Alleged Rape by cadet at college party

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Jcleppe said:
While the above is correct per UCMJ I have one question.

How is it handled within the UCMJ when both persons involved are equally under the influence.

Basically when both people are equally drunk which person is responsible for consent .
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Great law school exam question. Can't speak to the UCMJ, as I have not researched that point. In the civilian world, life is unfair. As a practical matter, the only person remotely likely to face charges would be the male.
 
Jcleppe said:
While the above is correct per UCMJ I have one question.

How is it handled within the UCMJ when both persons involved are equally under the influence.

Basically when both people are equally drunk which person is responsible for consent .
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I would also like to know the general state of mind of the young man in question. Perhaps a young man who apologized when sobered up the next a.m. truly feels remorse and instead of being a raging sexual predator is simply another 18 year old kid who doesn't typically imbibe(yes, these boys do exist) and also learned an important lesson about letting alcohol cloud his judgement. Not making excuses for inappropriate behavior, just would hope if my DS ever drank himself stupid and ended up in bed with some equally drunken young woman that there would be some balance of judgement.

pennak said:
Generally, those that repeat or publicize a defamation are as libel in tort as the initial proponent of the defamation. No doubt that a false charge of rape is defaming. Changing it to "alleged" is probably a good idea. But FWIW, I don't see any defamation on this thread as no one has been named or accused and I, at least, did not see any identifying information sufficient to allow discovery of a name of a person who could claim that they have been falsely accused. I have followed this thread (I have a son at VMI in NROTC and a 13 year od daughter who may go there some day). The general discussion of the issue raised and the expression of opinion is well within the bounds. I'd rest easy.
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Thank you for reassuring all of us that we are not legally crossing any lines by discussing these issues. Parents of all high school and college age students need to take a very hard look at how well they've prepared their kiddos to handle personal safety issues, sexual contact issues and the use of drugs and or alcohol in excess. Candid conversations such as this thread can be of great help.
 
"I would also like to know the general state of mind of the young man in question. Perhaps a young man who apologized when sobered up the next a.m. truly feels remorse and instead of being a raging sexual predator is simply another 18 year old kid who doesn't typically imbibe(yes, these boys do exist) and also learned an important lesson about letting alcohol cloud his judgement. Not making excuses for inappropriate behavior, just would hope if my DS ever drank himself stupid and ended up in bed with some equally drunken young woman that there would be some balance of judgement."

That's the risk. And it is not insignificant. Assuming a complaining witness, the boy could be a heap of trouble, ala Duke Lax. You got to believe that even those kids were eventually found free of wrong doing (an out of control prosecutor), it cost their families huge sums to get there. Basically at that point, you are appealing to prosecutorial discretion and the complaining witness. One should *never* trust that the prosecutor will display "balanced judgment." Not his job. He's a prosecutory, not the judge or the jury. Doesn't mean that he will prosecute, as he has to decide on the proper allocation of his resources and make a judgment as to whether he can get a conviction. But, if you got a complaining witness (the girl) don't expect balance from the prosecutor. Kids do stupid things but after they are legal adults, there is much less play in the legal joints for forgiveness.
 
pennak said:
"I would also like to know the general state of mind of the young man in question. Perhaps a young man who apologized when sobered up the next a.m. truly feels remorse and instead of being a raging sexual predator is simply another 18 year old kid who doesn't typically imbibe(yes, these boys do exist) and also learned an important lesson about letting alcohol cloud his judgement. Not making excuses for inappropriate behavior, just would hope if my DS ever drank himself stupid and ended up in bed with some equally drunken young woman that there would be some balance of judgement."

That's the risk. And it is not insignificant. Assuming a complaining witness, the boy could be a heap of trouble, ala Duke Lax. You got to believe that even those kids were eventually found free of wrong doing (an out of control prosecutor), it cost their families huge sums to get there. Basically at that point, you are appealing to prosecutorial discretion and the complaining witness. One should *never* trust that the prosecutor will display "balanced judgment." Not his job. He's a prosecutory, not the judge or the jury. Doesn't mean that he will prosecute, as he has to decide on the proper allocation of his resources and make a judgment as to whether he can get a conviction. But, if you got a complaining witness (the girl) don't expect balance from the prosecutor. Kids do stupid things but after they are legal adults, there is much less play in the legal joints for forgiveness.
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Completely agree that the reality is just as you've stated. A charge of sexual assault and/or rape will ruin a young man's life. The "balanced judgement" I was speaking of wasn't necessarily from the legal standpoint, but the other posters of this thread(and of course the "lurkers"). We all very quickly resorted to the sterotypical male abuser - female victim scenario, but there are two kids involved here and not every boy who gets drunk is prowling for a victim to assault. Sometimes he's just a dumb kid out of his element who does something stupid. It is not a legal excuse from responsibility or even that I'd approve of this behavior in my DS, its simply a call to remember this young man is someone's DS and may not be the sexual predator we've cast him as in our minds.
 
Ohio2015Parent said:
I would also like to know the general state of mind of the young man in question. Perhaps a young man who apologized when sobered up the next a.m. truly feels remorse and instead of being a raging sexual predator is simply another 18 year old kid who doesn't typically imbibe(yes, these boys do exist) and also learned an important lesson about letting alcohol cloud his judgement. Not making excuses for inappropriate behavior, just would hope if my DS ever drank himself stupid and ended up in bed with some equally drunken young woman that there would be some balance of judgement.





Ohio2015Parent said:
Completely agree that the reality is just as you've stated. A charge of sexual assault and/or rape will ruin a young man's life. The "balanced judgement" I was speaking of wasn't necessarily from the legal standpoint, but the other posters of this thread(and of course the "lurkers"). We all very quickly resorted to the sterotypical male abuser - female victim scenario, but there are two kids involved here and not every boy who gets drunk is prowling for a victim to assault. Sometimes he's just a dumb kid out of his element who does something stupid. It is not a legal excuse from responsibility or even that I'd approve of this behavior in my DS, its simply a call to remember this young man is someone's DS and may not be the sexual predator we've cast him as in our minds.
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On that point, I completely agree. I have a DS myself and while he is a very good kid, it is a fact of life that the brains of teens are not fully, physically developed and their judgment hardly foolproof for that reason alone, not to mention other factors. See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468
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Ohio2015Parent said:
We all very quickly resorted to the sterotypical male abuser - female victim scenario, but there are two kids involved here and not every boy who gets drunk is prowling for a victim to assault. Sometimes he's just a dumb kid out of his element who does something stupid. It is not a legal excuse from responsibility or even that I'd approve of this behavior in my DS, its simply a call to remember this young man is someone's DS and may not be the sexual predator we've cast him as in our minds.
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Agreed, and it's not unique to ROTC as just last month a 3/c Mid at USNA was convicted of a rape that occurred inside Bancroft Hall, and despite testimony that may have shown the female had an ulterior motive for the rape report (she was his former girlfriend), nevertheless the young man is now dismissed from the USNA, is in the brig serving a sentence, and will be labeled as a convicted felon with a dishonorable military discharge.

http://www.clarionledger.com/articl...n-stuns-family-ends-U-S-Naval-Academy-studies
 
Luigi59 said:
Agreed, and it's not unique to ROTC as just last month a 3/c Mid at USNA was convicted of a rape that occurred inside Bancroft Hall, and despite testimony that may have shown the female had an ulterior motive for the rape report (she was his former girlfriend), nevertheless the young man is now dismissed from the USNA, is in the brig serving a sentence, and will be labeled as a convicted felon with a dishonorable military discharge.

http://www.clarionledger.com/articl...n-stuns-family-ends-U-S-Naval-Academy-studies
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Jeez. What a horrible nightmare. And, note that this former mid is in *military* custody, because if you at the USNA, you enlist and this particular crime took place on a military facility between members of the military. The military criminal justice system is not known for being lenient.
 
You know - while Rape is a no-kidding real world issue , and the very definition of which can and does generate passionate feelings and opinions; this is probably not adding to the OP's original understanding and question. Even more so- it is not adding to anyone's uunderstand of the ROTC program and process. I'm therefore moving this to the off-topic forum so that the ROTC forum can get back to being about ROTC.
 
Luigi59 said:
Agreed, and it's not unique to ROTC as just last month a 3/c Mid at USNA was convicted of a rape that occurred inside Bancroft Hall, and despite testimony that may have shown the female had an ulterior motive for the rape report (she was his former girlfriend), nevertheless the young man is now dismissed from the USNA, is in the brig serving a sentence, and will be labeled as a convicted felon with a dishonorable military discharge.

http://www.clarionledger.com/articl...n-stuns-family-ends-U-S-Naval-Academy-studies
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pennak said:
Jeez. What a horrible nightmare. And, note that this former mid is in *military* custody, because if you at the USNA, you enlist and this particular crime took place on a military facility between members of the military. The military criminal justice system is not known for being lenient.
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What a tangled web we weave when we practice to conceive.....A good point for continuing to encourage our children to wait until marriage and to avoid alcohol.
 
pennak said:
Generally, those that repeat or publicize a defamation are as libel in tort as the initial proponent of the defamation. No doubt that a false charge of rape is defaming. Changing it to "alleged" is probably a good idea. But FWIW, I don't see any defamation on this thread as no one has been named or accused and I, at least, did not see any identifying information sufficient to allow discovery of a name of a person who could claim that they have been falsely accused. I have followed this thread (I have a son at VMI in NROTC and a 13 year od daughter who may go there some day). The general discussion of the issue raised and the expression of opinion is well within the bounds. I'd rest easy.
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I can't get sucked into this discussion as I am presently experiencing serious work-related "bandwidth issues" (sorry folks for being quiet the last few weeks). I do want to say, though, that pennak has provided very sound advice (as usual) in the quote above. Of course, the moderators should shut down the thread if identifying information elevates this to the level that pennak suggests (as well as deleting the offending post that tied these "non-allegations" to a particular individual). This is not a case involving a "public official" where totally different defamation rules apply.
 
Ohio2015Parent said:
Aglages,

I apologize, my statement was more "in general" and perhaps not well thought out. I now look a little hypocritical for "sterotyping" the posters on the thread.:redface:
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No problem. Your point was still valid even if all of us weren't assuming the worse of this young man.
 
Lizzy said:
My daughter has a friend in ROTC who went to a party with mostly ROTC people. There was plenty of drinking at the party and her friend let a male cadet whom she apparently trusted fix her a few drinks. She then fell asleep on the couch and in the middle of the night this same boy removed her clothes and fondled her and maybe more, but she doesn't remember much. She sounds like she was drugged. I told my daughter to make sure her friend gets to the local rape counseling center this week and I told my daughter that her friend needs to report this. The girl is afraid to because she was drinking and she is underage. I guess she is up for a ROTC scholarship and is afraid of not getting it. I think it needs to be reported and this boy should be punished.

Does anyone with ROTC experience have any suggestions as to what she should do? I think that even though she was drinking, so were all of the other ROTC people there and that whatever trouble she would get into would be minor as to the boy's consequences.
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What a tragedy for this young woman.
It's important for all college students AND their parents to become familiar with the college's policies and resources available.
Nearly every college has policies concerning sexual assault and rape and resources available.

Hindsight is golden but she should have gone directly to the nearest emergency room. Many campus health centers are not open 24 hrs and cannot collect evidence. As some have said - she still needs an examination and testing. Parents - please educate your children on this procedure!!!

Even though it's too late to collect evidence this does not mean this young woman cannot ask for and receive help. This can be done confidentially and the decision to file a police report is hers to make.
Even so, it's important to know that who she tells can affect the confidentiality of her situation. Some college officials (faculty, RA's etc) are bound by law to report when they suspect abuse/assault.
Generally, counseling, health services and chaplains are folks who will maintain confidentiality and provide the resources and help this young woman needs to sort out her situation.

One needs the checks the college's policy but usually a victim may report an incident WITHOUT incurring any disciplinary action.

The victim in the OP is not in the military but for clarity sake - it's important to know the steps to take and options available.
Reporting sexual abuse/assault in the Military:
A Victim may make a Restricted Report. This allows the victim to receive counseling and health care without triggering an investigation.
Sexual response coordinators and victim advocates provide information needed for the victim to make the decision whether or not to report the action.
http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/content/what_to_do.cfm

Lastly - NO ONE should be telling this young women to forget what happened. She deserves to get counseling and proper health care treatment. She should NOT be relying on her peers for support to move through this emotionally scarring incident.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
She should NOT be relying on her peers for support to move through this emotionally scarring incident.
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If there was an "emotionally scarring incident". Fortunately she can't remember so that should hopefully make it easier for her to "forget".
 
I am not sure it does make it easier, because although she can't recollect the act, she is left with unanswered questions. Obviously, she knows her blouse was open, but now she is always left with the constant question of how?

It will leave her with was I drugged, or was I drunk and decided to unbutton it myself?

Doubt in place of certainty does not make it any easier to get through it emotionally. It will impact her as much regarding trust issues if she does not get therapy. She could become paranoid wherever she goes regarding being drugged. It can mentally paralyze her.

I am not trying to equate this example to her issues, but just to illustrate how we go nuts over simple things like missing keys. We will tear the house apart out of frustration looking for them, even though we have a spare set and no true harm is done. We don't say well I can't remember where I left, and it isn't a problem because I have a spare set.

Again, I am not trying to compare the scenarios, so please don't quote that and start saying I can't believe you said that. I said it only to illustrate that our minds will drive where our thoughts go as long as the issue is unresolved.
That is why she needs counseling, she needs to personally resolve it for herself. This is also why sometimes they do talk to friends without stating what she really wants to know.

I.E. Man, that was some party last night wasn't it?
~~~In other words...she is trying to pry out info from the friend like:
I know, I never saw you act that way before, how much did you drink?
or
I can't believe I saw you drink that much, did you get the spins?

These are 2 varied answers. One allows the person to believe maybe she didn't imbibe too much, but was drugged. The other is telling hew that they saw her getting incredibly drunk.
 
The OP states:

She then fell asleep on the couch and in the middle of the night this same boy removed her clothes and fondled her and maybe more, but she doesn't remember much.
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Does this not mean she awoke naked?????
 
The OP stated this:

A small number stayed and slept at the apartment after the party I guess to sober up before driving home the next day. The girl and boy in this case were the only ones in the room where it happened and that morning he apologized for his behavior. The girl's memory is too foggy to accurately report anything.
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However, here's the problem, what if he was apologizing not for sexual reasons, but because he made lewd or inappropriate comments? As the OP stated a small number stayed and slept at the apt. Assuming this boy lived at the apt., he could have excused himself, went to bed and had no clue that one of the small number of people staying were assaulting her.

His comment could have been innocent, but due to the lack of her memory she doesn't know if that happened.
She then fell asleep on the couch and in the middle of the night this same boy removed her clothes and fondled her and maybe more, but she doesn't remember much.
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I have another problem with this story. She fell asleep on the sofa, and a small number stayed overnight. This implies it happened in front of people, because rarely do college kids rent apts/houses with spare bedrooms. Traditionally those that stay crash on the floor and the sofas in living areas, not bedrooms. Both of our kids have apts or houses off campus. I can tell you even 4 people staying overnight would equate to walking over bodies around the LR. Remember even a 15 X 15 room with a TV, sofa, 2 beat up chairs and a coffee table leaves little room for movement. The only way to get away with having sex in that small space would be both were quiet due to awareness of zonked out people in the room. Take a measurement of your family room, I bet it is bigger than your kids LR, now add in 4, 5, 6 people passed out...how much room is left? What would be the chances that a sober person would risk somebody waking up just to have sex in a non-private area? Now ask yourself, what are the chances of 2 kids drunk, would risk it if at least 1 during the heat of the moment believed it was consensual? Go back and remember yourself at 18 with hormones running amuck before you answer. I bet you will say a sober guy wouldn't do it, but a drunk couple would.

Not saying he didn't take advantage of her, I am saying it makes it more likely IMPO, that she was drunk and not drugged. Again, wrong to take advantage of her, but if he too was drunk, and she can't say he was able to determine that she was not consenting, because if she wasn't I am sure every woman on this forum will say, NO would be shouted, and physical harm would occur, which would awake those in the house from even a semi-drunk woman.

That also means he had to drug her and hope she stayed a sleep long enough for everybody to crash. Which now brings me back to why did her friends leave her behind? If she was crashed already when the friends left, than the friends would be able to say "when we left everybody was zonked". Not saying that a roofie wasn't given to her, I am just saying it is possible that she imbibed too much.

Many studies have proven that women who believed they were drugged and reported it have found that only 1-3% have actually been drugged, the 97% simply imbibed too much.
 
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Another thought and please don't say I am blaming the victim. This gal may have a different problem adding to this. In the absence of "being drugged" I fear she may have had an alcoholic blackout. Many young women have blackout episodes very early in their drinking experiences. During the blackout period they may act unlike their usual selves and have no recollection of events. Or worse have snippets of memories and fill in the blanks incorrectly. Kind of a brownout? These women may be on the way to a serious drinking problem. Many women alcoholics report blackout drinking patterns right from the beginning of their experimentation with alcohol. This will only make similar consequences more likely to happen again in the future.
 
It sounds like the party that the victim attended was in a private home and not on a military base so I going to assume that the assault will be investigated by the local police. The fact that the victim was drinking and was underage will definately be brought up at trial by the defense and it will be a problem for the DA's office. The local police won't really care. The problem for the investigator is that the victim can't really testify about what happened to her. That is why she needs a sexual assualt exam and a blood test ASAP. The longer she waits the harder it is to prove and it becomes a case of "he said, she said." She did do the right thing by making an outcry statement to the OP. That will be needed at trial but physical evidence of an assault is crucial for a sucessful prosecution. It may come down to the suspect taking a polygraph to convince the DA's office to prosecute the case. I always tell victims, "GET A REPORT ON FILE." You may never know the long range complications of the assault and you can always decide not to prosecute at a later date.
 
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