AP Scores, effect of getting low scores??

Bailey, and every other future cadet and applicant: working to what you believe are your own limitations is not sound advice. If that' is the extent to which you will work, you will have a very short career at USAFA. You will be pushed at every step, at BCT, at USAFA, at IFS, and most especially, at UPT (assuming pilot, since about half do go that route). To work only to what you believe are your limitations is a bad starting point.

What are you going to do at BCT when you've done the 150 pushups which you believe are your limits? Say, "Oh! No thank you! I'm at my daily limit, but please call me tomorrow when I'll be fresh and smiling." What will you do when it's lights out in Vandy at 10:30 and you still have 4 hours of homework? "I'm sorry Colonel, I didn't finish my work because the light went out and I was tired and I just thought it beyond my limit to do my homework by flashlight while sitting on the floor since I won't for any money sit on my bed (let alone sleep in it!)." How about at SERE? "Oh, gee, I simply can't go one more step without a power bar, since I'm past my limit."

As you can see, that is not an attitude which one should adopt and expect to succeed.

As far as AP, dual-enrollment, and other high level coursework: take as many as you can and do your absolute best. If Bailey got in with 4, God bless him/her. If you are in in No VA or NYC or COS... that's not getting you in unless you have some other remarkable hook. Maybe from South Dakota, maybe from Louisiana, maybe from Mississipi or Arkansas.
 
I just wanted to add one comment to a statement I saw in this thread. If it was already addressed, my apologies.

It was said that if an individual is lacking in sports in their extra curricular activities, that the academy would look closely at your CFA to see if you're physically fit. That is only partially true. The CFA is definitely designed to determine your fitness. Believe it not, sports in your extra curriculum is only looked at a small amount for physical fitness. What's the main reason the academy cares about sports, especially organized team sports? TEAMWORK.

Teamwork is one of the main attributes of the military. Individuals don't win battles, wars, operations, etc. the TEAM does. I posted on a number of occasions a post provided to universities by the NCAA. It listed more than 30 attributes. It showed why athletics is so important. Not to win championships. It spoke of integrity, teamwork, discipline, pushing your limits, learning from mistakes, taking orders, and the long list goes on.

Can the academy assume that if your involved with sports that you probably are physically fit? Yes. But if anything, the academy might overlook an average or below average CFA score if you were an athlete involved in multiple sports; vs someone who wasn't involved I. Sports at all but had a good CFA score. While one doesn't automatically equal the other, CFA is primarily fitness while sports is primarily TEAMWORK and all the other attributes involved in personal development. Don't for a second believe that if you aren't involved in sports that a stellar CFA can make up for that.

Don't get me wrong. There are some individuals who have received an appointment with little to no sports. But the academy looks at the whole candidate. Many of the attributes involved in sports that the academy looks for, they can find in an individual from other activities. But sports, especially organized team sports, can demonstrate so many attributes about a person all at once. Not saying you can't demonstrate those with numerous activities. But sports are so close to the military personality that it's a natural place to look. Definitely do your best on the CFA, but don't think for a second that it's a replacement for being involved in sports.
 
I think that we keep coming back to the same thing. Whole Candidate Score

Please take some time and use the search option here. Look for your state MoC nominations. Look at this years appointment thread and search stats there.
~ Off topic, but on topic, every year there is the what SAT score should we aim for to feel comfortable/safe? Flieger has given the best answer....800 on each section.
~~ The avg ACT for type 1 AFROTC is a best sitting of @31/32. Best sitting, no superscore. That should tell you how competitive academically your competition is in the nation.

It is also why posters are saying for USAFA a candidate from AK, may get an appointment with 5 APs, top 5% class rank, but no AFROTC scholarship. Meanwhile a candidate from GA may get an AFROTC scholarship, but no appointment and have 16 APs, top 2% class rank and same SAT/ACT
~ USAFA and AFROTC DO NOT TALK when it comes to offering anything.

I agree with fencer. Coming from a non-competitive state may be on par with only 4 APs, but I think/assume if you are from NY, CA, TX, FL, CO, VA that is just not going to fly unless you have a hook.

I also believe you should push yourself as much as you can, and then push it just a little more. 100% is great, but in the AF they expect 110%, and to them that might not even be 100% in their mind.

Every appointee/applicant should read Raimius's blog. He has a link under his signature. I know that what our DS went through during IFS and UPT it was on the mark regarding his daily life.
 
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Okay, I'm going to offer my perspective...
No one here knows Bailey except for Bailey. Whatever she did worked for her up to this point, and got her into the U.S. Air Force Academy- which is a huge accomplishment. If I have interpreted correctly, she is not saying that you shouldn't challenge yourself- but rather know what it is you can accomplish to the best of your abilities. In high school, I don't believe that this is an unrealistic perspective. When candidates come here, we do not expect them to be able to take on the world from day one- if that were the case and everyone were perfect, we wouldn't need Basic Cadet Training. But we do, and it is one of the first places that these young men and women realize that, wow, I am capable of doing much more than than I thought! Why is that? because they finally realize what it means to work as a team and push their limits.
I only took 5 AP classes. The highest score I got on the math portion of the ACT was a 26. I was on the JV tennis team in high school.
Sure, plenty of people would say that it wasn't enough to get into USAFA, that I hadn't worked hard enough, or that I didn't deserve an appointment. The fact is that they'd all be wrong. Granted, it took me an extra year to prove it, but I don't see that as a hindrance in my character or abilities.
It is easy to say from the outside looking in, "well you should really be doing this, this, and this. And if you don't, you're probably not going to be competitive. Sorry." But then again, how often has it been said on here that there is no magic formula when it comes to receiving an appointment? Does that not still ring true? The fact is that you don't have to take 10 AP classes, get a perfect ACT score, be a superstar athlete, AND volunteer with the children during your off time in order to receive an appointment. It is sometimes forgotten that these kids are exactly that; kids. Of course they are expected to be more mature and talented, but it's not like the only way into the Air Force Academy is by filling up all of your time making your resume look better. You should follow your passions and challenge yourself along the way. If USAFA believes that you have the potential to be a high quality officer, they will appoint you.
All you can do is your best. Sometimes your best isn't good enough, but that's okay. There is a place for everyone, and that place is not always the US Air Force Academy. But the point is that no one on a forum is in charge of determining that, and additionally, the only people who know Bailey's true work ethic and character are those close to her. When she and her classmates come here, cadre, instructors, and permanent party will determine if they meet the standard. Not the internet.
I hope this post helps in some way or another and shows a different perspective.
 
Thank you once again for these responses. Pima, I will start reading this blog and continue researching the WCS and nomination process. Christcorp, what you said is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. So basically the CFA is the primary way that the Academy evaluates a candidate's fitness level, and although sports can shed a light on that, measuring a candidate's fitness level is not the primary factor looked at. The academy looks at sports in the same section as other extracurricular activities to gauge personal qualities, such as teamwork (like you said). Is this an accurate statement?

So theoretically, while sports are a great way to show those personal development traits like you stated, is it a deal breaker to not have organized team sports, assuming the candidate has an otherwise-good WCS? I will be trying out for my school's cross country team and have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu since 8th grade. Do you have any advice for improving this part of my application? Or in other words, in the absence of lots of sports, what are some things you like to see in candidates to prove that they have what it takes? I have high up positions in AFJROTC, debate, NHS, and Beta, but is that enough?
 
Thank you once again for these responses. Pima, I will start reading this blog and continue researching the WCS and nomination process. Christcorp, what you said is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. So basically the CFA is the primary way that the Academy evaluates a candidate's fitness level, and although sports can shed a light on that, measuring a candidate's fitness level is not the primary factor looked at. The academy looks at sports in the same section as other extracurricular activities to gauge personal qualities, such as teamwork (like you said). Is this an accurate statement?

So theoretically, while sports are a great way to show those personal development traits like you stated, is it a deal breaker to not have organized team sports, assuming the candidate has an otherwise-good WCS? I will be trying out for my school's cross country team and have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu since 8th grade. Do you have any advice for improving this part of my application? Or in other words, in the absence of lots of sports, what are some things you like to see in candidates to prove that they have what it takes? I have high up positions in AFJROTC, debate, NHS, and Beta, but is that enough?

Our DS did not play a HS sport but was very active on the debate team (manager then president) plus held other leadership roles in volunteering. I believe it has been said many times that you are better off doing something you enjoy and doing it very well (taking on leadership roles) vs. trying to do many things as just a participant to "pad" your resume.
 
Very true. I meant in no way to pad a resume.

But again we come back to one question that nobody can answer. WCS and how competitive their state is. In VA, many MoCs do principal, and many are 2nd time applicants.

We need to give hope, but we also need to illustrate that there are alot of aspects into the equation when it comes to an appointment.
~ FWIW, many candidates from those competitive states get picked up off the pool list. Their WCS is why.
 
There are schools in this country that don't offer AP exams...those candidates are not penalized.

Don't sweat the AP's...nail your grades, SAT/ACT, and everything else!!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
My kids didn't go to school so high school sports were out. I'll let you guess at which sport they excelled.
 
Flieger beat me to my response. I come from wyoming. We still have towns that have schools that are totally K-12. Graduating senior class is around 10. No AP type classes.

As for not doing sports being a deal breaker. The simplest way to put this is..... Nothing is a deal breaker. Alright, that's not totally true either. Doing 5 years for selling Meth probably is a deal breaker. But on the application, nothing is a deal breaker. Pima said it 1,527 times. It's the whole candidate. But having said that, you can't try and compare each candidate. It's too complicated and you don't know the variables. In other words, you can't say that the person who does sports and other activities with such and such application equals the individual who doesn't do sports but did JrRotc or scouts. The academy will determine. And remember, you are competing first against individuals in your district or state, and then against individuals nationally. None of us here know your competition.

I will tell you one very important and deciding factor when the academy chooses. Availability. What was available and what did you do with it. What was the highest level of academics available and what did you take. What sports and activities were available and what did you participate in. If AP was available and you took very few, vs if none or very few were available but you took community colleges dual enrollment classes. Maybe no high school sports but you were involved in city league or church team. They want to see that you were involved and successfully completed the most challenging classes and activities available to you.
 
Christcorp: "What was available and what did you do with it."

The BEST advice for anyone trying to get into a service academy, civilian college, scholarships, a good job, a promotion, start a business, etc. etc.
 
Okay, I'm going to offer my perspective...
No one here knows Bailey except for Bailey. Whatever she did worked for her up to this point, and got her into the U.S. Air Force Academy- which is a huge accomplishment. If I have interpreted correctly, she is not saying that you shouldn't challenge yourself- but rather know what it is you can accomplish to the best of your abilities. In high school, I don't believe that this is an unrealistic perspective. When candidates come here, we do not expect them to be able to take on the world from day one- if that were the case and everyone were perfect, we wouldn't need Basic Cadet Training. But we do, and it is one of the first places that these young men and women realize that, wow, I am capable of doing much more than than I thought! Why is that? because they finally realize what it means to work as a team and push their limits.
I only took 5 AP classes. The highest score I got on the math portion of the ACT was a 26. I was on the JV tennis team in high school.
Sure, plenty of people would say that it wasn't enough to get into USAFA, that I hadn't worked hard enough, or that I didn't deserve an appointment. The fact is that they'd all be wrong. Granted, it took me an extra year to prove it, but I don't see that as a hindrance in my character or abilities.
It is easy to say from the outside looking in, "well you should really be doing this, this, and this. And if you don't, you're probably not going to be competitive. Sorry." But then again, how often has it been said on here that there is no magic formula when it comes to receiving an appointment? Does that not still ring true? The fact is that you don't have to take 10 AP classes, get a perfect ACT score, be a superstar athlete, AND volunteer with the children during your off time in order to receive an appointment. It is sometimes forgotten that these kids are exactly that; kids. Of course they are expected to be more mature and talented, but it's not like the only way into the Air Force Academy is by filling up all of your time making your resume look better. You should follow your passions and challenge yourself along the way. If USAFA believes that you have the potential to be a high quality officer, they will appoint you.
All you can do is your best. Sometimes your best isn't good enough, but that's okay. There is a place for everyone, and that place is not always the US Air Force Academy. But the point is that no one on a forum is in charge of determining that, and additionally, the only people who know Bailey's true work ethic and character are those close to her. When she and her classmates come here, cadre, instructors, and permanent party will determine if they meet the standard. Not the internet.
I hope this post helps in some way or another and shows a different perspective.
Haley, Thank you so much! Your encouragement helped alot.

To the others, in no way was I saying you should ever lie down and give up. But at the same time, we need to be smart. If I had taken 13 AP classes, I would have gotten B's and possibly C's rather than straight "A"s and maybe not have made it into USAFA. As it was, I got straight "A"s up until this semester, and earned my appointment to USAFA. Also, I am from Colorado, and was also appointed to USMA, and received full ride AFROTC and NROTC scholarships. So I firmly believe that I earned my spot at USAFA and plan on continuing to do so during my four years there.
 
Haley, Thank you so much! Your encouragement helped alot.

To the others, in no way was I saying you should ever lie down and give up. But at the same time, we need to be smart. If I had taken 13 AP classes, I would have gotten B's and possibly C's rather than straight "A"s and maybe not have made it into USAFA. As it was, I got straight "A"s up until this semester, and earned my appointment to USAFA. Also, I am from Colorado, and was also appointed to USMA, and received full ride AFROTC and NROTC scholarships. So I firmly believe that I earned my spot at USAFA and plan on continuing to do so during my four years there.

Bailey, No one can argue with your results! Job well done.
 
You need to understand the WCS. It takes a while to get it, but here is my point of view. I am sure others will chime in.

1. There are thousands of HSs in the nation. Your cgpa is strong, but USAFA has their own algorithm. Don't assume that it will be 4.0 for them. DSs school was a 7 point scale, and his portal jumped higher by their standard than his HS transcript.
~ There are some that will see it drop, and some will see it stay the same.
2. They look at the school profile. Taking the most rigorous course curriculum will matter. You can have a 4.0, but your ranking matters too. If they offer 16 APs and you took only 4, that can hurt. If your ranking is top 15%, and 0% go Ivy than it can hurt you compared to the candidate that is ranked 20% AND 25% go Ivy.
~ The latter is saying that they don't award As like candy during Halloween.
3. You have not informed us of your SAT/ACT scores. Did you take the PSAT? Are you an NMSF? They can accept a bad test day, if the other aspects offset that test. IE you scored 34 on your M and S ACT.

WCS stands for Whole Candidate Score. Being academically smart does not necessarily equate intio an appointment, because 40% of that score is not academic. Sports, leadership, ECs, etc matter to them because it shows to them you can juggle everything while maintaining a high academic standard.
~ The CFA is bust 1 aspect and you bust the entire thing.
~ DoDMERB can be a goat rope for many.

Finally, we don't know what state you are from. This maybe an issue for competitive states like CO, TX, VA, and not so much for Iowa, Idaho or Montana.

Move forward, and while you do be smart and apply for the AFROTC scholarship. AFROTC scholarship boards do not talk to USAFA appointment boards. AFROTC selects nationally, USAFA is geocentric at 1st (state). It is not uncommon to get none, one or both.

You stated that Texas is considered a competitive state. I live in Texas and know of very few other candidates in my area. Can you please describe what would make a state deemed competitive
 
As an overall state, it is very competitive. There are many military facilities and people are very pro military. So, there are a lot of individuals applying to the academy. Especially for senator nominations being there's only 2 senators and each can normally only offer 10 nominations.

But it is true that maybe in your district there are few applicants, and therefor, getting your district's congress persons nomination may not be difficult. the same can be said for California. If you are in the San Diego area, there are a lot of individuals interested in the academies. They are exposed to a lot of military. They could also be seen as more conservative. Compared say to the San Francisco area where not as many individuals apply.
 
As an overall state, it is very competitive. There are many military facilities and people are very pro military. So, there are a lot of individuals applying to the academy. Especially for senator nominations being there's only 2 senators and each can normally only offer 10 nominations.

But it is true that maybe in your district there are few applicants, and therefor, getting your district's congress persons nomination may not be difficult. the same can be said for California. If you are in the San Diego area, there are a lot of individuals interested in the academies. They are exposed to a lot of military. They could also be seen as more conservative. Compared say to the San Francisco area where not as many individuals apply.
So coming from a competitive state, does it decrease your chances at all at receiving an appointment
 
So coming from a competitive state, does it decrease your chances at all at receiving an appointment

I know that you can't help but worry about something like this but don't focus on what people think your chances are in the region you live in. You'll never get a satisfying answer to that question.

Also if I was to answer yes would that make you not apply? It shouldn't because not applying will sink your chance to zero.

Focus on putting the best application that you can forward (e.g. Great GPA, high SAT and ACT scores, leadership, sports, volunteering, job, etc.). those are the things you can control. The only way to change if you're in a competitive region is by moving to a place that no one is applying. Be proud of what you did and at the end of the day stand tall knowing that you did everything you could. You'll be a lot happier with the results no matter how things turn out.
 
Competition is a funny thing. You've got to have the confidence to Be the Competition, not fear the competition.

If you apply, and do your very best, you will have some chance. If you do not apply and/or if you do not do your absolute best, you have no chance. Yes, Texas is a competitive state... but people do gain nominations from Texas (and California, and NY, and VA, and every other "competitive" state) every single year, without fail.
 
And just a little reminder: EVERYTHING at USAFA (and USMA, and USNA, and USCGA, and USMMA) is a competition. EVERYTHING.
 
The whole topic is relative. The appointment process is a multi level process. Nominations. You can't under any circumstance, receive an appointment if you don't have a nomination. Getting a nomination can be very competitive. We are talking the traditional senator and representative nomination. If you come from a state and/or district in the state that has a lot of interest in the military and academies, it could be very competitive. Representative represent pretty much the same amount of people all over the country. Around the 600,000 mark. If there much more than that, you'll have 2 districts and so on. That's why California has 54 or so representatives and districts and wyoming only has one. But if you're in certain districts in California, it isn't as difficult to get a representator's nomination as it is in wyoming or a different district in California.

Senators on the other hand is set at 2 per state. So the more populated states have a more competitive issue receiving a senators nomination vs a low populated state.

After the nomination, the next variable is your educational opportunities and achievements. If you went to a small school with no AP or IB classes, you will need to work harder academically vs the kid who went to a school that had the full IB program and 20-30 AP classes. Maybe you have to take dual enrolled community college classes or some online classes to make you more competitive.

Of course, that's why your act and sat scores are so important. They are the great equalizer. The kid from Podunk Chugwater wyoming; yes that town exists; can overcome having no decent classes if they get a 32-34 ACT score across the board. Just like the kid with all A's in AP classes can overcome a 27 ACT across the board to stay competitive.

But the academy isn't stupid. They understand you don't necessarily have a choice on your academic opportunities or many other things. So they look at what you did have available and what you did with it. You and your application are what makes you competitive or not. Not you state, district, or school.
 
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