Appointments per Senator

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by HopefulMid19, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. HopefulMid19

    HopefulMid19 Member

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    Are Senators able to have more than one nominated applicant go to a single service academy each year?
     
  2. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yes!
    Each MOC (House and Senate) may have no more than 5 "designated appointees" at any academy at any one time. HOWEVER...they may nominate up to 10 folks per opening.
    True story...our senior senator (since retired) once nominated 20 folks for the 2 openings he was going fill. After all was said and done, 2 of the 20 were appointed, as the law requires.

    HOWEVER...12 of his other nominees were selected from the "qualified alternates" pool! So he actually had 14 appointments in one cycle!!

    He wrote all his ALO's a very nice thank you letter for their records!

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  3. HopefulMid19

    HopefulMid19 Member

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    Do you know how many qualified alternates are usually put into the national pool and how many open nominations are available for those alternates?
     
  4. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    ALL qualified alternates go into a "pool." As to how many appointments are available; that will depend upon how many of the "mandated by law" appointments are to be filled. Once all of those are gone, then whatever the academy needs to bring the class up to full strength will come from the qualified alternates.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  5. USNAhopeful88

    USNAhopeful88 Member

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    Do you know how many qualified applicants go into the pool to start with? Is it roughly 500-1000?


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  6. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    Every qualified candidate that is NOT selected to fill a "mandated by law appointment" goes into the pool. If in a "typical cycle" there are 3500 fully qualified candidates...and all 535 members of Congress (house and senate) have one mandated slot to fill...and the Presidential category has a full 100 filled...that's 635 right there; leaving approximately 2800+ for the pool. There are a few other categories that have small numbers attached. The bottom line is that typically 40-50% of the incoming class comes from the "pool."

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  7. mom3boys

    mom3boys Parent

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    I would like to have FFRs or 845Something address this. I hear it so often, and I always cringe, as I am 99% sure it's untrue. There's always someone who says "my kid got in form MOC X in another state because he didn't use his allotment." Where is this coming from? How do we explain to them that is not how it works, when they are so sure that is how their kid got in...someone is feeding them this info. That never happens, right?
     
  8. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I think there are many reasons this confusion exists.

    1. USMMA not USMA

    I think most people do not know of the existence of USMMA and they just hear the M and believe they are the same. USMMA allows candidates to apply to every Congressmen in their state. If there are 11 of them in your state you can apply and be appointed by anyone of those 11, regardless where you live.

    2. Some MOCs do not submit slates. Charles Rangel quickly comes to mind, however, so people assume that because there are 535 MOCs that all 535 are charged. Thisis not true. Charging is very specific. They just assume doing the math 535 off the top will be charged. Thus, if Rangel does not submit a slate and you are from NY people assume it must be from another MOC.

    3. It is possible for some to be eligible to apply to an MOC that is not in the state they are currently residing.

    Bullet was ADAF when DS was applying. He legally was a resident of AK. We owned a home in NC, and because of NC state laws, I had to get a license in NC, whereas, Bullet did not. DS was eligible to apply for a nom. from either state, but not both since we each were legal residents of different states.

    Again, if you don't understand the residency aspect completely than a stranger could assume that he was nominated from any state.

    4. The national pool.

    If you look at the list going on USAFA currently they post their nomination source, but honestly unless they find out from the MOC directly they don't know who actually is being charged. They might already have come out of the pool.

    Look at No VA, it is not uncommon for 8 of the 10 get appointed. Some during the early part, because their WCS maybe so high up they know from historical data that they will eventually get picked up.

    It takes quite some time to understand the process, especially when it comes to charging.
     
  9. USNAhopeful88

    USNAhopeful88 Member

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    Thank you for clearing some of that up, I had no idea you can apply to all congressman for USMMA. I suppose that only can help your chances of getting a nom


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  10. NAVYHOPEFUL2019

    NAVYHOPEFUL2019 Member

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    When USNA chooses applicants from the national pool, is geography still a factor or is it based on their ranking from the wcs? My thoughts are MOC slates covers the geography portion. Sorry if this has been answered before.
     
  11. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    My understanding is that it's solely WCS. I suppose there may be some other class composition factors but I really don't think geography is one of them as that's already been addressed.
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    That is why I think many people get confused. Even though Bullet was ADAF for 20 years I never knew about USMMA until our DS1 was in HS. His friend applied and was appointed to USMMA. At first I thought DS said USMA, and later on I realized he said USMMA.

    If you look at threads here, many posters will say how their friends when informed of their child's appointment, they ask why aren't they going to college? They don't even realize that the SAs are colleges. Now imagine them trying to understand the charging process?!?
    It takes the average poster here several months before they understand the slate process (WCS/ Principal/Competitive and LOA). Explaining that 5 is the max an MOC can be charged and how the LOA candidate does not equate to being charged would make someones head spin that is not applying. Or how being charged to the Presidential/VP does not mean that they were the Presidents choice. How in essence, a VP is really there to give the SAs that one last chance to work the system if they want the candidate, but had no other way to get in.

    I find it best to just remain silent to the people that have no intention of entering this life. My best comparison to this is think about Chemistry taught in middle school. It is the basics. You would not explain it in AP or Organic terms to them. Those that are new to the system with no background are the middle school Chem class, learning the fundamentals. Those in the process are now in AP Chem....learning deeper aspects. Those that understand charging for appointments are now at the Organic level.

    Finally, look at it also this way. At the Pentagon every branch has an SA department. That office is basically a liaison between the SA and the Hill. The staff briefs the MOCs twice a year. Once in July after I day to coincide with the start of the nomination process. Informing each MOC how many charges they have available. The second time is in January prior to the slate closing date and the charging process.
    ~ I have been in USAFAs office. One room from floor to ceiling is just cards on all four walls. One wall is the charged wall, color coded for each year group. Another wall is the current year group charged. The other two walls are the slates submitted.
    ~~~ So, if Senator Ayottes staff calls at anytime, they can walk over to the wall and say Cadet Jones, Smith and Blue are currently charged to you. Cadet Jones will commission this year. That means next year you will have 3 slates available.
    ~~~ If Cong. Boehner calls Jan. 15th, because for whatever reason they want to add on another candidate....IE candidate Robertson had decided to spread the wealth between their 3 MOCs, and because of that he got two to USNA, one to USMA, none to USAFA, thus they contact his staff to see if they could change it to USAFA. The staff may decide to call that office in the Pentagon and see how many charges are available compared to how many slates they submitted. The office may say you submitted 2 slates, but have 3 charges available. Depending on the caliber of the candidate they may say okay, I am going to submit them as my third slate. The candidate being the only on the slate would now get appointed.
    ~~~~ Now come July, Boehner could again have 2 or more available next year because the C1C graduated in May. A C4C decided that USAFA was not for them after their first year, and the appointed cadet at I day was medically turned back.

    Like I said, the longer you are here, the more you can see this is a very intricate process and why manyMOCs have a staff member that is dedicated to SAs. Look at states like VA, CA, MD, TX, NY where they do not duplicate nominations and some may have 700+ applicants to weed through plus working with the MOCs. The Senators staff in those states have to talk to each Congressional district to cross reference their slates against their own and the other Senator. VA has 11 congressional districts, assume 4 have 2 slates. That is 150 candidates they are cross referencing. Than they have to talk the other Senator to make sure their names don't duplicate. Add in interviews, and your brain is probably imploding.
    ~ VA is easy. If Google is correct CA has 53 congressional distrocts, TX has 36, NY has 27.
     
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    From a national pool perspective, than it is the WCS, geography does not matter regarding appointments. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

    That being said it may appear more are appointed from MD and VA, but what needs to be understood is that the academically, at least for No. VA (1 hour away), their schools (Fairfax) are insanely competitive. Fairfax county school budget is bigger than the bottom 8 states in the nation. The avg SAT best sitting is 1300+. Best sitting, not super score. Their HSs are always listed in USNWR, Fortune, Money, Time, etc. Many of their parents have some type of connection to the military (AD, retired, Defense Contractor, GS) and have spent years preparing for this path, compared to a kid from Butte, MT. Nothing against their school system,just saying you need to dig deeper than just making an assumption because 8 out of the 10 on the MD/VA slate got an appointed due to geography. A lot has to do with the school system and the school profile.
    ~ Valedictorian, and NHS is one thing. There are @2000 HS in the nation. Attending a HS where 25% go Ivy and you are in the top 15% says something more to them compared to a HS candidate that is top 15% and 1% go Ivy from a school rigor perspective. That top 15% candidate in a 25% Ivy selection states to them that the school doesn't hand our As like candy on Halloween. Whereas, the top 15% candidate that has only 1% go Ivy (their equivalent) says something different.

    It is not my intention to divert this thread, however since we are talking geographical aspects, for lurkers and posters class of USNA or any SA 2020, I think it is important to understand the difference between Plan B (ROTC scholarship) and SAs regarding the first hurdle.

    SAs are geographical from minute one. Your Congressional and Senatorial district matters in the very beginning. You start from the small pool...MOC {Cong/Sen. To National). Your intended major is not a player in the equation. For AF/NROTC your intended major matters regarding the scholarship. There are other specific answers that come in to play....AFROTC does not super score, A/NROTC does. AF and NROTC give 80-85%+ of scholarships to STEM majors. AFROTC doesn't tie the scholarship to the college, AR/NROTC does. NROTC meets a lot more than any branch.

    For every ROTC scholarship offered Geographical location matters naught! They operate in the opposite. They couldn't care less if the 1000 scholarships offered were offered only to GA residents. They are looking at a national pool, they do not spread the wealth across the nation. Highest WCS wins, just like the SAs.

    I don't know about USMA and USNA, but for USAFA and AFROTC, those boards do not talk. USAFA meets in CO. And AFROTC meets in Maxwell Alabama. USAFA does not know AFROTC scholarship results, and AFROTC does not USAFA appointment results. There are many candidates that get a AFROTC scholarship, no appointment and many that get USAFA appointment and no scholarship.

    Why? Because in my personal pea brain opinion, the way the system works from a finesse perspective.

    If you look at the ROTC scholarship awards, it is the exact same amount statistically as an appointment 16-18%.

    I am no way, shape or form saying they are comparable regarding their academics or lifestyle for the 4 years at an SA or in ROTC.
    ~~ You can't compare it. An SA cadet/mid has a much different life because it is 24/7 while school is in session, and typically will have their breaks Dilled with other training opportunities, that ROTC kids don't.

    I am just saying many posters will get a TWE from their perspective ROTC boards and get a BFE from the SA. Conversely, many posters will get a BFE and TWE dfrom ROTC.

    It all comes down to filling the right squares.
    ~ Valedictorian from MOC Timbucktoo may equate to an appointment. However that valedictorian wants to major in underwater basketweaving will result in no scholarship.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
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  14. Falcon A

    Falcon A Member

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    OK -- now it's time to make this thread a "sticky"! ;)
     
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  15. Swabthedecks

    Swabthedecks Member

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    I don't know if your fingers have recovered from your posts here but let me ask you this - don't you think that the WCS is not the only metric what about sex, race and athletics (although this is prob included of the WCS)? and for those who want to immediately discount these factors how else would one explain the difference in the % of females at USCGA than the others SA? and btw I am from VA 11 and my DS is currently 3rd class AFA.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Sure those things can have an impact. Yet, the impact could be from a different aspect. For example, one of fencers twin was recruited for fencing by the AFA, and offered an LOA. All that twin needed was a nomination, as long as he was 3 Q, his WCS really didn't matter except from a charging perspective. The other twin needed his WCS to win the appointment.

    They also look for diversity, USAFA offers visits under their diversity program. Now again if they offer an LOA to the diversity candidate than they are in the same scenario as the recruited candidate with an LOA.

    A slate could have 9 candidates with LOAs and the MOC can than give the tenth a principal. All 10 would be appointed.
     
  17. alaska66

    alaska66 CGA Admissions Partner

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    Just want to add something to the question on USCGA. Admissions is quite different at CGA since it does not require a nomination and it a national merit based selection. I'm sure the factors you listed do come into play (sex, race and athletics), however, I will throw this idea out to you as to why the percent of women is high at CGA...it's the mission. Both my DDs had appointments (one a recruited athlete) to other SAs but their ultimate decision to attend CGA was because of the mission they would have upon graduation. Perhaps USCGA just appeals to more females at the outset. Just a thought.
     
  18. Swabthedecks

    Swabthedecks Member

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    If the mission is more attractive to females then maybe more female applicants to the school but not sure how that equates to a significantly higher percentage of appointments- it may account for some but not all the delta. Furthermore, has the mission change in 20 years or so such that it was once not attractive, but now is? The fact that no nomination is require should not be a factor since nominations are not gender specific rather are merit based.
     
  19. alaska66

    alaska66 CGA Admissions Partner

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    I don't believe it is because the mission has changed in 20 years or so, as it is that society has changed. Look at any university over the past 20-30 year and you will see an increase of females in attendance over that time period. Some universities today are hovering around 60% females. I also believe that during that time period more females became aware of, and thus interested in, service academies. The same holds true for other careers, such as medical school where, since the '70s, the number of female applicants has risen from 25% to 50%.

    As society became more accepting of females in the military, more females began considering that career. When viewing the mission of all the services, females may be more drawn to the humanitarian and environmental mission that the USCGA provides. Females over the past 20 years or so have been expected to excel more in the classroom and on the athletic fields than the previous generation, thus they have become more competitive in their applications to service academies. If there are more female applicants that are competitive, then there will be more female appointments.

    As for USCGA and the nomination process at other SAs, I do believe it is a factor. Since USCGA does not require a nomination, and has no regard to geographical location, CGA can (theoretically) take the top 250 or so applicants based on merit. If the top 250 candidates were female, then (theoretically) the class could be all female. Of course this is not reality, and it seems to work itself out to where females represent 30% of the corp. Regarding other SAs that are dependent on the nomination system, there may be congressional districts that have no female applicants for a specific SA in that district. However, once the appointments go to the NWL, they then return back to a national selection similar to USCGA. Even with the nomination process, USNA had 25% female in the Class of 2018, USMA had almost 22%, USAFA is around 22%, and USMMA is 13%. Now if the NWL statistics were available for female percent perhaps the comparison could be made to USCGA selection and a more similar percent would be produced.

    On the subject of whether those elements (sex, ethnicity, athletics) should play a role have been debated ad nauseam on these forums. The selection process at SAs is what it is, for better or worse. Until changes are demanded at the top, the system will remain as it is.
     
  20. SpadGuy

    SpadGuy Member

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