Army Football in the news

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by Rocko, Oct 25, 2014.

  1. Rocko

    Rocko Member

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  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    And who says the Academies are not like a traditional university, when it comes to football that is.

    I was surprised to see that it is considered a "Minor" infraction by the NCAA, giving alcohol to minor recruits, and cash from boosters?, I've seen schools lose Bowl eligibility and scholarships over things similar to this.

    Wow, I read the full article linked from the above article. Sounds like quite a night.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  3. kaaron

    kaaron Member

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    Recruited Athletes

    Do recruited athletes go through a different application process? Is their criteria for appointment more lenient? My son's friend has a friend who was offered a conditional offer from West Point. He has sub par GPA and ACT scores. Can anyone explain this?
     
  4. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Consider. The. Source.
     
  5. JMS

    JMS Member

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    I just read this myself. Wine, women, song to recruit football players, who would have thought!?
    It is really shameful that, after all this, they continue to post a losing record season after season.
     
  6. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I did get a chuckle when I saw the article was from Colorado Springs. Still, it sounds like the USMA confirmed the bulk of the issues.
     
  7. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    RIGHT?! You'd think with AF and Navy's records, the more scandal, the better the team! Army's gonna have to step up their game with accidental weed if they even want to compete.

    /sarcasmOff
     
  8. Dixieland

    Dixieland Member

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    Very disappointing. :thumbdown:
     
  9. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    Simple answer is all follow the same application process and criteria for appointment is "different" not lenient for recruited athletes. Many debates on how to account for athletic abilities against GPA and ACT scores.

    Some folks are for candidates with high GPA and ACT, some folks are for candidates with great leadership, and some folks are for athletic abilities.
     
  10. MedB

    MedB Parent

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    Some version of the D1 athletics at SAs debate comes up here repeatedly. And often times there are detailed facts shared that debunk many of the standing myths; not "bad behavior" gotcha articles but facts (independent studies, quotes from SA athletic insiders themselves, NCAA's own metrics, etc).

    * Prep schools aren't a redshirt factory - refuted
    * Recruited athletes graduate at same rate - refuted
    * Recruited athletes go into operational AFSCs at same rate - refuted
    * Admissions criteria/success expectations are identical for athletes - refuted
    * Prepster recruited athletes have same honors/discipline rate - refuted
    * D1 athletics at SAs are revenue positive - refuted

    So... Are D1 athletics central to the core mission of our SAs? Maybe. The ancillary benefits in terms of public relations, marketing, pride, etc are undoubtedly tremendous. But perhaps the debate should be held on the REAL cost/benefit basis instead of continuing to cling to myths.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  11. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    What is the core mission of our SAs? A simple answer is produce military officers. We tend to focus a lot on recruited athletes, but how about non recruited athletes? What is more complex answer to SAs accomplishing its mission on producing military officers, graduates becoming general officers, earning Bronze star, having good evaluations, going into combat arms, and etc.

    I am not sure. I do have my personal opinions but I don't think since my Johnny has higher SAT scores or whatever's than some recruited athletes or other special interest group that my Johnny is more deserving of an appointment seems unfair. As whatever higher achievement used can't be directly linked to someone becoming a great outstanding military officers.
     
  12. MedB

    MedB Parent

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    Member,

    If I understand your premise correctly, than I agree with you that there is no perfect objective test that predicts which of these amazing young people will become great officers. Further, I also agree that there are actually multiple paths and predictors to success... so we should have a WCS-type scoring system that rewards leadership on the field, the classroom, in the community etc. and allows for candidates that excel in different areas an opportunity to join our SAs. No doubt that amazing Johnny bookworm should have a chance just like amazing Johnny athlete does. Total agreement.

    But the point that may be worth making is that while few rationale folks question the numerous benefits that athletics bring, you have to wonder if the "baggage" and "compromises" associated specifically with having to field competitive D1 sports teams is worth it. Especially when you consider that some of our smaller SAs, SMCs, and even outstanding ROTC programs manage to turn out amazing young officers while competing at lower levels of college athletics... In other words, most/all of the benefits with far far few compromises. Isn't that worth considering?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  13. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    We can't argue with what could be if don't field D1 sports team, as we have D1 sports teams.

    Don't get me wrong as if it was up to me, I would has SAs play each other twice a year and call it a season. But, it's not up to me. Given a mission to have D1 sports programs, each SAs are doing what they can and since I don't a better solution they get my tacit support
     
  14. Rocko

    Rocko Member

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    Assuming that what was reported is true then I have trouble with a couple things.

    1. The use of female cadets to "entertain" recruits. This to me is just wrong on so many levels especially at a military academy.

    2. Officers and the coach knowing about this and either not reporting or trying to cover this up. The academies are not just your normal college. They are paid for by taxpayers and serve to train officers of character. When leaders act like this, what message does it send to the cadets?

    I don't blame the players nor recruits, I blame those in charge. If the Academies don't start coming down on those promoting this type of thing I'm afraid the taxpayers might.

    I'm pretty sure the average taxpaying person could care less if the service academies have a great football team, or any D1 sports program for that matter. They do care however how their tax dollars are spent.
     
  15. FlyBoy1993

    FlyBoy1993 Member

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    neither one of those would hurt Army right now...:rolleyes:


    Society's focus on this is so idiotic, what with the corruption in what is the business of college football, that this is even news.

    We're chasing mice as elephants are trampling the living hell out of us.

    IMHO, the academies have no business fielding a D-I football team, exactly for the reasons it takes to be competitive. It is an extreme conflict with the mission of USMA and the others.
     
  16. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    Me too!

    In life not all goals and missions are always achieved. Below the Army Sports Mission and Goals from their website:

    ODIA Mission:
    To provide an unparalleled athletic experience that contributes to West Point’s mission by coaching, developing and inspiring cadets to compete at the highest level in broad-based Division I Athletic programs that emphasize winning, leadership development, growth in character, ethical conduct, and sportsmanship, while creating a lifetime commitment to Duty, Honor, Country.



    ODIA Goals:
    Compete to win
    Beat Air Force, Beat Navy
    Develop scholar-athletes who lead the Corps
    Build, maintain, and refurbish state of the art practice, competition, support facilities, and technological infrastructure
    Create a diverse and inclusive environment which supports a broad-based athletic program
    Recruit and retain the best staff, coaches, and cadet-athletes
    Sustain financial stability & work towards self-sufficiency
    Provide unparalleled athletic experience for cadet-athletes and fans
    Strategically communicate mission of athletic department
    Celebrate success, recognize achievement, and thank those who support
    Affect changes in legislation, policy and regulations that improve performance


    I think they missed on most of these. It is sad this goes on at many colleges. Always has and always will. My dad was a D1 baskteball 4 year basketball player with St John's University late 40s and early 50s. NYC college basketball in those days was huge. College games would bump the Knicks to smaller arenas. Dad had a lot of friends on all the teams. In those days the gambling that went on with those games would make Las Vegas blush. Some of his friends could not resist the temptations. It had a lasting impact.

    The CCNY point shaving scandal of 1950–51 was a college basketball point shaving gambling scandal that involved seven schools in all, with four in Greater New York and three in the Midwest. However, most of the key players in the scandal were players of the 1949–50 CCNY Beavers men's basketball team.

    Aftermath
    The scandal had long-lasting effects for some of the individuals involved, as well as college basketball itself. Coaches, long after the scandal was over, would warn their players what could happen to their lives if they chose to make some "fast money" now.[6]

    Additionally, many collegiate administrators felt the atmosphere at Madison Square Garden, and New York City in general, lent itself to corruption. The NCAA didn't schedule any tournament games in the New York area until 1982, when first and second round games were hosted at the Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum on Long Island. The Final Four wouldn't return to the New York area until the 1996 Final Four was held at the Continental Airlines Arena in East Rutherford, New Jersey. In 2014, the current Madison Square Garden hosted the East Regional semifinals and final--the first time that any NCAA Tournament games were played in New York City itself in 63 years.

    While Kentucky was forced to cancel one season of play (1952–53), it was the only program that was not permanently hobbled by the scandal. To date, Bradley is the only other affected school to have appeared in a final major media poll. However, none of the programs would suffer more than CCNY and LIU. Following the discovery of several other irregularities, CCNY deemphasized its athletic program and dropped down to what is now Division III. LIU shut down its entire athletic program from 1951 to 1957, and didn't return to Division I until the 1980s.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Flyboy,

    I agree and disagree.

    I am not sure why this is news. UNCCH just made news this week for grade inflation. UNCCH has been ranked as a top 5 public IVY for decades. They too are manipulating the system! Seriously, how is this a shocker in the collegiate FB world?

    Let me make this clear, if these allegations are true, every member of the coaching staff should be fired yesterday. I believe as a coach you must be held at the exact same standard as a cadet, if not higher because you are older, and theoretically wiser! They represent the SA, and the moral compass must be there from minute one regarding recruitment.
    ~ The booze, girls and money tells these kids it you're a special snowflake at the SA.

    I disagree with the assumption that they should not be in D1 sports. Google Gen.Gould and Joe Montana. Joe Montana has publicly thanked Gould for launching his football career! USAFA vs Notre Dame.
    ~ Gould was a prepaster, and I don't know if he was a prepster to use the red shirt system, but I know he played FB for USAFA.

    Can anyone say that he was not a good choice, even if he only entered because of his football skills?

    My dearly departed MIL always would say in a discussion like this is:
    Don't throw out the baby with the bath water!

    I really think that is where many are going when they say there is no reason to be D1. The SAs job is to create officers. I get that,but I also see the flip side and the indirect impact for every cadet at an SA.
    ~ D1 FB brings in big money, be it television or bowl games, or heck, filling the seats at the stadiums. Nobody can say with a straight face that those seats and concessions aren't filling the coffers. That money is in turn used to upgrade facilities for the non-shiny sports, such as gymnastics, swim, fencing.
    ~~ If not for the millions they bring in annually, we as tax payers will pay for the upgrades. Sequestration will exist for at least 8 more years....just imagine how the facilities will look at that time if they are downgraded to a D2, and lose television royalties.
    ~~~ A recruited athlete may decide to go ROTC at Notre Dame, TAMU, USC, etc. because they are looking at state of the art fitness centers and OBTW, not walking the line!

    Flame me, because I am fine with it.

    Just saying before you make an assumption that the SA shouldn't be in the D1 division, ask yourself if my kid receives a ROTC scholarship and merit to the point that it is a free education, especially to an SMC, would they take an SA appointment if their gyms sucked for a recruited athlete?

    Would you say that your child recruited to play FB didn't want to serve like the SA cadet?
    ~ I doubt it. I bet you'd say that the SMC or the college program spent the money on athletics and for him to commission, you are trying to reduce the risk of an injury becoming a DQ.

    What are you going to say if the SAs can't afford the upkeep and now as taxpayers we have to divert more funds from the operational budget? Shut it down or subsidize it?

    You need to make a decision, and the SAs, right or wrong have decided this is the devil they will deal with.

    If anything I believe we all should be placing the blame on the coaches and administration, not the D1 aspect. Fire them today! Every SA coach will get the big clue, that yes, we are D1 in the NCAA, but we are an SA!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  18. FlyBoy1993

    FlyBoy1993 Member

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    So D-I football is keeping the Academies afloat?

    I am not saying D-I football in and of itself is a conflict with what the academies are charged with doing. It can and is an integral part of campus life across the country. let's be honest, the academies are at a distinct disadvantage competitively on the football field. Guts, gumption, and outstanding execution still get trumped by talent and 330# offensive linemen. This premise is meted out with regularity throughout the season each and every year, repeatedly.

    Is the money worth it?

    Again, is the payoff worth it? Are the academies willing to do what it takes to REALLY be competitive in D-I football, because the Miamis, Ohio States, and USCs of the world are still giggling at our trepidation over giving recruits some drinks and female student hosts.

    seriously.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  19. MedB

    MedB Parent

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    Pima,

    Again just to clarify... The D1 sports program at USAFA (and other SAs) are net losers financially.

    There have been lots of posts on this (by self and others) citing multi-year investigative journalism studies, studies by Forbes magazine, NCAA's own reports, and even the numbers (or lack thereof) from the SAs themselves and more. No matter how you slice it, there are only a small handful of college FB programs that return net profit.... USAFA and the others are not on that short list.

    When you look at the "all in" costs vs revenues you realize (like all of the investigations have revealed) that these programs are subsidized to tune of 10's of millions of dollars. The fact that these subsidized by various funds and reassigning of costs across non-IC accounts does not change this fact.

    So you really do make some awesome points (as usual, btw! :wink:), but just wanted to point out that justifying these programs based on the mistaken assumption (myth) that they generate net profit is probably not the best case to make.
     
  20. ca2midwestmom

    ca2midwestmom Member

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