'Best and brightest' article from hometownannapolis.com

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by cabarle, Jan 30, 2011.

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  1. cabarle

    cabarle Parent

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  2. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Quite a revealing article, but not a surprise. Nor is it anything we didn't know before, other than the shocking example of a 410 math score or a 370 verbal score being admitted. :eek:

    And the quote from the Admissions Officer about "leadership skills" was revealing as well - "The Naval Academy's argument is 'They have leadership skills,' " the officer said. "That is pure B.S. 'Leadership' is never discussed by the admissions board. We need another (football player) or African-American, plain and simple."
     
  3. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    I think it is a surprise to those on this site that have long claimed the increase in minority enrollment at the USNA was not the result of lower admissions standards or a two track admissions process. It also explains why it required a Freedom of Information Act request to force the USNA to release these stats.
     
  4. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    A few years back, the air force get hammered for having their prep school be a farm club for athletes. They went through a lot to clean it up. I do know that it is still primarily minorities and women; and I'm sure some athletes. But the athletes portion I don't believe is anything like how it use to be. And nothing near what the navy article demonstrates. I don't know the numbers, so I won't try to guess. But I can say that for air force footbal; academy class of 2012 (This year's juniors); when my son entered the academy (He had already received an appointment prior to being recruited); that a very small percentage of the 55-60 kids who were recruited football players that year, only a handful or so came from the prep-school.

    So while I believe that the air force has cleaned up most of their "Athletic Farm Club" issues with the prep-school. I do know that more minorities/including women, do go through the prep school. I don't know if most of them are there based on the accepted policy of: "Overall, they are a quality candidate, but they are weak academically only in a particular area". That's the way it's suppose to be. And I know one individual, who is a junior now, who is doing quite well at the academy. GPA in the mid 3's. Minority who went to the prep school. For him, even as a minority, he seems to have been exactly what the prep school was in fact designed for.

    So I'm very concerned with articles like this one stated. I believe that while air force may not use it as an athletic farm club as much, it is still being used to get minorities and such in that normally could never get in. Like I said; some I know are doing real well, and seemed to be exactly what the prep-school was designed for. But I don't have actual stats. Just isolated examples. And I'm sure that if there's an athlete they want, and s/he happens to be a minority, then it would be real simply to get them into the prep-school and then the academy.

    It is sad, when there are so many qualified individuals from the initial pool of 10,000+ applicants. However; I also understand the need and importance for diversity. Yes, it is important. And with whites still the vast majority of applicants (Doesn't matter about the population, just that whites are the majority of applicants); then mathematically, whites will receive a lot more appointments than blacks, hispanics, asians, etc... And if the incoming class isn't somewhere close to the national demographic culture, that could be cause for concern. I personally would have a problem if the true top-1300 candidates were given appointments, and all but say 100 were white men. It might seem fair, based on the applicants, but it wouldn't make for the best class of cadets and future officers.

    So, there really needs to be a balance between diversity and quality. I've never had a problem with some form of diversity, as long as the standards were somewhat maintained. Diversity does go beyond skin color. "I know it does for the air force academy". They use economic, social, single parent, 1st/2nd generation citizen, etc... I think this important. We need urban, suburban, farm/ranch, midwest, coast, rich, poor, etc... for an officer corp. That's what the enlisted corp will be; it makes sense that the officer corp is similar. However; I don't believe in reducing substantially or eliminating standards to reach these goals. E.g. a 450 SAT score is simply unacceptable. I don't care if you're athlete or minority, or both.
     
  5. futureAFA

    futureAFA Member

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    That is kind of frustrating to see some of the quotes and statistics shown. I think they should seriously consider focusing less on diversity, and more on merit.
     
  6. Casey

    Casey USMA 2015

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    Thing is though, this isn't a problem that the Academies are facing alone. If you are WASP, especially on the male side, when it comes to college applications, it can be a major disadvantage as you really need the outstanding "hook" to stand out above your peers, and that's when you start getting into the whole "reverse discrimination" thing. I don't really have an answer for it; based on statistics, there have definitly been studies that correlate skin color with SAT scores (because that test is obviously a good indicator of anything...) but that's a poor way to look at people's aptitude since there are obviously bright people from all different kinds of ethnicities. Really, IMO, the SAT is a good test to see how much money and time you have to put into to prep for it, and not much else.
     
  7. jtoye

    jtoye NAPS '12 appointee

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    NAPS and USNA are opportunitties to train, go to school, and earn a commision. If someone works hard and makes good on those opportunitties I don't see how you can say they didn't deserve them. Which boils down to who should be the ones admitted. To which their is no definite answer. Like Casey said lots of Universities are trying to balance diversity with URMs and Women along with having the best qualified class. It is even harder with SA's since they are not just evaluating students but future officers and trying to predict how well they will do in a challenging environment while still representing our nation's diversity. There is no perfect admissions formula or if someone has it they ought to speak up.
     
  8. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Absolutely no evidence of a two track admissions process. I think the only discussion here is the role of NAPS and is the Superintendent allowed to use it as directed by
    CNO to meet the needs of the Navy.

     
  9. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Now that the USNA has been forced to release the actual numbers I'm sure that any reasonably intelligent person can review them and make a decision for themselves regarding this question. The argument that there isn't a two track admissions process just because the USNA says there isn't may not hold up after reviewing the stats and comments made by people that actually sat on the admissions board.
     
  10. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Nothing in the stats that does not support entirely what USNA has been saying and, yep, we have another lone anonymous source.

    Where do you feel the stats show a two-tiered system?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  11. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Gee, I can't understand why a Naval Officer might want to remain anonymous. Considering the USNA treated a civilian tenured professor so fairly, why would a Naval Officer need to be concerned?
    Who/what is the U.S. Office of Special Counsel? Seems to be a Federal agency:
    "The U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC) is an independent federal investigative and prosecutorial agency. Our basic authorities come from four federal statutes: the Civil Service Reform Act, the Whistleblower Protection Act, the Hatch Act, and the Uniformed Services Employment & Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA).

    "..USNA illegally.."? I am outraged that the USNA and "illegally" is used in the same sentence. Certainly if "USNA Mid" and "illegally" were used in the same sentence many would expect dire consequences for the Mid.
     
  12. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Nice try. Good luck.:rolleyes:
     
  13. Chockstock

    Chockstock "Forever One Team"

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    I think it makes sense that the academies try and accept a class that reflects the population of the US and the enlisted corp but I think its wrong when used as a part of affirmative action. I'm pretty sure that most Americans and American soldiers prefer qualified officers over officers of a certain race and I think thats what matters in the long run too.

    I've been at USMA for barely half a year and already I've seen issues that this article brings up, seeing people who came here for the wrong reasons leave and seeing people trying to come here for the wrong reasons back home. I have prepster friends struggling to keep their heads above the water when it comes to academics. I know they exist here but I also wonder if the issues raised by the USNA are as serious as they are there when compared to USMA.

    The academies are all hypocritical, but I don't really see a solution to the problem unless they either lower the academic standards or change the mission statements to better reflect who they accept and why. Since playing Div I and the degrees are a lot more attractive for recruits and the revenue from the games are attractive for the SA's, its a win-win situation that the SA's are probably willing to gloss over and probably never change. I guess its kind of disturbing that officials and officers working at USNA (or any other SA for that matter) would pretty much tell a lie about admissions :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  14. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    :jerry:

    Usually a boring Sunday afternoon, the Sunday before the Superbowl. Guess this will have to do for entertainment.... :thumb:
     
  15. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Anonymous sources, disgruntled faculty, everyone has an opinion. We can only agree or disagree based on the facts (stats). You stated that they proved a two-tiered system. I don't see it at all. Could you enlighten me please or are you here just to cast unfounded stones?

    And what are these lies?
     
  16. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    The story, the stats and the multiple inside sources stand on their own and present a dismal view of the USNA admissions process. Interpret them how you choose. Again, I'm sure that any reasonably intelligent person can review the article and stats and make a decision for themselves regarding this question.
     
  17. Chockstock

    Chockstock "Forever One Team"

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    Doesn't sound like complete truthfulness to me
     
  18. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    This?
    You do not believe that some high school students exhibit great leadership skills who would benefit with an extra year of academic preparation? USNA, nor any of the other SAs, has ever attempted to hide the fact that some are minorities and some are athletes. Or that athletes and minorities benefit about equally with the majority as career officers.

    With the following statement, the 'anonymous source' lost all credibility with me:
     
  19. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    • The admissions data proves non-qualified minority students are being accepted to NAPS, virtually guaranteeing an appointment the following year, over qualified non-minority students.
    • The data proves that those same minority students are being admitted with SAT scores remarkably lower than those of non-minority students.
    • The data proves that NAPS is being used to provide over 50% of the Div1 football team and 75% of the lacrosse team, and that current NAPS enrollment is over 33% recruited athletes.

    And finally, to prove beyond any reasonable doubt of a two-tired admissions policy:
    • 75% of minority appointments went to scores below 600 while only 25% of appointments went to non-minority applicants with scores below 600.
    • Ninety-one (91) percent of qualified African Americans and 82 percent of qualified Hispanics were offered seats in the Classes of 2012-2014, compared to 55 percent of qualified whites.

    These are facts. They are not double-speak, spin, speculation, or conjecture.

    A simple reading of the data is incredibly enlightening to any anyone who actually wants to know the truth and not the spin.
     
  20. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Considering this statement was made by a former admissions board member and career officer, perhaps you could share your own first hand experiences while serving on the USNA admissions board? What was said about leadership?
     
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