Could you please explain this to me in simpler terms?
'Best and brightest' article from hometownannapolis.com
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I think what he is trying to say is that for a minority to have what would be considered qualified scores in a lower performing area would put them at the top of their peer group as opposed to a non-minority with similar scores would be considered average.
Yuh that is exactly what I mean. Extreme example would be Phil (not a real person) a minority who grew up in a ghetto where his brother got shot gang wars going on in his school but he still managed a 25 on his ACT, president of student council and ran varsity track for 4 years. Then there is Jimmy grew up with everything going for him 25 on his ACT same leadership/extracurricular activities. Now wouldn't you favor Phil based on his hardships probably making him a better leader?
Just_A_Mom
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Sounds like the authors would advocate closing the Prep school. If the existence of the prep school is evidence of a two tiered system then so be it but this is not new. The Prep schools have been around for decades.
Perhaps 40 years ago the Academies could not get enough qualified candidates without sending some to the Prep school - these days this is clearly not the situation.
In reviewing the two tables of statistics - I am not sure that SAT's are evidence of a two-tiered system. I would rue the day when our Service Academies accepted candidates based on the SAT. It's pretty commonly known that the SAT is not a perfect test, by any means. I have seen some pretty smart and capable students be unable to get a 500 in verbal yet do very well in college.
The SAT is a biased test that favors kids from high income, low minority communities. Demographics are changing, many minorities (yes, legal ones) come from families where English is not the first language. These kids are at a disadvantage in taking the test.
The SAT is a guideline only - you can't get an 800 by guessing but scoring low doesn't not an idiot make.
Folks need to remember that the Service Academies are America's academies. Their mission is to provide Officers in their respective branch's. The mission is NOT to provide a free education to the kids who score the highest on the SAT's.
Perhaps 40 years ago the Academies could not get enough qualified candidates without sending some to the Prep school - these days this is clearly not the situation.
In reviewing the two tables of statistics - I am not sure that SAT's are evidence of a two-tiered system. I would rue the day when our Service Academies accepted candidates based on the SAT. It's pretty commonly known that the SAT is not a perfect test, by any means. I have seen some pretty smart and capable students be unable to get a 500 in verbal yet do very well in college.
The SAT is a biased test that favors kids from high income, low minority communities. Demographics are changing, many minorities (yes, legal ones) come from families where English is not the first language. These kids are at a disadvantage in taking the test.
The SAT is a guideline only - you can't get an 800 by guessing but scoring low doesn't not an idiot make.
Folks need to remember that the Service Academies are America's academies. Their mission is to provide Officers in their respective branch's. The mission is NOT to provide a free education to the kids who score the highest on the SAT's.
Thanks.
For admissions purposes should URMs be evaluated against their own peer group or the peer group they will have to compete with at the USNA? Certainly the USNA could then claim that their Mids are the best and the brightest of those applying from their race or ethnicity. Not quite as catchy as just the "best and brightest"...but perhaps more accurate?
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I don't think the article or stats indicate that Jimmy and Phil have the same ACT.
Why do the SAs and the vast majority of civilian college require SAT scores if they are so flawed? Evidently SAT scores are just fine until they don't tell you what you want to hear. Maybe we could use the SAT scores from just the non-URM candidates and evaluate the URM candidates on leadership potential instead. Oh wait.....
breadcrumbs
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http://www.teachersofcolor.com/2009...-minorities-to-u-s-military-academies-112109/
I believe the information in the above article is germane to this discussion. A very interesting look at the 'flip side' of the appointment process. Mind-boggling that some MOC's have nominated just 8 people in FIVE years to all academies!
I believe the information in the above article is germane to this discussion. A very interesting look at the 'flip side' of the appointment process. Mind-boggling that some MOC's have nominated just 8 people in FIVE years to all academies!
My bad. I didn't realize that wanting the best and brightest appointed to the USNA by evaluating the whole person and admitting the best and brightest without regard to race or ethnicity was the same thing as saying I wanted the USNA to provide a free education to kids who score the highest on the SAT's. Thanks so much for explaining that to me.
Now that I understand what the mission is not...perhaps you can help me understand why the USNA doesn't just publish this information without requiring a Freedom of Information Act request? Gee...you'd think they were embarrassed or something.
Perhaps they could publish SAT/ACT scores along with average PT scores broken down by race/ethnicity and gender. If an AA female realized that she had a 97% chance of being admitted if she were "qualified" then maybe more would apply? URM recruitment might increase if they knew where the bar was being set. The opposite could be true for Caucasian males; don't have 700+ SAT/ACT scores in M/CR and max on your PT....don't waste your time unless you are a recruited athlete.
Do you think that URM candidates are requesting nominations in these Congressional districts and the MOCs are just refusing to nominate them, or are there just not many applying for noms?
I was just using ACT scores as means to compare the two to make a point showing that both candidates were equal as far as profile goes and why it would be justifiable, in my eyes, to choose the minority with hardships rather then the counterpart.
You have hit the nail on the head. USNA has gone into these 20 districts and a few others, found QUALIFIED candidates, gotten them interested in the Academy, and they have applied and been appointed. This is the "two tiered system" which certain posters on this thread find so appaling. Sad, isn't it?
Incidentially, each and every one of these districts have made inroads to alleviate this problem.
Just_A_Mom
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Why do the SAs and the vast majority of civilian college require SAT scores if they are so flawed? Evidently SAT scores are just fine until they don't tell you what you want to hear. Maybe we could use the SAT scores from just the non-URM candidates and evaluate the URM candidates on leadership potential instead. Oh wait.....
Good Question - they require them because it's basically the only game in town.
The bias on the SAT is very well documented. Even elite colleges have recognized this and will consider many other factors besides the SAT.
The SAT (and to a lesser extent the ACT) are the only nationwide tests given to high school students to assess aptitude or achievement.
It is impossible to compare GPA's and even transcripts because they vary so widely. This is why admissions uses a combination of factors - they want to know the ability candidates have to do academic work and how they stack up against their peers. They also want to know what classwork they have attempted and how well they did.
Clearly, if you get a 700 on the Math SAT, this demonstrates that you have the ability to handle college level Math - Calculus and higher.
However if you score a 550, then you need to bring other evidence of ability to the table - coursework and grades.
Admissions is very well versed in the ethnic and socio-economic bias of the SAT. In fact, the College Board (the company who makes the test) admits this and publishes very comprehensive data on this each year.
The College Board urges admissions offices not to use the SAT solely to make an admission decision.
Garbage. Increasing noms and appointees from MOC districts that have been historically making too few has nothing to do with a "two tiered system" of admissions. Some posters are getting desperate in their attempts to explain why the USNA is appointing URM candidates with such glaringly sub-par SAT scores.
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That's a great question aglages. And honestly, I have no clue and I wouldn't even venture to guess. Do you have any thoughts to that? It would be very interesting information to posess, that's for sure.
Mongo- it is indeed sad, a shame really. These MOC's need to do a better job of outreach because frankly, they are doing a disservice to their constituents while not fulfilling their constitutional duty.
Therefor the SAT (and to a lesser extent the ACT) are the only way for the SAs to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
Solely? Sounds like a good idea. Maybe that's why the USNA evaluates the whole person. Does the suggestion not to use the SAT solely to make an admission decision mean that College Board doesn't think they should be part of the admissions equation? I have yet to read any posts on this thread that suggested that admissions decisions should be determined solely on the basis of a person's SAT score.
How about this idea: All NAPS graduates are given the SAT and ACT test in May before graduating and only those scoring in the top 50% percentile of the entering USNA class receive appointments. Certainly having an extra year of college prep should level the playing field when competing with students that are taking their SAT tests as HS juniors and early seniors? If the USNA can't prepare them academically in a year then maybe they shouldn't be appointed to the USNA. Just an idea...
Aglages, I agree with the whole two-tiered system as you are pointing out. The only thing I disagree with is that the SAT really indicates how a person will succeed in college. I have an A- in AP English Language and Composition (aka the writing AP English). This AP course is probably one of the hardest in my school with the hardest english teacher. My highest score on the PSAT writing section was a 500. Does this mean that I am not a good writer, or I will not do well in English in college. I don't think so. However, I do believe that the SAT is a test that rewards hard work and preparation. I also know a handful of my peers that are doing well in Honors Pre-Calculus. Yet, they only did mediocre on the math part. They can definitely handle college math. This is why I am glad that the service academies use this whole person score. The SAT is not infallible, but I will admit it is the only way you can compare someone from NY with someone from ND.
Yes. I think Mongo was correct when he said the USNA (and the other SAs) have gone into these areas and tried to educate and excite prospective applicants. I believe that education probably extended to the MOCs and their staffs concerning the process and the need to proactively encourage their constituents to apply to the SAs.
Mongo and I disagree on whether the USNA is appointing the best and brightest without regards to race and ethnicity, and of course that was the major theme of the newspaper article quoted by the OP.
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Ectriso: This example is one of the reasons that standardized testing was initiated. If you were to take AP English Language and Composition in my local school would you get an A-? What is the average CR SAT scores for the students in your AP English Language and Composition class? I can tell you in my local HS that the students in the AP English classes average 650+ on their CR SAT scores. The difference in competition and the level (quality) of teaching varies considerably between school districts. There are HS that do not give grades for NOT doing your homework. If you do it you get extra points towards your grade but failing to turn in homework does not effect your grade. Would an A- in AP English Language and Composition at that school be as hard to earn as an A- in yours?
Standardized testing is not perfect but some common yardstick has to be used to evaluate all students equally...regardless of where they attend school. How else will an SA evaluate whether they can succeed in such a demanding academic environment?
I wish you the best when you take your SATs and good luck with your SA applications.
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