Athletic Recruit who isn't "into" the military
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ADM Allen may have found support from teammates, I'll agree.
Five times for considering DOR? I don't know many cadets who haven't had that thought multiple times. There wasn't a semester there that I didn't at one point think "why am I doing this to myself." Did I have a football team to get me through it? No. My strength came from myself, my family, and a HUGE part of it came from my shipmates (especially classmates). I can NAME the people in my class that made that difference for me.
OH NO, NEW STAT...let's see the percentage of people with friends who make it through. I'm going to assume that number is HIGHER than 8%.
I don't want to make any WILD speculation, but I assume my EXPERIENCES are a little more recent.
Let's base it on NUMBERS? How about 100% of CGA Court Martials were football players.
I take "PREDICTED" numbers for what they're worth, but you're welcome to put more stock in them.
I respect ADM Allen a great deal, that is a sentiment that can be felt across the Coast Guard. What else would you expect for him to say to the football coach? I thought about quiting and the team did nothing for me?
My company mates, members of my class who I named on my page in the Tide Rips (our year book); I credit them for their great influence and support. For some it may be a team. But to say that a football player is somehow above the rest....that's buying into a system that makes some members of a fleet feeling above the rest...an idea that will set them up for failure pretty quickly.
The USNA QB was found not guilty for the RAPE charges, but was found GUILTY for conduct unbecoming and disobeying a lawful order.
Is that Navy QB wearing butter bars these days?
Five times for considering DOR? I don't know many cadets who haven't had that thought multiple times. There wasn't a semester there that I didn't at one point think "why am I doing this to myself." Did I have a football team to get me through it? No. My strength came from myself, my family, and a HUGE part of it came from my shipmates (especially classmates). I can NAME the people in my class that made that difference for me.
OH NO, NEW STAT...let's see the percentage of people with friends who make it through. I'm going to assume that number is HIGHER than 8%.
I don't want to make any WILD speculation, but I assume my EXPERIENCES are a little more recent.
Let's base it on NUMBERS? How about 100% of CGA Court Martials were football players.
I take "PREDICTED" numbers for what they're worth, but you're welcome to put more stock in them.
I respect ADM Allen a great deal, that is a sentiment that can be felt across the Coast Guard. What else would you expect for him to say to the football coach? I thought about quiting and the team did nothing for me?
My company mates, members of my class who I named on my page in the Tide Rips (our year book); I credit them for their great influence and support. For some it may be a team. But to say that a football player is somehow above the rest....that's buying into a system that makes some members of a fleet feeling above the rest...an idea that will set them up for failure pretty quickly.
The USNA QB was found not guilty for the RAPE charges, but was found GUILTY for conduct unbecoming and disobeying a lawful order.
Is that Navy QB wearing butter bars these days?
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beatkp
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First off, I did not intend to imply that a Service Academy Football player is somehow above the rest of his peers but was only responding with an example to the original question, an athletic recruit (a football player) who isn’t “into” the military.
In the article on Adm. Allen explained how he came to a service academy with the intent to play football and then he was only going to stay five years and get out. Hardly a military oriented mind set.
Then he goes on and explains how it (military service) grows on you.
I thought this article was a good example of someone, who might attend a service academy with the intent to play football, think they’re not into the military and what may be a result of his experiences. I only used an example of the CGA since I have a vested interest there.
If I gave the impression that football players stand a better chance at staying beyond their obligation of five years, it wasn’t intended.
If I’m not mistaken, 85% of CGA grads stay beyond five years and huge majority of those wasn’t because of playing football. Besides the previously mentioned percentage, I do not have a clue about the sustainability of officer retention levels in the Coast Guard regarding football players.
But what I do know is that CGA football players do have a special camaraderie that helps them get through the tough times, especially during the season and they do have family believe or not, that helps them out also. During the three and a half month long season of getting knocked around for three to four hours a day and having to do the same military and academic obligations as everyone else can make a tremendous amount of stress.
First off, I did not intend to imply that a Service Academy Football player is somehow above the rest of his peers but was only responding with an example to the original question, an athletic recruit (a football player) who isn’t “into” the military.
In the article on Adm. Allen explained how he came to a service academy with the intent to play football and then he was only going to stay five years and get out. Hardly a military oriented mind set.
Then he goes on and explains how it (military service) grows on you.
I thought this article was a good example of someone, who might attend a service academy with the intent to play football, think they’re not into the military and what may be a result of his experiences. I only used an example of the CGA since I have a vested interest there.
If I gave the impression that football players stand a better chance at staying beyond their obligation of five years, it wasn’t intended.
If I’m not mistaken, 85% of CGA grads stay beyond five years and huge majority of those wasn’t because of playing football. Besides the previously mentioned percentage, I do not have a clue about the sustainability of officer retention levels in the Coast Guard regarding football players.
But what I do know is that CGA football players do have a special camaraderie that helps them get through the tough times, especially during the season and they do have family believe or not, that helps them out also. During the three and a half month long season of getting knocked around for three to four hours a day and having to do the same military and academic obligations as everyone else can make a tremendous amount of stress.
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No, Beat, you did not give the impression that they stand above their shipmates, USNA69's 8% comment did.
I appreciate the Allen quote, and I've seen it before.
As for the family they develope with their teammates, I don't doubt that. That can be good when it means support and encouragement. It can also be bad when a teammate steps in to keep his teammate from being held accountable. If I had 5 cents for every time I had to deal with an upperclass teammate of a 4/c football player that could not do his freakin' job....I would probably have around....20-30 cents. I don't accept the "I'll deal with him because we're teammates and he'll understand." Football players can get waivers for some of the physical requirements during their cadet careers, however these weight waivers don't work for commissioning requirements, so many times there is a battle at the end of a players 4 years to drop to the required weight to meet standards.
I am by no means condeming teams. I think teams are great, and the sports provide a much needed release for aggression and energy.
I appreciate the Allen quote, and I've seen it before.
As for the family they develope with their teammates, I don't doubt that. That can be good when it means support and encouragement. It can also be bad when a teammate steps in to keep his teammate from being held accountable. If I had 5 cents for every time I had to deal with an upperclass teammate of a 4/c football player that could not do his freakin' job....I would probably have around....20-30 cents. I don't accept the "I'll deal with him because we're teammates and he'll understand." Football players can get waivers for some of the physical requirements during their cadet careers, however these weight waivers don't work for commissioning requirements, so many times there is a battle at the end of a players 4 years to drop to the required weight to meet standards.
I am by no means condeming teams. I think teams are great, and the sports provide a much needed release for aggression and energy.
Just_A_Mom
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beatkp - that was a very nice post.
The Service academies value athletes. especially those who play on teams.
92% of all West Point cadets earned varsity letters in high school - I am sure this is by design and not coincidence.
West Point espcially values those who participate in TEAM sports. I am sure they have good reason.
Are there some bad apples? Sure. Those who are high profile athletes who turn bad get a lot of bad press. It is more "newsworthy".
The fact is those who enjoy and are good at team sports are especially suited to the structure of a military lifestyle. They understand the concept of the mission and the team and can translate that into the military mission.
If you gave me 10 bright, fit and eager kids who had never considered the military before and 5 were varisty athletes in a team sport (football, soccer, field hockey, ice hockey, lacrosse) and 5 never played on a team - I would bet on the team athletes.
The Service academies value athletes. especially those who play on teams.
92% of all West Point cadets earned varsity letters in high school - I am sure this is by design and not coincidence.
West Point espcially values those who participate in TEAM sports. I am sure they have good reason.
Are there some bad apples? Sure. Those who are high profile athletes who turn bad get a lot of bad press. It is more "newsworthy".
The fact is those who enjoy and are good at team sports are especially suited to the structure of a military lifestyle. They understand the concept of the mission and the team and can translate that into the military mission.
If you gave me 10 bright, fit and eager kids who had never considered the military before and 5 were varisty athletes in a team sport (football, soccer, field hockey, ice hockey, lacrosse) and 5 never played on a team - I would bet on the team athletes.
First off, I would like to thank you for toning down your original comment which was much more critical of the vintage of my experience. Experience is a wonderful thing. We learn a lot from it. However, if we were forced to rely solely on experience, we would all be walking around with stove element burn scars etched into our hands. Also, I might remind you of the old Indian parable about the six blind men and the elephant. Each had a totally unique experience and they were all in complete disagreement. So there is more to education than experience. Also, hopefully, we should learn to look at things as a whole rather than from a few specific examples. Thousands of varsity lettered athletes are in the fleet. You are basing your conclusion on only one or two bad ones to the exclusion of the vast majority. Hopefully it is your emotions talking and you, in fact, know better.LineInTheSand said:
I intentionally left off the link to the statistics I quoted. There are several studies on the internet. One is even a NY Times article from 1920. Go find them. Read. Learn something.
LineInTheSand said:
Can’t imagine how you ascertained this. Data for studies is based on historical performance. And that is based on actual service member military performance, not putting someone ‘above the rest’ on a pedestal. They earned their performance marks and the fact that they are more likely to make the Navy a career, speaks for itself. You were admitted to USCGA based on who you were in high school. Various backgrounds predict future performance. We would be stupid not to know these backgrounds and take advantage of them.
LITS, you still have lots of things to learn. Take advantage of all avenues. Your limited parochial past experiences is only a small part.
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To quote you:
"football players in particular, do measurably better in the fleet both in performance"
Selective quoting, yes, but you said it.
Definition for "Better" - that which has greater excellence or is preferable or wiser.
Preferable? Well that is "more worthy."
I can't imagine why I would believe you were saying they are above someone else. And we all know, especially in the Navy, performance is the ticket.
It's true, I did tone done the first form of my orginial comment, having consulted the Service Et. Man., I wanted to leave age out of it, however, now that you brought up my apparent "limited parochial past experiences", I'll refrain from toning it down.
Your experiences, as a midshipman, ended almost four decades ago (yes...that's almost half a century). This was before women were admitted. They would have to wait another decade before one would even graduate. This was a different Navy, a different America, and a different time. Some things apply from half a century ago, other do not. While your comments regarding your experiences may be "fun" or "nice" or may reflect the "old" way of doing things, they are surely dated. Some things never change, however many things do.
I may have limited past experience, but my past experiences aren't so far in the past that they have little bearing on present day affairs.
I don't know what you were TRYING to say, I only know what you DID say. I would suggest maybe using words other than comparative ones next time. "Better" may not be the best word, especially when there are some glaring examples of how this isn't true.
"football players in particular, do measurably better in the fleet both in performance"
Selective quoting, yes, but you said it.
Definition for "Better" - that which has greater excellence or is preferable or wiser.
Preferable? Well that is "more worthy."
I can't imagine why I would believe you were saying they are above someone else. And we all know, especially in the Navy, performance is the ticket.
It's true, I did tone done the first form of my orginial comment, having consulted the Service Et. Man., I wanted to leave age out of it, however, now that you brought up my apparent "limited parochial past experiences", I'll refrain from toning it down.
Your experiences, as a midshipman, ended almost four decades ago (yes...that's almost half a century). This was before women were admitted. They would have to wait another decade before one would even graduate. This was a different Navy, a different America, and a different time. Some things apply from half a century ago, other do not. While your comments regarding your experiences may be "fun" or "nice" or may reflect the "old" way of doing things, they are surely dated. Some things never change, however many things do.
I may have limited past experience, but my past experiences aren't so far in the past that they have little bearing on present day affairs.
I don't know what you were TRYING to say, I only know what you DID say. I would suggest maybe using words other than comparative ones next time. "Better" may not be the best word, especially when there are some glaring examples of how this isn't true.
Okay, let me try again, keeping it simple and to the point. USNA and the Navy attempt to determine 'predictors' of anticipated performance. They have made studies, several from NPS grad student studies and available on the internet, to determine the corelation between undergraduate attributes and fleet performance. As determined by fitness report grades, they have determined that varsity lettered athletes, perform "better" than non athletes. Football players led the pack. As determined by resignation dates, they have determined that varsity lettered athletes remain on active duty longer than non athletes. Therefore they have a 'better' retention rate. If it makes you feel "better', there are a number of words you can use as a substitute for 'better'. I would also hope that the average reader would ascertain that I was speaking of the groups as a whole and certainly allow for specific exclusionary examples.
The above, I have learned from attending USNA briefings, talking with administrators, and reading from various sources. It has absolutely nothing to do with my personal experiences, who I went to school with, how much fun I had, or what the condition of the Navy was while I was active duty. You, however, used your limited parochial experience solely as the basis of your argument. The fact that they are limited and parochial is that they can in no way compensate for the amount of legitimate and pertinent information readily available to contradict your opinion. Also, I have no idea what the inclusion of your observations about 'my' experiences have to do with this discussion.
Perhaps we are contributing nothing further to the constructive nature of this thread and might cease the irrelavent critique of my background.
The above, I have learned from attending USNA briefings, talking with administrators, and reading from various sources. It has absolutely nothing to do with my personal experiences, who I went to school with, how much fun I had, or what the condition of the Navy was while I was active duty. You, however, used your limited parochial experience solely as the basis of your argument. The fact that they are limited and parochial is that they can in no way compensate for the amount of legitimate and pertinent information readily available to contradict your opinion. Also, I have no idea what the inclusion of your observations about 'my' experiences have to do with this discussion.
Perhaps we are contributing nothing further to the constructive nature of this thread and might cease the irrelavent critique of my background.
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"Perhaps we are contributing nothing further to the constructive nature of this thread and might cease the irrelavent critique of my background."
Bullet could have said the same thing when you attack his background.
Keeping it simple and to the point is a great idea, something I don't know many a Naval officer could live without, especially as I look out at the ship next to mine here, on this Navy base.
I don't care what dicussion you've had with any administrator from USNA. There aren't many branches out there allowing grads to go straight to Grad school after they get their commissions. That says something about the state of you officer corps, and possibly the product.
Do these vast studies go into the reason for people leaving the Navy? Does it calculate that perhaps the "brighter" students see what they would be worth on the outside. It's not uncommon for an admiral to comment that they were on academic probation. In fact the running joke was that the lower 50% of the class are the ones in the end with the stars, everyone else just got smart.
How is your study tracking performance, or is it only tracking retention?
Bullet could have said the same thing when you attack his background.
Keeping it simple and to the point is a great idea, something I don't know many a Naval officer could live without, especially as I look out at the ship next to mine here, on this Navy base.
I don't care what dicussion you've had with any administrator from USNA. There aren't many branches out there allowing grads to go straight to Grad school after they get their commissions. That says something about the state of you officer corps, and possibly the product.
Do these vast studies go into the reason for people leaving the Navy? Does it calculate that perhaps the "brighter" students see what they would be worth on the outside. It's not uncommon for an admiral to comment that they were on academic probation. In fact the running joke was that the lower 50% of the class are the ones in the end with the stars, everyone else just got smart.
How is your study tracking performance, or is it only tracking retention?
kp2001
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I am just going to step in and ask everybody to take a few deep breaths and try to return the thread to the original purpose of discussing an athletic recruit who isn't fully into the Academy.
I would ask everybody to remember to please treat each other with the due respect each individual deserves.
And now back to our original programming.......
I would ask everybody to remember to please treat each other with the due respect each individual deserves.
And now back to our original programming.......
Just_A_Mom
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^^^^^
Thanks KP2001.
Please take a minute to refresh yourselves with this forum's CoC part of which reads:
Please keep this fact based and on-topic. Please post only if you have something constructive to the conversation. The forum is to be of service to those parents who have children at, appointed to or who are considering applying to a service academy.
If you would like to debate the character flaws of academy football players that might be best on the "off topic" forum.
As KP2001 said - back to discussion athletic recruits who are not "fully into" the academy.............................
Thanks KP2001.
Please take a minute to refresh yourselves with this forum's CoC part of which reads:
Please keep this fact based and on-topic. Please post only if you have something constructive to the conversation. The forum is to be of service to those parents who have children at, appointed to or who are considering applying to a service academy.
If you would like to debate the character flaws of academy football players that might be best on the "off topic" forum.
As KP2001 said - back to discussion athletic recruits who are not "fully into" the academy.............................
Thunderbolt
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I'm sure the kid was just being modest... Ive seen way too many kids like that...
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"Please keep this fact based and on-topic."
Rgr, wilco.
In the end, it doesn't matter WHY they came, if they make it through, the same will be asked of them...unless....
They play pro-basketball and buy out their years. I think that would not be a fair use of an academy spot for someone who actually serves their country.
If they graduate and serve, I don't completely care about their motivation to join from the start, that's dynamic and it can change. If they weren't into it from the start and don't serve...that's a problem for me.
Rgr, wilco.
In the end, it doesn't matter WHY they came, if they make it through, the same will be asked of them...unless....
They play pro-basketball and buy out their years. I think that would not be a fair use of an academy spot for someone who actually serves their country.
If they graduate and serve, I don't completely care about their motivation to join from the start, that's dynamic and it can change. If they weren't into it from the start and don't serve...that's a problem for me.
One study which stands out is the promotion to O-4 for the classes of 1981-1985. I can think of no better gauge of performance than promotion and O-4 is the first rank that becomes somewhat selective. The collective rate for non-athletes was 77.2% while that of the 104 football players who graduated during this era was 94.1%, the highest of all team athletes. I would say that definitely the football players are, for lack of a better word, better performers.LineInTheSand said:
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LT(jg) LITS,
Sir, with all due respect, allow me to interject some personal experience and some anecdotal evidence that would tend to support USNA69's statitistics.
My son is a second try candidate for the Naval Academy. He was 3Q'ed and nominated last year and, unfortunately, was not selected for appointment.
He is a a smallish (5'11", 180 pound) player. He spent his high school career as an outside linebacker (at 160 pounds) and was selected for numerous team and conferance awards. When his dream was side tracked last year, he opted to go to college and play D3 football for at high tier college in PA. At the onset, he was told by the Coach and Defensive Coordinator that he would have to change to Safety. During June, July and August, before camp, he spent three days a week with a speed and agility trainer to improve his skills necessary to be successful at this new position. He was friends with the outgoing senior safety for this team and spent countless hours with him learning the program, before camp.
During his Fall Semester, carrying a full academic load, he would spend 18 hours a day, between football, class, homework, and study to be the best he could be in his multi-task environment. His tanacity, relentless desire to win, faith in the team, devotion to the team and focus towards his academics were laudable but not unexpected by those who know him.
In the end, he was a recognized leader of the team (as a Freshman) and managed a 3.3 CUM in his academics, highest of his freshmen teammates. Was he the best in academics at the college? Obviously not. Non sport scholars managed 4.0's. They received scholarship money for their excellence. My son received no additional scholarships. But he did received many slaps on the back from his team mates and coaches for a job well done. Priceless.
I guess the point is that team athletes are rarely the top 50% of their class but they are leaders that know how to bring out the best in their team, learn how to react correctly under extreme pressure, build loyalities, and always play to win. I believe that's what the academies look for and, what Officer Review Boards see in varsity athletes. Determination, Focus, and Team leaders. Sir, I'll ask you the question: What kind of leader are you for the sailors in your division? This is a rethorical question, I do not want an answer. From reading your entries I know.
Bottom Line:
Varsity athletes know how to buy into the culture. They know how to win. They know how to lead. All very successfully.
Sir, thank you for your time.
Sir, with all due respect, allow me to interject some personal experience and some anecdotal evidence that would tend to support USNA69's statitistics.
My son is a second try candidate for the Naval Academy. He was 3Q'ed and nominated last year and, unfortunately, was not selected for appointment.
He is a a smallish (5'11", 180 pound) player. He spent his high school career as an outside linebacker (at 160 pounds) and was selected for numerous team and conferance awards. When his dream was side tracked last year, he opted to go to college and play D3 football for at high tier college in PA. At the onset, he was told by the Coach and Defensive Coordinator that he would have to change to Safety. During June, July and August, before camp, he spent three days a week with a speed and agility trainer to improve his skills necessary to be successful at this new position. He was friends with the outgoing senior safety for this team and spent countless hours with him learning the program, before camp.
During his Fall Semester, carrying a full academic load, he would spend 18 hours a day, between football, class, homework, and study to be the best he could be in his multi-task environment. His tanacity, relentless desire to win, faith in the team, devotion to the team and focus towards his academics were laudable but not unexpected by those who know him.
In the end, he was a recognized leader of the team (as a Freshman) and managed a 3.3 CUM in his academics, highest of his freshmen teammates. Was he the best in academics at the college? Obviously not. Non sport scholars managed 4.0's. They received scholarship money for their excellence. My son received no additional scholarships. But he did received many slaps on the back from his team mates and coaches for a job well done. Priceless.
I guess the point is that team athletes are rarely the top 50% of their class but they are leaders that know how to bring out the best in their team, learn how to react correctly under extreme pressure, build loyalities, and always play to win. I believe that's what the academies look for and, what Officer Review Boards see in varsity athletes. Determination, Focus, and Team leaders. Sir, I'll ask you the question: What kind of leader are you for the sailors in your division? This is a rethorical question, I do not want an answer. From reading your entries I know.
Bottom Line:
Varsity athletes know how to buy into the culture. They know how to win. They know how to lead. All very successfully.
Sir, thank you for your time.
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I sit here in a port call having read your post and I wonder how exactly this applies to an academy. Yes, varsity atheletes have dedication, I had a letter in high school.
Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.
Thank you for your personal experience, but I do not see how it applies to the performance of officers from any branch, in the US Armed Forces.
Do I believe football players are superior in performance still? No. And that having visited a bar with a very respectable varsity football player I know.
Thank you for your personal experience, but I do not see how it applies to the performance of officers from any branch, in the US Armed Forces.
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USNA69, I disagree once again. O-3 selection still falls with in the 5 year commitment. O-4 selection however falls outside of the 5 years. Of the non-football officers who did not make O-4, how many voluntarily dropped out, and how many were not selected for LCDR/Major?
Are we selectively determining what these stats mean?
Are we selectively determining what these stats mean?
I am having more trouble than usual following your logic. Maybe it is due to it being 1AM during a port visit.
It is immaterial what "we" think. USNA has determined that the parameters are valid for viable predictions.
This data is only for those going before the O-4 board and does not include those who have already resigned. It is for those who have selected the Navy as a career. It is a snapshot of the 10 year mark for those in the classes of 1981-1985 who remain on active duty. Since my previous retention statistics were in the 50% range, it would seem obvious that percentages in the 78%-95% range would not include those who had resigned. I would think that Football players promoted at a 22% higher rate than non athletes proves better performance. Call it what you will. It seemed relatively straight forward to me (and to USNA leadership).
subsquid, thanks for your post. I, and many others, I am sure, see it as a very valid example of the effects of college football on an individual's personal and professional growth. Just as pertinent for NAVY athletics as a CGA courts martial, I would think. Maybe it is time to dig out all of General MacArthur's observations on Army football. It still applies, I guess to the consternation of a few. However, somehow, I feel that college athletics might not really be LITS'S issue here:
Hard to argue with logic such as this who also thinks subsquid's post is immaterial. Maybe subsquid's observation on your leadership capabilities might also flaw your definition of 'very respectable'. I think I am going to crawl back in my hole.
It is immaterial what "we" think. USNA has determined that the parameters are valid for viable predictions.
This data is only for those going before the O-4 board and does not include those who have already resigned. It is for those who have selected the Navy as a career. It is a snapshot of the 10 year mark for those in the classes of 1981-1985 who remain on active duty. Since my previous retention statistics were in the 50% range, it would seem obvious that percentages in the 78%-95% range would not include those who had resigned. I would think that Football players promoted at a 22% higher rate than non athletes proves better performance. Call it what you will. It seemed relatively straight forward to me (and to USNA leadership).
subsquid, thanks for your post. I, and many others, I am sure, see it as a very valid example of the effects of college football on an individual's personal and professional growth. Just as pertinent for NAVY athletics as a CGA courts martial, I would think. Maybe it is time to dig out all of General MacArthur's observations on Army football. It still applies, I guess to the consternation of a few. However, somehow, I feel that college athletics might not really be LITS'S issue here:
LineInTheSand said:
Hard to argue with logic such as this who also thinks subsquid's post is immaterial. Maybe subsquid's observation on your leadership capabilities might also flaw your definition of 'very respectable'. I think I am going to crawl back in my hole.
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