Another football scandal.

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by scoutpilot, May 19, 2012.

  1. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/air-force-rb-asher-clark-173910238--ncaaf.html

    Navy first and now AF....seems as though all those winning seasons have come at the expense of some core values where recruiting is concerned...
     
  2. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    That's a rather low blow, Scout.

    That said, if he did drugs, no sympathy from me.
     
  3. Packer

    Packer Member

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  4. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Low blow? Two critical players for both teams have been let go for flagrant misconduct. What would you call that? Just a terrible coincidence?
     
  5. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    A blight on the institution. The question is, how many were athletes? Athletes tend to run together at SAs, so I'm going to guess he wasn't the lone wolf athlete involved.

    As far as USAFA is concerned, they may have some serious problems with their system. 31 cadets using drugs? 31? Are you kidding me? I'm sad that in an era of extreme competitiveness for SA slots, things like this are happening in such large numbers.
     
  6. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Agreed. There does seem to be an ongoing problem. Last year several were booted for drugs as well.

    .
     
  7. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    raimius, I concur.

    I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing the point of this post. Is it somehow that Navy and Air Force "cheated" their way to winning seasons because a MIDN resigned admist an honor investigation and a cadet was part of a drug ring?
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
  8. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Cheated? Absolutely not. Placed athletic success in too high regard to the detriment of other qualities? Yes.
     
  9. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    Exactly what I meant/thought with the quoted "cheated."

    My issue is you can make the same exact argument for any college or Service Academy, student-athlete or just student. Army, Navy, and Air Force have had their share. Do you think USMA is an exception to USNA/USAFA? If so, I'd disagree.
     
  10. mom3boys

    mom3boys Parent

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    This one makes me physically sick. Asher went to high school with my son. I am very sad to see this. I cannot imagine the grief and turmoil his family is feeling with these events.
     
  11. GoSox

    GoSox Member

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    I debated about posting in response, for a few reasons, including: (1) Scout is the Jedi Master of this forum and I like his stuff -- he always cuts through the BS and gives an active duty perspective; (2) he's a lot smarter than I am and drives a better vehicle to/at work; and (3) I actually agree with the big picture criticism that USNA's admin made some compromises (to honor and discipline) in the throes of the football success of the past few years.

    With all that said, the original post did, I think, have a bit of a "gotcha" tone. Maybe I'm naive, but my sense is that all of the service academies with Division I programs face the same constraints and, at times, the same issues (e.g. cadets/mids who are there for the sport and don't respect the institution or don't really value the pursuit of the commission). Maybe USMA really "does business differently" than USAFA and USNA, and only recruits athletes who are star students and never get into trouble, but I don't think that's likely to be the case.

    By way of one example, NAPS is often cited as a place to redshirt football/basketball/lacrosse players (true in large part). If you look at Army's football/basketball/lacrosse rosters, something like 60% of them went to USMAPS. By way of another example, I had a hazy recollection of hearing that the current star QB at Army was found guilty of an honor violation earlier in his career and allowed to stay (and play). The memory-booster that is Google confirmed this:
    http://militarytimes.com/blogs/afte...or-code-violation-expected-to-play-in-opener/

    If Army really is doing things differently -- for example, if the Honor Code produces a better attitude of integrity than the Honor Concept at USNA (which could be true for all I know) -- I'd be interested in hearing what they do and if it's been successful in producing a different and better culture. (I think their training of plebes is probably superior to Navy's system, for example.)
     
  12. DHinNH

    DHinNH USMA 1989

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    Neither situation (AF's Clark or Navy's Proctor) constitute a "football scandal".
     
  13. rkrosnar

    rkrosnar Member

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    Another football scandal

    Yet another young persons future down the tubes, because of lack of judgement and a black eye for another swrvice academy, very sad.

    RGK
     
  14. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    A jedi master? You, sir, are too kind. I hardly warrant that praise. I assure you that you drive a better car to work than I do. I'm sure you're doing better than a 2004 Hyundai Elantra.

    As for letting the Army QB stay, I don't know if I agree with that decision or not. I will say, though, that less egregious honor violations, when they occur early in a cadet's career, often result in honor mentorship and retention. That applies to athletes and non-athletes alike.

    In the case of the kid from Navy, according to his classmates, this was his 3rd honor violation. And the chickens only came home to roost after the final season was over? I can't say it's fishy for sure, but where there's smoke. I think over the past two or three years this forum alone has made it clear that Navy's house has been less than tidy where standards for athletes are concerned.

    I think USAFA has the bigger issue. And I'll have to respectfully disagree with DHinNH...I think star players being involved in military drug rings does constitute a scandal.
     
  15. GoSox

    GoSox Member

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    You, sir, are the sir given our respective ranks (I'm pretty sure, weren't you '01 or something?). And while my earth-bound wheels might be a little snazzier than your Elantra, I was thinking of your airborne mode of conveyance! Us infantry types get along on our dogs. But we love our close air support -- nobody has more guts than you rotor wing guys.

    I do think that the multiple chances on honor at Navy, whether they were for athletes or ordinary joes/janes, were detrimental to the honor concept and I guess at least I'd say it seems like they may be trying to clean things/toughen things up. It might have been easier to let the latest guy graduate without the publicity of "star QB kicked out" but they did the right thing even if later in the game than it should have been. And I don't disagree with you on the Army QB's situation -- plebes do dumb stuff and can be remediated.

    I'm pretty new to the forum -- back from deployment and kinda bored, I'm sure everyone can tell -- but I enjoy the virtual opportunity to pull up a barstool and get into a few thoughtful arguments without somebody saying "shut up ringknockers nobody cares!" :biggrin: I'm pretty certain I'd enjoy a real beer with you scout but a virtual one will have to do.
     
  16. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    '04, actually. Not quite as decrepit as you might think.
     
  17. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    GoSox,

    Ditto on the posts.

    Completely agree. I know many non-athlete MIDN that were given at least 3 chances (a fault of the chain of command).


    Overall, I'd have to say (based of what I have seen) is that our SA football coaches (to the utmost of THEIR ability) have done an excellent job of balancing football with the importance/mission of service academies. Specifically, I think what Coach Ellerson did with this year's Army spring football game is just one example that proves the above generalization.
     
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I agree with the spirit of this remark Scout, but I'm not sure where recruiting comes in. Was there an emphasis on winning? No doubt, as there is in all college sports. But the cadet made his own decisions. I don't know how you foresee that while recruiting unless there is already signs of drug use. I don't know the particulars of that in this case. Can you expand on why you ding recruiting?
     
  19. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    If the players involved were simple 3rd string or not even athletes, you'd hear very little of it. I.e. do u know any of the other 13 air force cadets? Probably not. But because air force and navy had star athletes involved, it became news. That's the media for you. You don't hear about the 10 dead in a drive by in Chicago, but u hear about travon and zimmerman when its possibly a racial story.

    So army is no different at all when it comes to honor issues, drugs, or anything else compared to navy or air force. And if army ever gets any star athletes and they do anything wrong, you'll hear about them too.
     
  20. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Being a "star athlete" at USAFA is like being a tall dwarf, so let's not go pretending that USAFA and USNA are blessed with "star" athletes in anything but the relative sense.
     

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