Army Football in the news

I think kids choose to go to an Academy for more reasons than you and I could ever list in one sitting. But they all boil down to one starting point: knowledge of the existence of the academy as an option.

Without a doubt they have to know about it in order to want to attend. But I think the majority know of it more due to their Academics than because they have a football team. I very seriously doubt the top academic students are going to an Academy because of their sports program.

The draw to Yale, Harvard, Brown etc. is NOT their athletic programs. It is a top tier education. And if their tuition was funded solely by taxpayers you would see the number of applications skyrocket....
 
Now..... something else that "hurts" West Point.... U.S. Military Academy doesn't narrow it down for many. U.S. Coast Guard Academy.... only an idiot wouldn't know what service CGA feeds (Hint: it's in the name, side note: many people have no idea what the Coast Guard is.... that's not lost on Coasties). I would guess MOST people don't know the U.S. Naval Academy feeds the Marine Corps, but they probably know it feeds the Navy. The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy.... HAHA, anyone's best guess, but many think it's for the Marines.

Does the fact that the Coast Guard Academy isn't D1 diminish its standings? I don't know. I think where knowledge of the institution matters, no.... for the layman on the street....yes. The Coast Guard Academy could field a D1 football team, they can barely field a D3 team. I'm OK with that. When I look back at my time there, it wasn't about wowing the world. Now, I'd guess my experience in the Coast Guard fuels that, because the non-recognition doesn't stop at graduation.

I'm not convinced West Point, or Anapolis or AFA would suffer, as far as their missions to train cadets and midshipmen is concerned, if they lost D1 football. Sure, less people would talk about them, but lets be honest, most of that talk is neither grounded in reality nor credible.
 
Without a doubt they have to know about it in order to want to attend. But I think the majority know of it more due to their Academics than because they have a football team. I very seriously doubt the top academic students are going to an Academy because of their sports program.

The draw to Yale, Harvard, Brown etc. is NOT their athletic programs. It is a top tier education. And if their tuition was funded solely by taxpayers you would see the number of applications skyrocket....

Very true. Yes, people will RECOGNIZE the Army Navy Game, but that doesn't mean a majority of those folks would be competitive candidates.
 
I think kids choose to go to an Academy for more reasons than you and I could ever list in one sitting. But they all boil down to one starting point: knowledge of the existence of the academy as an option.

Being a FFR for about 10 years, I agree with Scoutpilot.

Too many times I heard "What's West Point?"
 
Being a FFR for about 10 years, I agree with Scoutpilot.

Too many times I heard "What's West Point?"

The football program works so well that you repeatedly heard that question?

I don't understand your "agreement." Seems that would support those who say it doesn't help.
 
The football program works so well that you repeatedly heard that question?

I don't understand your "agreement." Seems that would support those who say it doesn't help.

I'ma let you think about that one for a minute.
 
Yes.



Yes.

What documented data and information do you have to support this?

Your word of "yes" isn't enough. You could be right, however, there has been no corroborating information provided.

So the question still remains unanswered.
 
What documented data and information do you have to support this?

Your word of "yes" isn't enough. You could be right, however, there has been no corroborating information provided.

So the question still remains unanswered.

Did you not see the post immediately following that one?
 
Cadets excel at cultivating the attitude of "everybody else is getting a better deal than me" which leads to the "if it had be you or me, we'd be done but they got special treatment.

BigBear, did you know the cadets involved also got a Military Development "F" for the semester? That's a career-altering event when branch time comes around.

For the record, my intent was to post the general consensus from the corps, not my personal beliefs. If taking some kids to a bowling alley and drinking is really the most egregious thing West Point Football does for recruiting, its no wonder we've been losing the recruiting battle for the past decade.

As an aside, everyone I know who has earned themselves an alcohol board also got a military F for that semester, so that doesn't really "make up for" the minimal punishment the team got in comparison to a normal cadet. With that being said, I am sure there is significantly more to the story than I know, especially if those involved were essentially encouraged to do it by an officer or coach.
 
The football program works so well that you repeatedly heard that question?

I don't understand your "agreement." Seems that would support those who say it doesn't help.

My agreement has nothing to do with the football program. Scoutpilot also didn't quantify how much the football program contributed to the expanding the knowledge base

Scoutpilot's comment was

I think kids choose to go to an Academy for more reasons than you and I could ever list in one sitting. But they all boil down to one starting point: knowledge of the existence of the academy as an option.
 
You're being obtuse for the sake of it, with zero evidence to back your claim other than your own feelings. When Navy plays Notre Dame, it's huge. 3 hours of the US Naval Academy on NBC. When Army plays Stanford, it's huge. Coverage all over the Pac-12 network area, which stretches the width and breadth of the Western US and huge pockets of the Midwest, South, and East.

Name some famous Navy athletes. Roger Staubach. David Robinson. Hell, that's why David Robinson was known as "The Admiral" his whole career. Everybody who remembers him playing knows he went to Navy.

It's a dog-eat-dog world for admissions talent. Like it or not, there's value in TV time and seeing "Army at Stanford" and "Notre Dame at Navy" and "Air Force at Boise State" crawl across the bottom of the screen when you're watching a different game. There's a reason you've heard of Anaheim. They have a team. You think anyone would know Green Bay, Wisconsin exists without the Packers? Love sports or hate them, but they're the most popular thing on TV. Being in the mix matters.

Aside from your personal assessment of my mindset, lets discuss your answer.

Feelings, experiences and opinions are not the same.
A feeling is an emotion.
An experience is an interaction with the world around you.
An opinion is a personal assessment/point of view based upon feelings and experiences


1) My EXPERIENCE as a parent living in the North East of a USAFA cadet is that despite D1 football, most people do NOT know the USAFA exists. I have actively and consistently interacted with people from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts since my son started the application process last year. Nine out of ten people had no clue. Nada. Nothing. Many of them are huge football fans. Still nada, nothing. This is an experience not a feeling. The people who tended to know about the USAFA were those who were previously enlisted or currently serving.

2) My EXPERIENCE is that cadet parents living on the east coast were unable to watch the Navy-Air Force game because it was not shown on any of the major stations. If you wanted to see it, you had to purchase special on-line access or cable channel access. This includes parents from Maine down through Florida. We would not have bothered networking with parents who were actually out in Colorado Springs at the game if we could easily view the game for ourselves.

3) College football only reaches out to those who watch college football. College games, just like professional games, are only shown in areas where people will be interested enough to tune in. Meaning, the teams need to be popular already. Advertisers target a given demographic. They are not going to spend money if they don't get that viewership. Thus, the television stations are only going to broadcast games that generate the required viewership. This in itself limits the publicity exposure of and impact of D1 football games. If the population doesn't demand it, the station isn't going to broadcast it. The rules of marketing and economics applies to all, even academy football teams.

4) Citing the popularity of other college football teams is a fallacious argument. Just because most people have heard about Notre Dame, does not mean that most people have heard about the USAFA, USNA, USMA, USMMA, USCGA. Since most of the people in my neighborhood know me, does this mean I can conclude that most of my town knows me? Of course not. It is a false argument.

5) You pointed out that there is a set market for D1 football. I quote "When Army plays Stanford, it's huge. Coverage all over the Pac-12 network area, which stretches the width and breadth of the Western US and huge pockets of the Midwest, South, and East." Do you see the areas of the country you are missing? "Only pockets" are your words. You pointed out the limited market they consistently advertise to. Your statements supports my point that it is a limited area.

My feelings are that I don't like (notice the word like, that denotes an emotion) the controversy surrounding D1 sports. It concerns me (another word denoting emotional state of mind) that many questions go unanswered or are not addressed. I disapprove of (personal feeling here) "the sit down and shut up and just accept it because it has always been this way and we said so attitude." I feel (again, another word denoting an emotional state) that if things were openly discussed and information shared, there would be more support and acceptance. I am uneasy (again, emotional indication) about the future of not only D1 sports but all IC sports in military academies due to budgetary issues (sequestration still continues). I am puzzled (emotional state of mind) over why there is no ready source outlining the benefits and purpose of D1 sports for a military academy other than "we are on TV, and its advertising, and it builds character." What characteristics are built? There are different types of sports, individual vs. team, which emphasize and develop different characteristics. As only a subset of an academy participates in the D1 sports, what benefit does it bring to all the cadets, not just the small group which participates? What is even more worrisome (again, feeling state of mind) is that there seems to be an over emphasis on D1 football, and the other D1 sports are looked over. In fact (note fact isn't an emotional word here, its not a feeling), other D1 sports are cut or proposed to be cut when budgetary times are tough, but no one wants to touch football. The USAFA originally proposed cutting 4 D1 sports without touching D1 football. The USAFA actually cut assistant coaching positions while adding another assistant coach to football (again a fact, not a feeling). I think many parents and tax payers would love (word connotative of a strong emotion) why D1 football is such a holy cow? Overall, why are D1 sports so important to character development?

My actual feelings on football and D1 sports is I have no problem with sports, D1, football or otherwise. I have a problem with the culture that can grow up around the sport. Those are my feelings.
 
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The discussion is good and lots of good comments. Lets try not to take this argument personally though folks. I guarantee that that there is no gospel truth on the subject of the merits of D1 athletics at the service academies.
 
For what its worth

According to USA today analysis – In 2011 the West Point athletic department had ticket sales of $3,890,649 …contributions of $2,786,066 …license & rights of $8,685,783 and other income of $7,219,528. This totals $22,582,026.

West Point athletic department had expenses of staff and coaches $11,520,086 … grounds maintenance $3,711,472 and other expense of $12,188,918. This totals $27,420,476.

I don’t want to go into the cost of athletic scholarships, since everyone that goes to the Point gets one. Nor do I want to calculate the cost of major improvements to facilities or amortizing the replacement cost of Michie Stadium ( built in 1924 ). I also have no desire to calculate the advertising and goodwill value that the Army / Navy game generates for the college.

I would hazard a guess that the football program is probably an overall money maker – and provides some support the other D1 programs.
 
I am uneasy (again, emotional indication) about the future of not only D1 sports but all IC sports in military academies due to budgetary issues (sequestration still continues).
I think many parents and tax payers would love (word connotative of a strong emotion) why D1 football is such a holy cow?

Your tax money does not pay for Army football. Contributions to AAA and AOG do. Now we could get into the new housing area on post built just for athletic head coaches. That was definitely your tax money…..
 
As a college football fan, I chuckled when I read the Supe's letter. I am sure any AD at a D1 school in the country would too. Drinking at the local bowling alley? Really? What happened wasn't right, but it doesn't even come close to touching what is happening at UNC-CH right now. Army looks like a saint compared to them. I think the UNC-CH violations are more in line with the norm at most big D1 sports teams.
 
As a college football fan, I chuckled when I read the Supe's letter. I am sure any AD at a D1 school in the country would too. Drinking at the local bowling alley? Really? What happened wasn't right, but it doesn't even come close to touching what is happening at UNC-CH right now. Army looks like a saint compared to them. I think the UNC-CH violations are more in line with the norm at most big D1 sports teams.

It's all relative. Within the federal service academy community, West Point isn't looking very saintly. Comparing the schools to non-service academies to justify (or pseudo-excuse) behavior because it's not as bad as other schools.... is a slippery slope.
 
. . . It concerns me (another word denoting emotional state of mind) that many questions go unanswered or are not addressed. I disapprove of (personal feeling here) "the sit down and shut up and just accept it because it has always been this way and we said so attitude."

From my point of view, most of the questions are answered and addressed.

Agree or disagree, the generally accepted (maybe not accpeted) reasons for having Div I sports programs at SAs are (not limited)

- assist with leader development
- revenue to support other sports program
- publicity

In return, SAs give some or a lot of consideration to a candidate's athletic ability.
 
Thought we were better

I have to say this mess makes me feel very sad. I thought West Point was better than this. Cadets broke rules, no excuse. All cadets should be held to the same standard, it does matter if you are a corps squad athlete or not. One Army, One standard. I know if it was my son he would have been kicked out of West Point. All of the cadets involved knew better.

The alcohol violations are one thing but the fact that any female cadet was used to "sell" West Point sickens me. It is so sad that any female cadet would allow herself to be put into this position. What's worse is that officers asked these female cadets to participate. Those officers involved should be forced out.
 
The place is not the ivory tower everyone wants to think it is. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is just made up of people. I think we all very much admire the ideals that West Point strives for, but it often falls short with the humanity of the place. Heck, even the former supe proves this, and he was in charge of the joint.

Just imagine…..even if Mr. Colorado Springs Gazette crackerjack reporter hadn’t written this story, these events did take place. Cadets and others on the inside could tell you of other offenses that never even make it into the public eye.
 
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