Alleged Rape by cadet at college party

[Pima]

Lizzy,

I hope she also gets tested for HIV, and remembers to get tested not once, but later too, since it takes time.

The girl and boy in this case were the only ones in the room where it happened and that morning he apologized for his behavior.

As for command finding out, I don't think they will. It isn't being reported to authorities and at this time I don't think anyone in ROTC other than the two are aware of this incident. The others who know because the girl has been talking to them, are not in ROTC. Personally I feel that someone should "teach" this boy a lesson.

So the cadet admits to pushing the line, and now that he apologizes you/she believes nobody else in the unit will become aware of it?

I have 2 boys, and I believe they are respectful to women. They would never do this type of action, so that is moot. However, a guy who has to apologize for his behavior is someone I would never trust when it comes to being quiet within the unit, especially when you say someone should "teach" him a lesson.

That is most likely their MO, unless they also imbibed too much and is a gentleman, which would mean nobody needs to teach him a lesson.

Hate to say it, but this will be gossip among the guys in the unit and at college just like it was in HS. They may be in college, but they are still red blooded teenage boys where they believe respect is earned by scoring with girls. Her name may not be placed out there, but they will figure out who she is in the end.

As you stated she has learned the hard way regarding the realities of life when it comes to precautions females must take.

 

[dunninla]

I agree with kpmom2013's post.

As a practical matter, the young woman needs to decide if it is in HER interest to report a private matter. My sideline view of this is that she has much more to lose than to gain by reporting either to police, or Cadre, even if she is convinced she was fondled. Both memory and the instant understanding of what exactly is happening is distorted while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

Not everything in life needs to be settled by the judicial system.

Unfortunately the title of this thread is unproductive.

 

[educateme]

Unfortunately the title of this thread is unproductive.

please explain why you think the title of the post is unproductive? What about the title of the post bothers you?

Regarding your view that this is a private matter, I disagree. This is not just her private matter. The prospect of commissioning a potential sex abuser into the US army officer rank is NOT a private matter. Army's institutional integrity is on the line also. Besides, since when a felony assault is a primary matter? Some rape cases fall apart when the victims refuse to testify and cooperate. But it's NOT because it's a private matter.

I understand the price the alleged victim would pay by reporting this. However, this line of thinking is precisely how most traditional, conservative, and tight knit community managed to unintentionally perpetuate sex crimes of all sort for decades and decades. The emphasis should be on "how to protect the victims by lessening the burden of reporting", NOT on enumerating the myriads of "bad" consequences for her to do so and in the end discouraging her from what happened. This is how the Catholic community managed to let the sex abusers go on and repeat their crime to untold amount of new victims over the years.

If in the end the victim decides to not report, it's her choice, but there is price in this also: the sense of disempowerment and a lack of closure. This could eat the young woman's soul for a long time too. Only the victim should decide. As a parent, I would NEVER recommend her to keep quiet. If she choose to not report I will support her, but I won't actively take an initiative to tell her to keep quiet. If she does speak up, she will have my support 1000000% and a safe haven.

Again, I am not presuming the guild of the boy. I am in favor of a fair hearing and investigation.

 

[Pima]

educateme,

I get where you are coming from, but...

My MS 1 son told me that the mandatory "college life" lecture he had to attend simply said, "if somebody is drunk, having sex with her will be automatically considered a sexual assault by the university administration and be a ground for expulsion"

That is actually unrealistic since the guy would most likely have imbibed, and so he would be unable to determine if she was drunk?

The premise is alcohol is being served and you can't expel someone if they too were under the influence like the victim.

Granted, once it became "official" that she was drinking, then the punishment must be meted out to ALL cadets in that party and ALL cadets suspected of ever having been drinking in the past, and ALL future cadets that may ever drink on campus. Unless they are willing to do that, singling her "crime" of underage drinking out over and over again as part of this discussion is disingenuous.

I do not believe anyone was saying she should be the only one called out, I believe posters like KP and I both have stated that the whole unit would be called out, which would cause damage to the program.

She will have to take her responsibility in breaking the law for underage drinking just like every other cadet will, nobody IMPO was saying she "deserved" it because she was drunk and she is not a victim.

2 different things.

In all this, I am not saying that the boy actually committed the crime. That needs to be investigated, but unless it is reported, no investigation will be done. If he indeed committed this act, now we have a potential of a sex abuser as an officer, a fine scenario indeed!

I think everyone agrees with you on this position. Nobody is saying he is guilty or innocent, everyone is saying that the investigation will determine what occurs next.

I re-read again the post, and I went off a false premise.

My daughter has a friend in ROTC who went to a party with mostly ROTC people.

I assumed her DD went to the party too, since Lizzy is a poster that has been here for @ 6 months and her DD is in college. I also assumed that her DD is in that unit, but due to this post I believe it could be a HS friend who went to another college than Lizzy's DD:

The others who know because the girl has been talking to them, are not in ROTC.

That post states it is not at her DD's college.

Sometimes reading posts we make judgments without really reading it, our eyes deceive us. Here is an example:

Can you find the
the mistake
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 ?

It is now a private issue, and all we can do is wish the female cadet the best of our thoughts and hopes, that this will not jade her in believing that the military would not support her if she went further.

OBTW, I def. agree with you that the title of this thread is not unproductive.

It highlights what many have stated regarding issues for cadets with underage drinking and ROTC.

My sideline view of this is that she has much more to lose than to gain by reporting either to police, or Cadre, even if she is convinced she was fondled.

As I disagreed with KP, I will disagree with you...IMPO she has a lot more to lose if she doesn't report it and is convinced. She sold out her soul for a chance of a scholarship and a career. She will have to live with that decision, and it isn't easy to know when you are convinced he did it, you let him walk free to do it again because you had more to lose than to gain for yourself personally. Your mind is very powerful.

Sorry, but anybody who has a DD, would IMPO never tell her she has more to lose than to gain. Her self respect is not worth a college scholarship.

 

[Marist College ROTC]

Does anyone with ROTC experience have any suggestions as to what she should do? I think that even though she was drinking, so were all of the other ROTC people there and that whatever trouble she would get into would be minor as to the boy's consequences.

If your daughter's friend does not report this matter, there is 0% chance that the offender will have to face any consequences. Additionally, if she does report it, she has a chance to learn what really happened.

Those who are advocating for vigilante justice for an incident that they have no personal knowledge of, should definitely reconsider.

 

[Pima]

Marist,

Glad you chimed in, I have to ask, because to this point right now the OP said ROTC, but that could be A/AF/NROTC.

I know for our DS in AFROTC that if the victim reported it to even campus police, they would have to report it to the ROTC unit. DS's unit requires him reporting immediately a parking ticket on campus, date rape IMPO rises above a parking ticket on campus.

Is this true for your unit?

Next, can you please enlighten all of the posters of what would occur, if the Command found out that 1/4 of their cadets had a house party with underage drinking, even if campus police were not called?

What would be the actions at your unit? I am sure in the yrs you have been there, some cadets have been caught be it in the dorms or off campus. I don't think you will say alcohol consumption underage never occurred at your campus. You must have some experience of how your BN approached the issue.

Would you say that KP, myself and others have been wrong when we state that this will be gossip not only within the unit, but at the college too?

I doubt in the yrs in your position that you never heard cadets as you pass by them talk about other cadets regarding inane things they do over the weekends, including "hooking up".

What would be your advice as an ROTC AD officer. Should she report it if she is convinced that another ROTC cadet violated her regardless of being drunk?

That is the real question posed by the OP. Would you advise her to tell you as AROTC instructor, or would you say keep your mouth shut?

I get the 100% and 0% that you are stating. I am asking what your gut says, to take a side. Would you want a girl "convinced" she was to report it, or to hide it because she has more to lose than gain as an ROTC cadet?

 

[Jcleppe]

I is amazing how people in general jump to a quick conviction of someone with out the least amount of facts.

The OP ha s added to the equation by stating the kids that had too much to drink spent the night at the apartment leading on to believe that those who stayed were all past the point of casual drinking. The 2 in question slept alone together in the same room. The male apologized for his behavior, no one knows what that behavior was and how far it went. By the girls own admission she said it didn't go that far....what does that mean. Basically there are no facts just hear say and some are jumping to conclusions that a Rape has happened. The girl can't remember which means no one will ever know what happened. Testing at this point will find nothing one way or the other.

No one here knows what happened, the OP does not know what happened for sur. The story has already changed form the first post, and still some are advocating kicking the kids butt for something know one knows happened.

This girl will have to make her own mind up, if she truly feels she was abused she will do what she feels is right. Everyone seems to be convinced that something happened, that is was not just two freshman getting too drunk waking up in a strange bed with someone and feeling sick and embarrassed. Nobody knows what the apology was for. Sorry to sound skeptical but it happens. Last year a freshman girl fell from a 3rd floor window in a fraternity on campus, she claimed she was drugged, and assaulted, a young man was singled out., after the investigation it was found there were no drugs or assault, she got very drunk and wandered upstairs and fell when she passed out on a chair next to the window.

I am in no way claiming this is the case with this young woman, I can't because I don't know the facts just like no one else here does.

This is something this young woman has to decide herself, not a ROTC board full of people that don't have any facts.

It is also unfair to ask a member of a cadre from a different school to take a side and give his opinion on something in which he has none of the facts.

 

[aglages]

Jcleppe: While I agree with almost 100% of what you wrote in your last post, I don't think Pima was asking the cadre of a different school to take a side and give his opinion on something in which he has none of the facts. Her question (as I understood it) was what would happen to the other ROTC kids at a party if an incident like this was reported and whether the campus police report all incidents to the ROTC unit. Perhaps I misunderstood.

It is also unfair to ask a member of a cadre from a different school to take a side and give his opinion on something in which he has none of the facts.

Next, can you please enlighten all of the posters of what would occur, if the Command found out that 1/4 of their cadets had a house party with underage drinking, even if campus police were not called

 

[Aglahad]

I find the possible use of Flunitrazepam or maybe even Ketamine in this situation as a pretty big stretch. These types of drugs are apparently used in only about 1% of rapes. "Analysis of urine samples in cases of alleged sexual assault case history". Benzodiazepines and GHB: 127–144". From a pharmaceutical perspective the chance of a cadet actually coming upon these potent opioid receptor binders/benzos is very low. I am not saying they are impossible to get , but they are generally prescribe in an in-patient setting (especially with Ketamine).

I feel that college males are often unfairly stamped guilty when situations like these arise. It is important to realize that this situation seems foggy at best. From what the OP has said it seems there was some inappropriate touching and alcohol in excess. Besides that, who can really discern what happened? (it seemed the male apologized as well). As the professional lawyers have already stated, perhaps this can be taken as a learning situation and move on.

PIMA-My school's educational policy is similar, if a woman (not man) has had 1 drink her judgement making is altered and thus any sexual act after that one drink is considered assault. We had an incident (even thought he guy was innocent) in our batt so the officials came down one PT session to remind us of their stance.

Lizzy-As for "teaching" the guy a lesson for something he might not even have done...that would be called battery

 

[aglages]

My MS 1 son told me that the mandatory "college life" lecture he had to attend simply said, "if somebody is drunk, having sex with her will be automatically considered a sexual assault by the university administration and be a ground for expulsion"

Does this work the other way for guys also? If a guy is drunk is it sexual assault if a girl has sex with him? What if they are both drunk? What if a guy has sex with another guy and only one is drunk....which is sexually assaulting the other? How about two girls?

College kids are supposed to be inquisitive. I would be amazed if none of these questions/scenarios came up during your son's lecture. If not, I'm sure an attorney representing somebody charged under this "policy" would have some questions.

 

[Aglahad]

Does this work the other way for guys also? If a guy is drunk is it sexual assault if a girl has sex with him? What if they are both drunk? What if a guy has sex with another guy and only one is drunk....which is sexually assaulting the other? How about two girls?

College kids are supposed to be inquisitive. I would be amazed if none of these questions/scenarios came up during your son's lecture. If not, I'm sure an attorney representing somebody charged under this "policy" would have some questions.

We had the same talk, the lecturer was actually asked a question about guys...the question was kind of shrugged off with a stepped around to the original point acknowledgment.

 

[aglages]

We had the same talk, the lecturer was actually asked a question about guys...the question was kind of shrugged off with a stepped around to the original point acknowledgment.

Thanks. Interesting that drunk drivers are held responsible for their decisions but drunk girls are not.

 

[Marist College ROTC]

Marist,

Next, can you please enlighten all of the posters of what would occur, if the Command found out that 1/4 of their cadets had a house party with underage drinking, even if campus police were not called?

This is how it was handled in previous cases when cadets have gotten into trouble (alcohol in their rooms when under 21, parking tickets, excessive noise coming from their rooms) with the campus but not with police:

First offense: Counseled in writing
Second offense: Suspension of scholarship benefits
Third offense: Recommendation for disenrollment

Admitting to being at a party without admitting to consumption would probably result in no action being taken.

 

[breadcrumbs]

please explain why you think the title of the post is unproductive? What about the title of the post bothers you?

How about adding "Alleged" for starters. Title indicates a person is guilty.
She said/He said. Lives and reputations have been shattered as a result of accusations. Duke lax anyone? Thanks to the JD's for adding to the discussion.

 

[dunninla]

please explain why you think the title of the post is unproductive?

The title states there was a rape. This is unproductive because the female cadet in this incident does not know if she was raped, or even if she was fondled, because of her condition of being drunk, drugged, asleep, or a combination of the three.

She said/He said.

disagreeing with the post immediately above this, this is NOT a case of he said, she said. It is a case of she thinks something happened, but isn't sure exactly what, but it must have been SOMETHING b/c the male cadet apologized for "what happened", whatever What was.

 

[dunninla]

Marist,

At the Academies there is an Honor Code. Is there such a thing in ROTC programs?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Consent cannot be given by someone under the influence, per the UCMJ.

 

[mariner116]

My advice would be to report nothing unless the accuser is 100% sure of what happenned, which does not seem to be the case.

I'll illustrate this point with a recap of an incident that happened at my daughter's college last year (following this incident there was another similar situation).

The accuser said she went to a party, met a guy, had some drinks and woke up in the early morning naked in a bedroom. She accused the guy she had been talking to of raping her.

The accused said he met the girl at the party, they mutually agreed to go to the bedroom, undressed each other, had intimate relations and fell asleep. He awoke later and left the room.

There was great publicity over this accusation. What did the investigation find? Both the people involved attended the party willingly. The two were observed talking to each other and then involved in intimate physical contact at the party. The two were observed going to the bedroom together; no sign of cooersion or force was observed.

No one will know what happened when the two were alone. The key point is that the accuser was so drunk she had no recollection of her behavior during most of the evening. Most evidence pointed toward a consensual encounter, which supported the statements made by the accused. No charges were filed. The accuser was not evil, she simply did not have an accurate memory of what had occured and what she had done.

Both the accuser and the accused will carry this with them a long time.

So, my advice is that if the accuser cannot recall what happened she should not accuse anyone of a crime or misconduct.

 

[Jcleppe]

Consent cannot be given by someone under the influence, per the UCMJ.

While the above is correct per UCMJ I have one question.

How is it handled within the UCMJ when both persons involved are equally under the influence.

Basically when both people are equally drunk which person is responsible for consent .

 

[pennak]

Generally, those that repeat or publicize a defamation are as libel in tort as the initial proponent of the defamation. No doubt that a false charge of rape is defaming. Changing it to "alleged" is probably a good idea. But FWIW, I don't see any defamation on this thread as no one has been named or accused and I, at least, did not see any identifying information sufficient to allow discovery of a name of a person who could claim that they have been falsely accused. I have followed this thread (I have a son at VMI in NROTC and a 13 year od daughter who may go there some day). The general discussion of the issue raised and the expression of opinion is well within the bounds. I'd rest easy.