AROTC scholarship complications

[patentesq]

These are really impressive posts, goaliedad. Extremely sound advice as usual. (I wish there was a "like" button, so I didn't have to create another post just to express my concurrence with your thoughts). The one thing that AP classes are good for is lightening the load to enable the student to focus on tough classes and ROTC. My DS looked at UVM last year. I think they have an extremely impressive PMS and are located just down the road from the National Guard training center, making training more convenient.

 

[Jcleppe]

Point here is that in the Army, everything is scored, and the better you can engineer your college experience to maximize that score, the better choices you will have. And the Army doesn't care that you went to U of C. GPA is considered the same from either school.

Great post Goliedad.

I just wanted to expand on the comment above.

There are other things to look at when researching the grading systems at different universities.

If UofC does not recognize ROTC then they may not include the MS classes as part of you GPA or count the credits towards your degree or graduation requirements. If this is the case then you will have a much heavier class load. Every university grades the MS classes different, for example; Some programs roll the MS class, Lab, and PT into one class, meaning you first year you would receive one credit for you entire MS class. Other schools split the classes, at these schools you would receive three credits. Things like Ranger Challenge and Color Guard are considered EC at some schools and are credited classes at others. Since colleges use the Quality Points System for calculating your GPA, this can make a big difference. Look at whether the school uses the +- in grading or if they are a staright A,B,C,D scale, this can make a difference as well, a student at college A with all 91% will have a 3.7, while at a different school they would have a 4.0.

When my son was comparing schools it came down to 2 choices, both schools were equal in most areas, instead of just flipping a coin he looked at the grading system.

College A:
All the classes were graded seprately.
MS1: 1 credit
Lab: 1 credit
PT; 1 credit
Ranger Challenge: 1 credit
Color Guard: 1 credit
TOTAL: 5 credits

College B
MS1, Lab, PT: 1 credit
Ranger Challenge and Color Guard were Extra Credit
TOTAL: 1 credit

Assuming you receive an A in each class you can see how that can effect your GPA.

The other deciding factor was that the upper level MS3 and MS4 classes counted as related fields which helped keep his class load down.

All of this can have a large impact on your GPA and your class load. If Active Duty is something you desire then look at each schools policies carefully.

Goliedad explained very well how it can be difficult to be in a non host school. If UofC does not have an official ROTC presence on campus then you will most likely need to go to the host school for PT, do not underestimate how difficult this will be. Most PT starts at 6:00am which means you have to bethere and ready at 5:45am. Add in the time you will need to travel to the host school and you can see the issues. As you prgress through ROTC you will find that you will spend a lot of time at the ROTC offices, even more if you are in a leadership role. As a MS3 you will be there a lot, more then you think, as a MS4 even more. When you consider the travel between schools and the class load at UofC something will have to give. ROTC is mmore then just the class, it is a time commitment, the first year is not bad but it get's much busier as you progress.

I didn't mean to piggyback onto Goliedad's post, just a few things to think about.

 

[Aglahad]

Great post Goliedad.

I just wanted to expand on the comment above.

There are other things to look at when researching the grading systems at different universities.

If UofC does not recognize ROTC then they may not include the MS classes as part of you GPA or count the credits towards your degree or graduation requirements. If this is the case then you will have a much heavier class load. Every university grades the MS classes different, for example; Some programs roll the MS class, Lab, and PT into one class, meaning you first year you would receive one credit for you entire MS class. Other schools split the classes, at these schools you would receive three credits. Things like Ranger Challenge and Color Guard are considered EC at some schools and are credited classes at others. Since colleges use the Quality Points System for calculating your GPA, this can make a big difference. Look at whether the school uses the +- in grading or if they are a staright A,B,C,D scale, this can make a difference as well, a student at college A with all 91% will have a 3.7, while at a different school they would have a 4.0.

When my son was comparing schools it came down to 2 choices, both schools were equal in most areas, instead of just flipping a coin he looked at the grading system.

College A:
All the classes were graded seprately.
MS1: 1 credit
Lab: 1 credit
PT; 1 credit
Ranger Challenge: 1 credit
Color Guard: 1 credit
TOTAL: 5 credits

College B
MS1, Lab, PT: 1 credit
Ranger Challenge and Color Guard were Extra Credit
TOTAL: 1 credit

Assuming you receive an A in each class you can see how that can effect your GPA.

The other deciding factor was that the upper level MS3 and MS4 classes counted as related fields which helped keep his class load down.

All of this can have a large impact on your GPA and your class load. If Active Duty is something you desire then look at each schools policies carefully.

Goliedad explained very well how it can be difficult to be in a non host school. If UofC does not have an official ROTC presence on campus then you will most likely need to go to the host school for PT, do not underestimate how difficult this will be. Most PT starts at 6:00am which means you have to bethere and ready at 5:45am. Add in the time you will need to travel to the host school and you can see the issues. As you prgress through ROTC you will find that you will spend a lot of time at the ROTC offices, even more if you are in a leadership role. As a MS3 you will be there a lot, more then you think, as a MS4 even more. When you consider the travel between schools and the class load at UofC something will have to give. ROTC is mmore then just the class, it is a time commitment, the first year is not bad but it get's much busier as you progress.

I didn't mean to piggyback onto Goliedad's post, just a few things to think about.

On the flip-side those extra credits can hamper your academic schedule especially when one has broad interests such as the OP. I am not sure how UofChi, UVM and Middle work for MS credits but that is also something to think about. I know quite a few MS3/4s including myself who asked that our MS be counted as only 1 credit so we could get some other classes in to our schedule.

I echo the same though about Host vs Satellite schools. It is a extreme pain you know where when you have to commute day in day out for lab and MS class. This morning we had a rehearsal drill for our weekend FTX this Saturday and even though I live on campus my wake-up time was 0430. After the rehearsal was over we conducted PT. A lot of our guys are prior service and live off campus and the drive does effect their home lives.

 

[Jcleppe]

On the flip-side those extra credits can hamper your academic schedule especially when one has broad interests such as the OP. I am not sure how UofChi, UVM and Middle work for MS credits but that is also something to think about. I know quite a few MS3/4s including myself who asked that our MS be counted as only 1 credit so we could get some other classes in to our schedule.

During the MS3/4 years the MS credits would add up to 6 credits if he did Ranger Challenge as well. Adding the regular class load plus any other classes he wanted to take such as Arabic or others, he was always over the credit limit. He was always able to get approval from the school and the Army always paid the extra credit costs.

Did your school handle things different, it would be a shame to not take advantage of the quality point values of those extra credits.

 

[Aglahad]

During the MS3/4 years the MS credits would add up to 6 credits if he did Ranger Challenge as well. Adding the regular class load plus any other classes he wanted to take such as Arabic or others, he was always over the credit limit. He was always able to get approval from the school and the Army always paid the extra credit costs.

Did your school handle things different, it would be a shame to not take advantage of the quality point values of those extra credits.

The only exception I ever saw was for nurses because with our MS classes we had to go over the 17 credit limit. According to our cadre any credits over the 17 max or summer classes had to be out of our own pocket. They were very strict when I got approval for extra credits and made me make another 104-r to confirm I needed the class (the program is sequential in nature) to graduate nursing school. Unfortunate but that's how it has always been here. My pre-med classes are all out of my own pocket...

 

[Jcleppe]

The only exception I ever saw was for nurses because with our MS classes we had to go over the 17 credit limit. According to our cadre any credits over the 17 max or summer classes had to be out of our own pocket. They were very strict when I got approval for extra credits and made me make another 104-r to confirm I needed the class (the program is sequential in nature) to graduate nursing school. Unfortunate but that's how it has always been here. My pre-med classes are all out of my own pocket...

Well I learn something new everyday, this board does help to get an understanding of how different schools and ROTC programs work. I guess it pays to do your research, all schools and ROTC programs are not created equal.

My son's school had a credit limit of 19, it was changed to 20 this year. Any number of credits over the limit was paid for no matter what the major. Summer courses or online courses not required by the school were on his dime as well.

 

[EDelahanty]

During the MS3/4 years the MS credits would add up to 6 credits if he did Ranger Challenge as well.

JCleppe, are you saying that academic credits are awarded for Ranger Challenge at your son's school? I know there is a book larnin' component to RC but doesn't it pretty much wind down after the (October) competition.

 

[kinnem]

JCleppe, are you saying that academic credits are awarded for Ranger Challenge at your son's school? I know there is a book larnin' component to RC but doesn't it pretty much wind down after the (October) competition.

I'm guessing. I'm sure jcleppe will chime in but is probably treated like a PE type class similar to how PT is treated?

 

[Aglahad]

I'm guessing. I'm sure jcleppe will chime in but is probably treated like a PE type class similar to how PT is treated?

Ya, a lot of our PE 1 credit courses are half a semester. My schools allows us to use ROTC once as a 1 credit PE.

 

[cjs]

At my son's school MSI and MSII, ROTC class is 2 credits and lab is 0. Color guard, etc. is 0. MSIII and MSIV, class is 3 credits and lab is 0, ranger etc is 0. PT is 0 all years.

They are only allowed to take 18 credits. My son has taken Arabic these last two semesters and loves it and has A's but unfortunately has to drop it because it's a 5 credit class and he just can't do it next year.

 

[shootingsilver]

Again, thanks to jcleppe, goaliedad, and others - you are all a wealth of information and I really, really appreciate it. I promise I'm not being lazy - I have been searching the forums and utilizing Google, but nothing quite compares to having a single source lay it all out.

When you are talking about a limit to the number of credit hours, do you mean that the number of classes one can take per semester is limited? I know Chicago is on the quarter system - would that affect this? I will have some AP credit there, although they limit it to 6 (I think) so I'd have a little flexibility in my schedule (theoretically. I could be completely wrong since I have no idea what I'm talking about)

I think someone mentioned in a post that it sounds as if I'm leaning towards Chicago. They're correct: I am, when I weigh my options purely academically and yeah, maybe I liked the city of Chicago more than the city of Burlington. but I love mountains (big hiker/skier/backpacker) so I've basically decided that they're equal in terms of location. On one hand, I want to believe that I could make it work at Chicago because I'd like to think that I'm just that determined. At the same time, I'm afraid of being overconfident in my own dedication. There are always going to be days when I just don't want to get out of bed in the morning, and it would be so much easier for me to quit at Chicago. Going to UVM would basically eliminate the option of failure (after the first year, right? Otherwise I owe lots and lots of money). On the other hand...sticking with it for four years at Chicago would feel pretty great to me personally, and I wouldn't worry about feeling as if I compromised my education. On the other other hand...UVM is still a very good school and one where I would have more of a chance to stand out in a good way. I'm not saying that because I want to sound full of myself so I hope it didn't come across that way. I'm just thinking that, academically, Chicago is such a strong school that a lot of my peers would be much smarter than I am. I love that kind of atmosphere in a classroom and I find that I do better when I'm really challenged because I hate being last or even just average. I want to know that I worked my butt off to do my best even if I don't end up being in the top 5%. At Vermont, I'm worried I wouldn't push myself. A lot of these issues are things that I'm just gonna have to figure out & deal with so sorry for the rambling. I guess I'm just thinking out loud via my keyboard.
End ramble.

My end goal is to commission as a second lieutenant. ROTC is one path. Officer Candidate School is another, according to the goarmy website. I was looking at this thread:

http://www.nationalguard.com/forums/showthread.php/1354-National-Guard-Army-ROTC-Scholarships

My cousin joined the National Guard after his college graduation and proceeded to serve in Afghanistan. The Guard seems to have a lot more flexibility which might be a better option for me if I do end up deciding that I want to attend Chicago. I am in no way trying to imply that the UVM scholarship isn't an amazing opportunity, I just want to be informed of all my options before I make a decision because this really is the most important decision of my life. I know this is an internet forum so I just want to make sure no one misinterprets my intentions. Anyway, how competitive is the candidate school? Would it be possible for me to enlist, train with the Natl. Guard while in college and then apply to be an officer? I realize that the OCS (is that the correct use of the acronym? I haven't gotten them quite figured out yet) is much, much shorter of a training period than ROTC but obviously it is doable or it wouldn't be an option..or at least I hope so.
I read on another thread that one can delay basic training for up to a year after enlistment. If I enlisted this summer, I could do training the summer after my freshman year of college?

If I went to a recruiter, would he/she be able to help me work through all these possibilities? I hate to keep bothering you folks with what probably seems to be an overload of inane questions.
Again, I really appreciate your help so far.

 

[goaliedad]

Again, thanks to jcleppe, goaliedad, and others - you are all a wealth of information and I really, really appreciate it. I promise I'm not being lazy - I have been searching the forums and utilizing Google, but nothing quite compares to having a single source lay it all out.

When you are talking about a limit to the number of credit hours, do you mean that the number of classes one can take per semester is limited? I know Chicago is on the quarter system - would that affect this? I will have some AP credit there, although they limit it to 6 (I think) so I'd have a little flexibility in my schedule (theoretically. I could be completely wrong since I have no idea what I'm talking about)

I think someone mentioned in a post that it sounds as if I'm leaning towards Chicago. They're correct: I am, when I weigh my options purely academically and yeah, maybe I liked the city of Chicago more than the city of Burlington. but I love mountains (big hiker/skier/backpacker) so I've basically decided that they're equal in terms of location. On one hand, I want to believe that I could make it work at Chicago because I'd like to think that I'm just that determined. At the same time, I'm afraid of being overconfident in my own dedication. There are always going to be days when I just don't want to get out of bed in the morning, and it would be so much easier for me to quit at Chicago. Going to UVM would basically eliminate the option of failure (after the first year, right? Otherwise I owe lots and lots of money). On the other hand...sticking with it for four years at Chicago would feel pretty great to me personally, and I wouldn't worry about feeling as if I compromised my education. On the other other hand...UVM is still a very good school and one where I would have more of a chance to stand out in a good way. I'm not saying that because I want to sound full of myself so I hope it didn't come across that way. I'm just thinking that, academically, Chicago is such a strong school that a lot of my peers would be much smarter than I am. I love that kind of atmosphere in a classroom and I find that I do better when I'm really challenged because I hate being last or even just average. I want to know that I worked my butt off to do my best even if I don't end up being in the top 5%. At Vermont, I'm worried I wouldn't push myself. A lot of these issues are things that I'm just gonna have to figure out & deal with so sorry for the rambling. I guess I'm just thinking out loud via my keyboard.
End ramble.

My end goal is to commission as a second lieutenant. ROTC is one path. Officer Candidate School is another, according to the goarmy website. I was looking at this thread:

http://www.nationalguard.com/forums/showthread.php/1354-National-Guard-Army-ROTC-Scholarships

My cousin joined the National Guard after his college graduation and proceeded to serve in Afghanistan. The Guard seems to have a lot more flexibility which might be a better option for me if I do end up deciding that I want to attend Chicago. I am in no way trying to imply that the UVM scholarship isn't an amazing opportunity, I just want to be informed of all my options before I make a decision because this really is the most important decision of my life. I know this is an internet forum so I just want to make sure no one misinterprets my intentions. Anyway, how competitive is the candidate school? Would it be possible for me to enlist, train with the Natl. Guard while in college and then apply to be an officer? I realize that the OCS (is that the correct use of the acronym? I haven't gotten them quite figured out yet) is much, much shorter of a training period than ROTC but obviously it is doable or it wouldn't be an option..or at least I hope so.
I read on another thread that one can delay basic training for up to a year after enlistment. If I enlisted this summer, I could do training the summer after my freshman year of college?

If I went to a recruiter, would he/she be able to help me work through all these possibilities? I hate to keep bothering you folks with what probably seems to be an overload of inane questions.
Again, I really appreciate your help so far.

The only inane questions are the ones that you didn't see the answer to in the previous post... You're doing fine.

I'll take on a couple questions and leave the rest for others to opine.

First issue - your motivation once at school. I'm hoping, given the rambling nature of your post, that your worries about motivation to achieve are just the normal nervousness about college. You need to understand your own self (based upon your history) as to how you react to competition or the lack therof. One thing for certain, everything in the Army is competitive. If you are on your game in being competitive within your unit at UVM you will be on top of your game academically because it is one of the largest factors in where you rack and stack in ROTC.

Second issue - OCS. In the recent past, there were plenty of commissions to be offered to all sources (Service Academies, SMCs, ROTC, OCS). With the coming reduction in the size of the Army, there are retrenchments going on in all sources. If you've poked around here, you may have seen a thread about some SMCs having their commissioning targets reduced. It is widely discussed here about the number of ROTC commmissions being reduced. The general consensus around here is that OCS is the easiest spigot to turn off to make those targets and is likely to be totaly shut down in the near future.

I'll open the forum for others to talk about NG and some of the college credit questions...

 

[dunninla]

My end goal is to commission as a second lieutenant. ROTC is one path. Officer Candidate School is another.
My cousin joined the National Guard after his college graduation and proceeded to serve in Afghanistan. The Guard seems to have a lot more flexibility which might be a better option for me if I do end up deciding that I want to attend Chicago.

My opinion only... you don't yet know what you want. First, OCS is almost zero probability in 4.5 years unless another war erupts. So forget about OCS as a realistic possibility in the current environment.

But more fundamentally, if you think serving in the National Guard is fungible with service in the Active Duty Army, then you simply haven't given enough thought to what TYPE of servicing you want to commit to. This opinion is based both on your current posts, and the fact that you applied for the AROTC scholarship at he very last minute, without a lot of pre-thought. If you accept the UVM scholarship, you will be spending either a min. of four years in Active Duty, or eight years in the Reserves, depending on your own desire but also your position on the OML. Nothing that you've written gives me the sense that you've thought this through for years, or even months.

 

[cb7893]

Silver,

Have just now read through this entire thread and your approach and choices are very close to my DS's. He got into elites, waitlisted but ultimately rejected at U of Chi. One of his best pals from HS went to U of Chi with the same kind of unrefined notion of what he really wanted to study. He is a sophomore there and loves everything about it.

DS only got AROTC 4 yr to Ga Tech. He did a gap year in Taiwan. The scholarship was deferred, but even before he left for Taiwan, he knew that he would try to transfer the scholarship to Big 10 State U as an out of stater. His major is Chem E.

Do not think for a minute that you will step down that much in challenge at the public, although I know there are differences. If UVM has an honors program, you should investigate it and get into it. You will probably find that Vermont tries its best to keep its best and brightest at home, and they will go looking for the best and brightest out of staters, like you. People tend to settle where that graduate college. Don't forget there are many high income parents who started at state schools and see no reason to pay the extra $30-50 for a private education.

This was my DS's experience. It was the only school that acted like they really wanted him. His non-rotc roommate (also out of stater) had 2400 SAT, parents are high earners, and is only paying room and board; less than $10k.

You will probably second guess yourself the moment you make the final decision. However, you will probably be thrilled with your decision two weeks after classes begin.

DS didn't completely buy into his decision until we dropped him off. Loves everything about his Battalion and school.

Finally, I would suggest going to Chicago. Stay up until 1:00 am reading Thucydides and do a trial run from U of Chi to Circle at 5:30 AM. Then imagine that in Mid December. My DS barely makes it all work with only a mile jog from his dorm to the Armory.

Good luck with whatever decision.