'Best and brightest' article from hometownannapolis.com

[Mongo]

Considering this statement was made by a former admissions board member and career officer, perhaps you could share your own first hand experiences while serving on the USNA admissions board? What was said about leadership?

First and foremost, every record is evaluated by the Admissions administrative staff. Every single item presented on the application is there for one of two reasons; the ability to perform academically and leadership potential. To simply make it to the board ensures that a candidate possesses adequate leadership ability. Unless someone on the board questions it, the leadership as presented on the application stands on its own.

 

[Luigi59]

The data, obtained under FOIA request by The Annapolis Capital, is shown below for those who are interested in the truth. The proof of a two-tiered system is right here:

SAT score averages by ethnicity, who attends NAPS, and a timeline graph on minorities admitted


Admission statistics by ethnicity for the classes of 2012-14

 

[aglages]

Unless someone on the board questions it, the leadership as presented on the application stands on its own.

So you say.

Again, what have you personally heard discussed about leadership during your time on the USNA admissions board that would cause you to doubt the credibility of a former admissions board member and career officer?

 

[Mongo]

To start:

75% of minority appointments went to scores below 600 while only 25% of appointments went to non-minority applicants with scores below 600.

From the remainder of the article. 4101 total Caucasians of which 521 went to NAPS (13%). 312 Blacks of which 180 went to NAPS (58%). So 12% of Caucasian direct entries had one or both SAT scores below 600 which is only 17% of direct entries.. 25%/75%, a lot more dramatic than 12%/17%, isn’t it? Look at the charts which accompany the article:

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/photos/110130usnaadmissions1.pdf

Minority averages are usually within 50 points of the majority. In three of four categories, Caucasians actually posted the low SAT average.

Ninety-one (91) percent of qualified African Americans and 82 percent of qualified Hispanics were offered seats in the Classes of 2012-2014, compared to 55 percent of qualified whites.

USNA does indeed recruit qualified blacks in districts which are historically underrepresented. This explains the increase of direct entries over the past two years. They will not waste their time with a candidate in a competitive district who has no chance of admission. Forty or so identified underrepresented districts last year, 40 direct appointments. Not a coincidence.

If we want to discuss recruiting of one group over another, great. If we want to discuss utilizing NAPS primarily to meet the needs of the Navy as directed by higher authority, great. A two-tiered system, show me your interpretation of the stats.

 

[luckymacy]

The story, the stats and the multiple inside sources stand on their own and present a dismal view of the USNA admissions process. Interpret them how you choose. Again, I'm sure that any reasonably intelligent person can review the article and stats and make a decision for themselves regarding this question.

Aglages, I agree with everything I've read that you've written so far on this, unfortunately. From the story, this sounds like a 2 tier school to me. The bottom 25 % isn't new though, is it? In the pre big money sports past, I'm sure it happened. Would John McCain have gotten in on merit alone?

The Naval Academy is becoming two separate schools, he said in an interview.

"Twenty-five percent of the class who come here will knock your socks off - and 25 percent will keep you in tears," because of their inability to process information, he said.

Kid from our high school is at NAPS now. C student in high school. He is a beast on the football field, man among boys type of deal, and stood out even in this very strong college recruited football area. He's also African American. It was a surprise he was going to USNA. He graduated with my daughter and she said everyone thought he was going to a more serious football college. Was not thought of as a bright lite off the field and he would unfortunately fall into the negative stereotype backdoor entry this story reports. Hate to say this stuff is really true but my son, who was showed around this week at USNA by a prior NAP student read this article and shrugged saying all the kids there know this is true but they want a good football team too. Keeps fall a lot funner.

 

[Mongo]

So you say.

Again, what have you personally heard discussed about leadership during your time on the USNA admissions board that would cause you to doubt the credibility of a former admissions board member and career officer?

I know first hand what information that is presented to the board and how it is presented. I have been honored to be allowed to observe two separate boards operate for an entire day each. I have seen the records of both minorities and athletes examined. It is impossible for a board to evaluate a record without considering leadership fully.

So I say.

 

[Mongo]

"Twenty-five percent of the class who come here will knock your socks off - and 25 percent will keep you in tears," because of their inability to process information, he said.

Changing a few numbers slightly, isn't this the definition of a bell curve.

 

[blueridge]

How many LOA's went to athletes?

It appears that many of those who have a letter of assurance for the class of 2015 are athletes, from reading the posts here. I would love to know the numbers. My DS has been working toward his goal of an appointment to the USNA for years. His girlfriend (Tennis) got a letter this fall from USNA asking that she come and talk to them. She has no interest in a military academy, has never approached the USNA, etc.
The leadership issue concerns me, as that is DS's big asset...leadership skills and pretty decent academics. We actually had a dear friend (USAF) tell him, that USNA and USAFA do not produce leaders, and that his best leaders are grads of universities with strong ROTC programs. He encouraged him to go ROTC because he wants to see his leadership capabilities groomed.
Thanks for sharing this article.

 

[luckymacy]

Another interesting thing my son talked about from his CVW visit, Capt Honors from the Enterprise. Mids apparently talked about it a lot and passionately. Almost all thought what he did was OK for the time he did it. Upper brass just being Politically Correct and hypcritical about it now. I didn't see that one coming from the visit. I had kind of forgotten about it. I DID ask about the spice thing and he said he never heard anyone say a thing about that nor the two drunk kids from the earlier story!

 

[Mongo]

The rest:

• The admissions data proves non-qualified minority students are being accepted to NAPS, virtually guaranteeing an appointment the following year, over qualified non-minority students.
  
  To the best of my knowledge, there is no minimum qualification for NAPS
  
  
• The data proves that those same minority students are being admitted with SAT scores remarkably lower than those of non-minority students.
  
  If ones definition of 'remarkably' is 50 points are so, definitely less than the range of bias which most colleges accept, you are correct. How does one explain that in three of the four categories whites have the lower minimum score?
  
  
• The data proves that NAPS is being used to provide over 50% of the Div1 football team and 75% of the lacrosse team, and that current NAPS enrollment is over 33% recruited athletes.
  
  The total percentage of recruited athletes at NAPS must reflect the Brigade as a whole. I always thought it was around 25% but recently I heard 31%. This confirms it. Only 2/3 make it through NAPS. I suspect the attrition among athletes is higher than NAPS as a whole. I can understand the 50% football. However, the other 25% of lacrosse goes to Foundation. This I don't understand. Almost redshirting. Seems we would have a better lacrosse team. Remember, in the past athletes via NAPS contributed heavily to our minority goals. And athletes make pretty darned good officers. Again, I feel this is an other entire subject and not sure that it indicates my definition of two-tiered.
  
  

 

[Luigi59]

From the story, this sounds like a 2 tier school to me.

Of course it is. Only those who don't want to admit it can't see it.

Hate to say this stuff is really true but my son, who was showed around this week at USNA by a prior NAP student read this article and shrugged saying all the kids there know this is true but they want a good football team too.

Of course.

Unless you want us to believe, as some here do, that the entire article is just a huge lie, a huge smear, and a huge conspiracy of the Annapolis Capital against the USNA.

All is well, nothing to see, they're just making things up.

USNA does indeed recruit qualified blacks in districts which are historically underrepresented. This explains the increase of direct entries over the past two years. They will not waste their time with a candidate in a competitive district who has no chance of admission. Forty or so identified underrepresented districts last year, 40 direct appointments. Not a coincidence.

Thank you, you just proved a two-tiered admissions policy exists with your answer.

A 5% difference may be a statistical anomaly. A 10% difference? A little harder to explain as a coincidence or a statistical aberration.

But an almost 50% difference in the chances of a qualified minority candidate being offered an appointment and the qualified non-minority candidates being offered proves, beyond ANY doubt, there is a two-tiered admissions system.

Thank you for proving it with your answer.

 

[Mongo]

Thank you, you just proved a two-tiered admissions policy exists with your answer.

That USNA does everything possible within their power to ensure that each and every congressional district is represented at the Academy as stipulated by federal law is not a two-tiered system. It is just the opposite, an equal opportunity system.

 

[aglages]

"The Naval Academy's argument is 'They have leadership skills,' " the officer said. "That is pure B.S. 'Leadership' is never discussed by the admissions board. We need another (football player) or African-American, plain and simple."

First and foremost, every record is evaluated by the Admissions administrative staff..
Unless someone on the board questions it, the leadership as presented on the application stands on its own.

It is impossible for a board to evaluate a record without considering leadership fully.

Consider fully...or discuss? Who is actually awarding points for leadership potential...the Admissions administrative staff or the board reviewing the record? Is it possible that only URM students with great "leadership skills" are applying? Are there many non-URM candidates that do not have some kind of varsity sports experience? Is it possible that only those athletes that have skills good enough to play at a Div. 1 level also have some magical intangible leadership potential?

 

[luckymacy]

in a way, this helps smart kids who got in strictly on 'merit'

My son read a few of these posts and then also told me that the kids he met don't mind how the 'bottom academic performers' got in. Theory is the book smart kids are helped out because the high school 3.85 and up GPA kid and the ones with the almost perfect SATs and took a lot of AP and honors courses are going to do a noticeable notch better in the academic area and in the end that helps them get the assignment they want. My son also said the Submarine Push is alive and well and the kids know they only pick the really smart kids, like those with a 3.8 GPA or so higher. So the theory is to do so well you get whatever assignment you want (aviation, SEAL) or do a couple notches less than that so you won't get subs!

 

[Luigi59]

That USNA does everything possible within their power to ensure that each and every congressional district is represented at the Academy as stipulated by federal law is not a two-tiered system. It is just the opposite, an equal opportunity system.

The data obtained under the Freedom of Information Act proves:

• If you are a qualified minority applicant, you have a 91% chance of getting an appointment. Not quite a guarantee, but pretty darn close.
  
  
• If you are a qualified non-minority applicant, you have a 55% chance of getting an appointment. Little better than a coin flip.

A difference that cannot be explained by chance.

Tell us all again how that is not a two-tiered system.

 

[aglages]

Theory is the book smart kids are helped out because the high school 3.85 and up GPA kid and the ones with the almost perfect SATs and took a lot of AP and honors courses are going to do a noticeable notch better in the academic area and in the end that helps them get the assignment they want.

While I can understand why those already admitted to the USNA like the "dumbing down" of the competition, the question should be whether those 'bottom academic performers' should be taking the place of better qualified candidates based on race or ethnicity. At least for those already admitted it would seem that indeed "every dark cloud does have a silver lining" (no pun intended).

Anyone have any feedback from current Mids concerning the following statement?

"The unfairness is absolutely real," said the officer, who agreed to speak on condition of anonymity.

It's unfair, the officer said, to admit marginal students ahead of their better-prepared counterparts, and Naval Academy officers and capable midshipmen are under constant pressure to tutor the underachievers.

"We are pouring money and staff time into getting them through," the officer said. "The drain on the paid staff and the nonpaid staff is enormous."

 

[Mongo]

A difference that cannot be explained by chance.

Of course it can. If the goal of the Academy is 100% Congressional district representation, all underrepresented districts, minority or majority must be targeted. They are. I have seen it personally in a majority Caucasian district. The most effective way of targeting these districts is to "interest the qualified, not qualify the interested" as they are prone to remind us BGOs. So, interested qualified will return a much greater yield than a cross section of applicants from the general population as a whole who have not been targeted. Don't read too much into it. It's actually good to see that their recruiting is effective.

 

[Mongo]

Consider fully...or discuss?

Semantics. I was simply pointing out that by simplying acknowledging that a board member had seen the record he was acknowledging evaluation of leadership. However, in my very limited experience of observing records before the board, I have never seen one where leadership potential was not one of the primary discussions, and understanding the system somewhat, I could not imagine it..

 

[GSKeziah]

From what I've gotten to know about college admissions (not just service academy based) is that colleges want quality well rounded leaders more and more each day. The way I see it is anyone could study for the SAT and do well because they basically tell you all the things you will need to know to do so, while GPA just shows how much you cared during your high school career, and colleges realize this. Another statistic one should consider is that if a minority from a bad community has just the qualifying scores they gotta be more likely to be a leader then his or her counterpart because even if they aren't a big deal somewhere else but for their community could be a huge thing which for me, justifies giving a slight favor to minorities especially one from a bad community.

 

[raimius]

I have seen quite a few IC athletes struggle in academics and military areas. Part of that is certainly due to their more rigorous daily schedule. Unfortunately, I have heard stories from ICs that cast considerable doubt on the integrity of the recruiting system and culture of some of the teams.

Some of the absolute BEST and WORST cadets I saw were ICs. The ones who could balance everything and still perform well often amazed me. Those are the people I want leading our military. Unfortunately, the ICs that did not balance their duties also attracted a lot of negative attention...

Disclaimer: This is a non-IC perspective from a USAFA grad.