Aviation

[scoutpilot]

The "issued eyewear" aren't BCGs, I hope?

So, would contacts be not allowed?

Never mind about flying a helicopter for the President lol...just found out the responsibility of transporting the President is given to the Marine Corop :\

No, they are not the eyewear you will be issued in Beast.

Yes, it's given to the Marines. Hence the name "Marine One."

 

[Mongo]

The Army wants 6K/95 HOGE capability at MGW.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

[scoutpilot]

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

And why is that?

 

[Mongo]

And why is that?

Well, either you are back again in the situation which you are complaining about now:

Hell, it doesn't need beefier engine. There's almost 40% more power built into the engine already. If they'd give it a better transmission, they'd be able to use the extra 200 SHP they had to down-rate out of the engine.

Or you have so much HIGE Standard Day power that the published MGWs become a joke and pilots start making their own.

Either eat gear boxes or overload the aircraft.

 

[scoutpilot]

Well, either you are back again in the situation which you are complaining about now:



Or you have so much HIGE Standard Day power that the published MGWs become a joke and pilots start making their own.

Either eat gear boxes or overload the aircraft.

We're talking about a Type I aircraft here. It lacks a cargo area and is a dedicated scout/attack platform. There's really not much a pilot can do to overgross it besides fuel/ammo. I have no doubt that the desire for those specs to be met includes a full load and accordingly adjusted MGW. I suppose maybe if the left-seater brought his pet rock collection with him in the aft electrical compartment, maybe?

Don't know what kind of operations you've flown in, but published MGW is a big deal in Army Aviation, and is not something that any PC I've known in ANY airframe is willing to exceed on a whim regardless of power margin. If that were the case, there'd be an awful lot of dead CH-47 and CH-54 pilots.

You'll note that Gray Hog mentioned that Bell is proposing a beefier driveline as well. Last I checked, that includes the transmission. I have a hard time not laughing at your notion that taking an aircraft with a dangerously low power margin as it is and giving it proper performance and modernization to place it on par with other currently fielded aircraft is somehow a recipe for disaster.

 

[Mongo]

Just pointing out that a typical helicopter pilot at MGW wallowing into the sky does not normally have the luxury of an extra armpit full of collective to play with and that it might present a few challenges. It is not a situation associated with the H-47 or H-53 community.

I wouldn’t even venture a guess what percentage of power would be required to HIGE at sea level on a standard day as compared to a 95 degree 6500’ pressure altitude. My guess would be around 50%. Do you beef up the transmission to handle this power which you will never need and add weight or do you expect the pilots to manually ‘govern’ the power. One, in a hot situation, lends itself to over-torqued transmissions. The other leads to possible MGW abuse. Knowing that you have armpit loads of power left, how many troops are you going to leave on the ground when you reach MGW during an emergency extraction/medivac, etc?

 

[scoutpilot]

Just pointing out that a typical helicopter pilot at MGW wallowing into the sky does not normally have the luxury of an extra armpit full of collective to play with and that it might present a few challenges. It is not a situation associated with the H-47 or H-53 community.

I wouldn’t even venture a guess what percentage of power would be required to HIGE at sea level on a standard day as compared to a 95 degree 6500’ pressure altitude. My guess would be around 50%. Do you beef up the transmission to handle this power which you will never need and add weight or do you expect the pilots to manually ‘govern’ the power. One, in a hot situation, lends itself to over-torqued transmissions. The other leads to possible MGW abuse. Knowing that you have armpit loads of power left, how many troops are you going to leave on the ground when you reach MGW during an emergency extraction/medivac, etc?

So CH-47s don't ever reach MGW and takeoff on a hot humid day? I bet that's news to a lot of CH-47 pilots. I'm sure none of them ever flew on a cool day with a light aircraft and then suddenly found themselves, not too much later, with a heavy aircraft in a High DA condition.

Ok, you're clearly missing a few important points here.

One, you will not leave troops on the ground, as you will not do an emergency MEDEVAC (it would not be MEDEVAC anyway, but CASEVAC, and the cockpit makes transporting critically wounded patients more dangerous than anyone wants to undertake). We are talking about an OH-58D that barely has room for its two pilots and a helmet bag. Now, if pilots do face the issue of having to self-extract a downed crew, MGW could obviously be a factor but the bottom line is that you can only physically fit two personnel on the UWPs for extraction. In the event of MGW issues, the pilots jettison the weapons. Again, you're not paying attention. This is an aircraft with NO CARGO BAY and NO PASSENGER CAPACITY. It has dedicated hardpoints which hold an array of weapons of a known type and weight. Increasing the MGW from the current weight would not affect that pilot's ability to load the aircraft any higher.

The OH-58D community has been flying with power margin issues for years. The things you're identifying as "problems" are simple power management issues that have been a part of the lift helicopter world since the beginning. The gun world faces fewer such issues, but pilots nonetheless are aware of power margins, and I can personally testify to many FARP turns where we had to make the hard call between bullets and gas.

Do I expect pilots to manually "govern" the power? Yes. Pilots engage in power management every day. That's why they're called pilots and not paid passengers.

 

[Mongo]

So CH-47s don't ever reach MGW and takeoff on a hot humid day?

Reread my statement. I stated just the opposite. That they always operate in this envelop.

For the remainder, I think we are saying the same thing, just in a different way. Perhaps you haven’t been around long enough to appreciate the old helo pilot axiom that helicopter pilots are brooding, pessimistic introverts. They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to.
Or its first derivative, A helicopter doesn't want to fly; it just wants to kill you.

 

[Gray Hog]

Guys, while I personally really like the pilot talk (and I am guilty of getting in the weeds of it myself in this thread), I think we have strayed from anything which is of much value to someone interested in learning about the branch.

If I were in high school reading this, I might say to myself, "Aviation sounds kinda cool, but Army pilots sure seem to be a bunch of dorks."

 

[scoutpilot]

Perhaps you haven’t been around long enough to appreciate the old helo pilot axiom that helicopter pilots are brooding, pessimistic introverts.

Ah, the truth comes out. A guy who thinks he knows more than someone he assumes is less experienced because of his age. Considering you don't know me from Adam's housecat, you'd be better advised to avoid such assumptions (as we all are, no doubt). I'm glad you think you're old and wise. Just remember that the term "old fool" exists for a reason. Beware of which category people will place you in.

If you have something to offer these cadets about Army Aviation, feel free. Otherwise, let's consider the conversation closed.

 

[Mongo]

Ah, the truth comes out. A guy who thinks he knows more than someone he assumes is less experienced because of his age. Considering you don't know me from Adam's housecat, you'd be better advised to avoid such assumptions (as we all are, no doubt). I'm glad you think you're old and wise. Just remember that the term "old fool" exists for a reason. Beware of which category people will place you in.

Why do you think the most mishap-prone part of a military pilot's career is in the 1300-1500 hr flight time regime? Have you gotten there yet?

I agree. Nothing more can come of this.

 

[scoutpilot]

Why do you think the most mishap-prone part of a military pilot's career is in the 1000-1200 hr flight time regime? Have you gotten there yet?

I agree. Nothing more can come of this.

Yes. Though I'll stop short of posting my flight records, I amassed just over 1700 hours (with 760 PC hours and 505 NVG hours) between home station and Iraq. So you might say I actually know my way around an OH-58D, even in engine-limited situations.

I'm sure if you're that concerned, Gray Hog can point you to the good people of the aerospace industry who'd be happy to take your expertise into consideration.