Aviation Service Obligation and ADSO

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Kim27, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Kim27

    Kim27 New Member

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    Hello everyone,

    So I just found out that I got Active Duty top 12%. I've been wanting Aviation and I'm all qualified for it. My question is: When exactly does my service obligation start if I branch AV? The day I commission, the day I go to AVOBC, or the day I finish there? Also, I heard adding an ADSO for AV will put give me like a 10 year service obligation? I'm all for doing a career in the Army if that's how things go, but I really don't want to lock myself in for longer than I have to. Can anyone shed any light on this?

    -Thanks
     
  2. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    If no one responds to this, PM Pima. I'm sure she can give you these details down to the gnat's eyelash.
     
  3. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Pima is a great source, but she comes from the Air Force perspective.

    My son branched Aviation last year.

    Here are the basics, I'll PM you with some more info.

    Your requirement will be 6 years for Aviation, it will start after you finish flight school. The average obligation time is between 7 and 8 years from the day you report to Ft. Rucker. Remember it could take from 2 weeks to nearly a year before you report to Ft. Rucker, it all depends on what report date they give you. All that I have mentioned is without an ADSO.

    I'll PM you with some more information.....some fun stuff.

    One more thing...Look for Scoutpilot, he is an Army Aviator and posts on this board
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
  4. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Yeah, don't ask Pima. Different rabbit hole.

    Thanks for thinking of the board's one lone Army Aviator. :cool:

    "ADSOing" for aviation is a route doing about 11 or 12 years in the Army. The Rucker bubbles aren't bad these days, so figuring 18 months start to finish is a safe bet. That makes for a 7.5 year initial ADSO, plus your additional ADSO, plus mandatory ADSOs for PCSing and promotions.

    At year 9 of my career, very few aviators are out yet.
     
  5. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Hey I snuck it in there...you just beat me to it.
     
  6. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Scoutpilot,

    Could you elaborate just a bit on the ADSO's for PCS'ing and promotions.

    I would imagine it's like my days in the USCG, "You want Hawaii, you give us 2 years", "You want LtCmdr, give us 3 years" am I on the right tracK?
     
  7. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Sorry guys! I see aviation and automatically think Pima. You are of course correct that she occupies a different rabbit hole. :smile:
     
  8. Kim27

    Kim27 New Member

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    Thanks for all the information folks! That's exactly the info I was looking for.
     
  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    FWIW, I would have said talk to Scout and Jcleppe.

    AF and Army obligations are two different things.

    Scout is your go to guy for AD Army aviation. He is right, wrong rabbit hole with my opinion. Honestly, my post would remain the same...go to Scout, he is AD Army aviation. I would also say talk to Jcleppe because Scout is AD, and Jcleppe's DS is recently commissioned.Scout and Jcleppe have 2 different perspectives.
    Using the math, you are looking at 30 on a good day before you can bolt.

    If I were you Kim I would pick Scout's brain on how it works regarding aviation in the Army regarding check rides, sims, etc when it comes to winging. He is the GO TO for Army. I would pick Jcleppe's brain for how the system is working now regarding new commissioned officers for the aviation pipeline.

    You are fortunate because you are a member of this site. Scout and Jcleppe will be brutally honest. I will say Scout and I have issues, but honestly, I respect him more than I can express. He calls a spade a spade. There is no sugar coating. Want to get a glimpse of how harsh it will be AD, rub Scout the wrong way!

    If there was hats off smilie I would give it to them for Army Aviation. I am only left with :worship::worship::worship::worship:
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
  10. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    No offense taken, I don't claim to know anything about the workings of the Aviation Branch.

    Scoutpilot came from West Point, WP has a much better network when prepping their cadets to PCS to Ft. Rucker. WP will have many cadets going Aviation, they get the chance to compare notes, arrange off base housing together. Army ROTC cadets do not have that benefit, across the country maybe only 120 plus ROTC cadets go Army Aviation and they show up at different times throughout the year. My son is the only cadet in his class from the NW region.

    The only thing I have to offer is some of the in's and out's my son went through getting ready to leave and checking in, issues with housing and moving among them. My son's PMS was an Aviation Officer, he gave him what advice he could, most of it terribly out dated, by no means his fault, he is a wonderful PMS. Most of the information my son found came form a lot of phone calls and research.

    I agree completely, if the OP wants information regarding the Aviation Branch, Scoutpilot is the guy to talk to.

    The only thing I can offer is information my son found before and after arriving.
     
  11. Kim27

    Kim27 New Member

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    Thanks

    If anyone happens to still look at this thread I thought I would just let you know that I did get Aviation and I didn't need my ADSO, so I guess that makes my commitment only 6 years? Now I suppose I just have to graduate and wait for AVOBC. However long that will be?
     
  12. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Congratulations on getting Aviation, my son is at Ft. Rucker/Flight School now, your in for quite a ride.

    One thing to keep in mind, your 6 year obligation does not start until you have completed Flight School. Given that Flight School can take anywhere from 18 to 24 months your total service obligation will be close to 8 years, and it all doesn't start until your report.
     
  13. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Scout, Jcleppe...

    I'm trying to get a sense of how the timing and ADSO tradeoffs work over the first 5-6 years for newly commissioned 2LTs.

    Assuming OP reports to flight school on 9/1/12, when would OP then start the clock on the 6 yr. ADSO? I believe somebody wrote flight school is 18 months long, so that would put OP at 3/1/14 + 6 = 3/1/22. Is that correct?

    I assume then that ADSO for IN or MI or any of the other 15 Branches starts when that xBOLC is over, which takes 4-5 months, correct?

    I am going to guess that "PCSing" is when an Officer is required to increase the original ADSO in exchange for approval to transfer to a more desirable Permanent Duty Station, correct? How many months/years does that add to the original ADSO?

    Regarding Promotions and ADSO, what does this refer to exactly? If a LT is getting ready for Captain's Career Course after 36 or so months in Active Duty, does attending Captain's Career Course obligate the LT to take more years of ADSO, and if so, about how many?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  14. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Your correct about the timing for Aviation, the 6 years starts at the completion of Flight School, so if flight school ends up being 20 months then the total obligation would be 7 years and 8 months.

    Your also correct about the ADSO for PCSing. I have heard it is anywhere from 2 to 3 years. Scout will correct me if I'm wrong.

    I do not believe there is an ADSO for the Captain's course, but again I could be wrong. I know a Major that took an ADSO of 3 years before being promoted.

    I am not sure that every other branch works the same as Aviation as far as when the service obligation starts.
     
  15. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    I must admit, you have a perversely deep interest in the mechanics of the Army.

    The ADSO for all the other branches begins when the officer in question is accessed onto active duty. For USMA grads, that's the day of graduation.

    Aviators are subject to a separate rule:

    "e. Officers who attend initial entry flight training on or after 30 September 1990 will incur a 6-year ADSO on completion of the course or voluntary termination of attendance (see AR 611–110). Officers who entered into a service
    agreement before 1 October 1990, will be subject to the terms of said agreement, and will serve on active duty for the period specified in the agreement."​

    The length of flight school varies. They have eliminated a lot of the bubbles that were plaguing the system, but the reality is that it's 12 to 24 months, depending on airframe and training bubbles.

    PCSing is a mandatory 1 yr ADSO for CONUS to CONUS moves and intra-command moves. OCONUS PCS incurs an ADSO commensurate with the prescribed tour length at that duty station (1 to 3 yrs, depending). Different PCS's incur different ADSOs.

    The CCC incurs the usual military education ADSO of 3-to-1 days owed. If a LT or CPT goes at 36 months, that ADSO will be served concurrent with his remaining 2 years of commissioning ADSO.

    This is the pertinent paragraph:


    "a. Officers who attend a CCC will immediately incur a military schooling ADSO and an additional PCS ADSO, as described at paragraph 2–6 above, in connection with follow-on assignment. The ADSOs are incurred on the first day of attendance at any element of the consecutive specialized training required for the CCC, regardless of whether the officer completes the CCC or any such element. The military schooling ADSO ends and the PCS ADSO begins on the date of arrival at the new duty station, following completion or termination of the CCC, or on the scheduled completion date of consecutive specialized training required for CCC, whichever is later. An officer who does not wish to incur the additional ADSOs may submit a separation or resignation request (see para 2–6d, above) within 30 days of notification of selection for attendance at any element of the CCC."

    The exact rules for all ADSOs are readily available in AR 350-100.​

    Of note, aviators incur an additional ADSO of 3 years for accepting an aircraft transition, unless it is a special operations aircraft which is a 4-year ADSO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I see every one is in the nitty gritty now, one other curve ball to throw...if the AD member uses TA for their Masters. TA is a great asset for the military member since they pay 75% of the tuition.

    It is highly unlikely that they will start grad school before they have 1 yr under their belt, if it takes 18-24 months to push out their Masters, and they take TA, they will owe 3 yrs (concurrent with original), but that now places them at 6 yrs AD.

    1 yr no TA + 2 yrs TA + 3 yrs owed equals 6.

    As scout pointed out during this time they can PCS you, which is also concurrent with the TA, but the importance is to understand by taking TA you moved the commitment out voluntarily to 6 yrs. If they move you at 4 1/2 yrs to Germany for 3 yrs you are on the hook for the duration of that assignment, you can't bolt at 6.

    This now becomes a bigger issue because it is hard to interview for jobs stateside from Germany, thus, you accept a stateside assignment, and now you are at 10 yrs. 10 you are married, have a baby, a mtg, 2 car payments, pre-school, and stationed at Ft. Bragg, also you are up for O4 and get it. You want to move back to Cali, do you not accept the promotion and take the chance of getting a job, or do you accept it?

    Accept it, you accept another commitment.

    You accept it and they send you to CGSC, you owe more time. School is 1 yr, so you PCS and owe more time again. Now you are at 14 yrs. before you can bolt. You are also 1 yr BPZ for O5.

    14 yrs and retirement at 20, 50% pay for the rest of your life is right in front of you. Do you bolt, or do you 2-3 more tours, setting up the last tour to be your retirement tour (where you want to live after AD)? 50% of O5 pay is pretty sweet, along with healthcare and the other bennies you get as a retire compared to an O4 that separated, such as commissary, PX, space A, etc.

    I just took any cadet out to 20 yrs AD in a blink of an eye from a logical standpoint.

    I have AF, Navy and Army friends, very few bolted at the 4 and door or 5 and dive. Commitments and life kept getting in the way. The ones that did bolt, planned from day 1 how to bolt at the earliest opportunity. Others left at the O4 marker, but the majority left at 20.


    Scout,

    Is there a pilot bonus for Army aviators? If so when is it offered? AF offers it at the 7 yr marker, and they must stay in until the 14 yr pt. There currently is a 2nd bonus offered at the 15 if they stay until 21-22 yrs.

    I know, I know, strange, stupid, waste of money. AF pilots owe 11 yrs. and at 7 they give them a 6 figure check to stay until 14. Seriously, IMPO, it is fraud, waste and abuse. They take it, make O5 and are on the hook until 20, but they hand them another check for 5-6 more yrs. They would have been on the hook anyway for accepting the promotion. Another fraud, waste and abuse.

    I love the AF, but I call a spade a spade. This is not sour grapes, Bullet got a bonus too. I just think it is a waste of money to offer it to military members with 15 yrs in. I get the bonus to 14 yrs. It is hard to walk away as an aviator making 100K, and earn 40K with SWA or Delta when you have a house,cars and kids.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Welcome to the forum, but honestly blasting every thread won't get you more answers than just creating a thread. You posted this on an Army thread that is about AD time commitments, yet you want Navy.
     
  18. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    That is incorrect. The ADSO is 2 years, per AR 350-100, Paragraph 2-8 Section D:

    d. ​
    Officers who accept tuition assistance (TA) under AR 621–5 incur an ADSO of 2 years on completion or termination of the education program.



    Incorrect. There is no ADSO for accepting a promotion. Per 350-100...

    2–5. Promotion​
    a. ​
    A warrant officer who accepts a promotion to the grade of CW3, CW4, or CW5, incurs a 2-year ADSO. This ADSO begins on the date of promotion and must be served before voluntary retirement.

    b. ​
    A commissioned officer who accepts a promotion does not incur an ADSO. However, an officer in the grade of lieutenant colonel or colonel must serve in that grade for not less than 3 years from the date of promotion to voluntarily retire in that grade unless waived under some other provision of law. An officer promoted to the grade of lieutenant, captain, or major must serve in that grade for not less than 6 months from the date of promotion to voluntarily retire in that grade.


    Possibly. CGSC is not a given, as captains are boarded for CGSC concurrent with their promotion board. An officer may not receive a CGSC slot, or may decline it if offered while still accepting the promotion.

    Theoretically true, but it's important to point out that the 50% is only of the base pay. For most, base pay is only about 60% of what they take home every month. The rest is BAH/BAS and incentive pays. So folks should realize that retirement pay is more like 1/3 of your usual paycheck at the end of your career. Also, it is not calculated on your base pay of your last rank. Rather, for all us young bucks who joined after 1980 (believe it or not, two guys I work with joined before 1980) we are on the "high 3" system which means they average your highest 36 months of base pay to compute your retiree final pay, then give you 50% of that.

    As for the PX and commissary, they are technically retiree privileges. I find them both to be next to worthless and don't shop at them now. That is personal preference, though.

    Yes. Aviation Career Incentive Pay (ACIP) begins when an aviator begins his time as a Non-rated Student Pilot, which is the first flight they take in flight school. As a young aviator it isn't much. For those with less than 2 years flying, it's $125 monthly, with meager increases until an aviator completes 6 years, at which point it jumps to $650 monthly. It tops out at $850 after the 14th year. It is not automatic, however, as the years are based on performing actual flying assignments. Simply being in aviation branch does not qualify one for continuing or increased ACIP.
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Scout,

    I am not talking flight pay, I am talking a bonus on top of flight pay.

    AF gives 125K (last I recalled), 50% up front, 50% split the next 7 yrs., paid every October in a lump sum. Every Oct 1st we got @9500 after taxes for yrs. dumped into our account, along with the 850 flight pay. That was what I was asking. Does the Army have a bonus like that? I am not trying to slam the Army, as I stated, I think it is fraud, waste and abuse. I was just curious to learn if only the AF does this.

    In the AF world they call it gate months regarding the flight pay you are talking about. You have to fly X amt of months in a certain time frame to meet your 1st gate. Than you have to fly X amt of months in a larger time frame to meet your 2nd gate. After 22 yrs (I think) your flight pay drops from the 850 to 645 (?), regardless of yrs flying. It appears the AF and Army have the same program regarding flying for flight pay.

    I know Bullet when he stepped out of the airframe (jump ALO 82nd---O3, CGSC-- O4, Pentagon---O5) AFMPC placed him as a priority to put him back in the jet to meet his gates. He actually had enough gate months that he flew a desk at the Pentagon after CGSC, his AF peers didn't so they got a flying slot out of CGSC.

    As far as the assignment commitment, I will bow to you. Bullet's career was FTU, (O1-O2) Overseas (O2-O3), stateside (82nd ---- TA), overseas (AK) , stateside (O4 pinned on), PME, stateside, (O5 promotion), stateside.


    Honestly, he couldn't have bolted even if he wasn't a WSO at the 6 yr pt. He accepted a stateside at 5 yr marker, owing 6, he than did TA which took him out past the end of his Bragg tour. Than we were sent overseas, where he was selected for O4, and accepted at which point 20 months later he was selected for CGSC. Took CGSC and owed time. PCS'd 1 yr later, and was DP for O5. Took it because now he had 15 yrs in. Who throws 50% of base pay for the rest of their life away for 1 more move?

    That is my point. You can pull every reg up, but when push comes to shove, life gets in the way and it is hard to give up a paycheck for the unknown back stateside when you are stationed at Camp Red Cloud.

    You don't know where they will send you, and to assume you can bolt 4 yrs from your commissioning date is not IMPO realistic. Be prepared to plan your career if you want to bolt at the 1st opportunity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  20. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    The Army offers bonuses for warrant officers in critical skill areas with the requisite time in service. Generally it is reserved for MTPs and IPs over the 18 year mark, and requires them to stay through 24 years. Special Operations warrants get $125k for every 6-year contract they sign after their initial six years of flight time.
     

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