailgate, attended by Admiral Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Best of all was finally meeting up with an old college friend from (yes, it's true) 31 years ago. We reconnected last year and learned we both had sons at USNA. Small world. We missed each other at the bowl game last year.
 
The flyovers were great. The falcon demonstration was cool. They claim to be the "only performing mascot in NCAA." A claim which I think the Texas Tech Red Raider who rides a black horse racing along the sidelines with the reins in his/her mouth when they score, and maybe the Oklahoma State Cowboys who do something similar horseback, might contest.

Auburn also flies a live eagle in a similar display, in keeping with their "War Eagle" motto.
 
I thought it was pretty darned exciting, except for not one but three attempts up the middle to set up the missed field goal. Both teams made mistakes which is typical for games such as these, AF capitalized on our mistakes. We did not do the same for theirs.

AFA continues to wonder why their games will never become the rivalry that has become Army-Navy. They need to look no further than their actions. Just this past one, which is typical:
1. Entire corps, or whatever they call themselves, instead or marching off the field, literally ran over the midshipmen, knocking many, including females, to the ground. Totally classless.
2. The AF defensive player who kicked the Navy blocker, who was blocking him, in the head. The announcers were correct. He should have been ejected from the game. And since that didn't happen, the coach should have sent him to the locker room. Again, totally classless for both the player and the coaching staff.
3. The facemask incident. Surely the AF tackler knows why facemask tackles are illegial. THEY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURIES. Initially, he may not have known he had the facemask. But when he made the final effort, I'm sure he did. It was the most violent one I have ever seen. He too should have been ejected. Once again, totally classless.

Navy respects Army. Always have. Always will. They have a ways to go before it will happen with AFA.

Ah Mongo, where do I start? :scratch:

Let's just go in order, shall we?

1. Learn to call the Cadet Wing the "Cadet Wing." We at USAFA are taught that there is a "Brigade of Midshipmen" and a "Corps of Cadets" at our senior SA's: USNA and USMA. As for the "running off the field" that is the NORMAL process at USAFA; it has been and will remain. It's briefed prior to the game, ALL cadets and visitors watch the opposite stands for a flagman...the flagman gives the wing the signal for the USAFA Cheer...then the signal to run to the stands, on cue from the flagman. If the USNA midshipmen were not briefed, that is a BIG mistake by the PA folks from BOTH SA's. As for your statement that midshipmen were "run over", I think I'd leave out the gender as some might infer you think that females are less than males, require special handling, etc. I'm sure you did NOT mean that, but others here might not understand.

2. This incident is despicable. I was in the stands and sadly, I did not see it. But it was clear (on the BIG screen in the end zone) and I agree that the ref's should have handled it MUCH better. As for the coaches actions/reactions...I will defer there as I'm not Troy Calhoun and I'm not one of his coaches. I have rarely seen ANY coach for ANY team pull a player for a bad play (where a penalty was or should have been assessed). I saw one last week; I think it was the Boise State game...but that had to be the first time in years, for me. I think it would have been the right thing to do, but that's just my opinion. In this we'll agree.

3. Have you ever played defense in football and tried to run down a guy that's faster and moves better than you? You reach...and if you can grab their shirt, their shoulder pad, etc., you GRAB IT! And if you get their face mask, sadly, that happens. Is it a dangerous play? YES! When you have a grip in a full sprint and are trying to down the player, is it that easy to let go and say "sorry" in mid stride? Of course it isn't. Is it "Classless?" No. Is it in violation of the rules, YES. Should a penalty be assessed; YES and it was. Is it worthy of ejection? That is up to the referee who has to determine (in that split second/moment) whether or not the player INTENDED to do it, and INTENDED to injure. And I think if you watch the replay again and again, you'll see it was "one of those things that happens in a split second of play." Bad, dangerous: YES!!! Football? Yes.

"Navy respects Army. Always have. Always will. They have a ways to go before it will happen with AFA."

Well, unless you can speak for the Mid's of USNA, their team, their coaches, etc., I think this is a stretch. I know in my entire career I've never heard USAFA, USNA, USAF, USN folks speak of each other without a mutual respect gained through working together on a common mission. Sure, we get "playful" with one another, and sometimes that gets a bit "rough" but at the end of the day, we're side-by-side in the club/bar, having a great time together because we are ALL on the SAME TEAM.

If your take on this game was completely defined by these actions and you really think that the USAFA and USNA do not respect each other, that the AFA folks disrespect USNA, etc., then I'm sorry, I think you missed something there.

Oh, and if you wonder why the game between USAFA and USNA isn't like that of Army...well let's see...the Army-Navy game rivalry goes back to 1890...my USAFA math says that is 120 years. USAFA first played USNA in 1960 (USMA in 1959). I'd say we have a WAY to go to reach the same level of time/rivalry as our two senior SA's.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Thank you.
My son is at AF, that was a huge win for them. They let loose and had a great weekend. I am pretty sure he did not hurt anyone in the process. These kids are being trained to fight, the rivalries that exist between these academies is second to none, but, when they are on the battlefields of Afghanistan or where ever, they know they are on the same team.
Everything I have seen at AF has been first rate all the way around.

Reminds me of a quote I had to learn once upon a time "On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of Victory" / Gen MacArthur

I was proud to be a USAFA Grad and a USNA Mom while watching that game--its nice being happy with the outcome either way :thumb:
 
as parents who were sitting in the section immediately next to the MIDS i have to honestly say i did not see one MID come off the field who didn't have a smile on his/her face, our Plebe included (yes, it took me by surprise but i'm a mom)......we also couldn't believe how many of the MIDS and Cadets were "hanging" out together during the game, as we witnessed many "Kodak" moments, one of the best occuring when an AF Cadet exchanged shoulder boards with our Plebe......

^^^LOVE THIS! :wink:
 
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